the, the, the, as well as war on gun also has found an area with an intensity the military and let's say, hasn't been seen since the 2nd world war. most of the women were you supplied by the united states. is this 4 different to one of those in terms of its scale and space? this is inside storage, the

hello welcome to the program on top of the crime. israel is one guys that has killed more than 17000 palestinians, injured tens of thousands and fullest, almost 2000000 people from their homes, many of which have been destroyed. palestinians comp leave gaza. the narrow strip of land say it is not only one of the most densely populated areas in the world, but now one of the most boomed, some military analysts say the scale of israel's attack succeeds that of all the mass is trunks and modern history, such as the allied forces destruction of tristan and germany in world war to the civilian death toll and the right i would stop being killed has also not been seen in modern times. how much of the wave and re israel use is supplied by the us, which is called for the protection of civilians. is that possible or is it a deadly contradiction with palestinians, the victims? we'll be discussing that without gifts and just a few moments. but this, this report from fence and monahan on israel's methods of dis in garza,

israel's boar and gauze that has caused major devastation around 70 percent of buildings in the north district are in ruins. more than 17000 palestinians have been killed and the route 85 percent of gauze is 2300000 people have been forced to move some from their hospital beds. many countries, including the united states, have cooled them israel to do more to protect civilians. is realize the most sophisticated one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world. it is capable of neutralizing the threat posed by him us while minimizing harm to innocent men, women and children. and it has an obligation to do some european nato member countries such as the u. k, italy, in germany or among those who supplied israel with the weapons used in this war. but israel's main military and financial factor in the united states. that's been the case since its creation with widespread support for both democratic and republican administrations. u. s. provides israel with miller $38.00 or

$3800000000.00 every year. much of it is used to by states of the art weapons. in the early days of the war. us president joe biden assured israel, it was received everything needed for the campaign against him. off the united states stands with israel. we will not ever fail to have her back. we'll make sure that they have the help their citizens need. and they can continue to defend themselves. while international criticism is growing, is really showing little sign of changing its tactics or strategy. and since the beginning of the war, the us is only strength and support vinson monahan for inside story. well, let's look at the scale of israel's war on gaza. this whole file exceeds that of previous conflicts. there. for example, in 2014 is riley forces killed about 2200 palestinians windows attack the strip compared to the war and you cried weird roughly,

10000 civilians have been killed in nearly 2 years. and just 2 months, israel has killed more than 17000 palestinians. these were the army, uses a wide range of weaponry. some precision weapons, such as small bombs and missiles launched from helicopters and guided to the targets. but the others are intended to destroy large areas and penetrated reinforced structures. these riley army has dropped 900 kilogram films on gallons of during this war. according to the wall street journal, the u. s. has provided 100 of these known as bunk combustible items. okay, let's bring in now just now in pittsburgh, pennsylvania is colin clock research director at global intelligence and security consultancy. the saw find group in boston. the u. k. is patrick barry, the defense and security analyst at the university of boss and in london, the sample i. freeman, a research coordinator at campaign against tried in the u. k. thank you very much

for joining us on inside story. so that fits will call in if i can begin with you, can you just give us your initial thoughts on the scale and this of, of destruction in gaza in terms of the number of civilians killed in a very short space of time. how would you characterize what is happening at the moment? a yeah, it's a massive and overwhelming humanitarian catastrophe. i think in the introduction you mentioned 17000 civilians killed, which is just an unbelievable loss of life. uh, the images that we're seeing every day from gaza or heart wrenching and i think, you know, as the us secretary defense lloyd austin, spoke about recently. are these rallies whatever tactical victory they're getting will come at a strategic loss because of the images that the world seeing on a daily basis. and i think i completely agree with the secretary of defense,

austin, i think a lot of what's happening right now is counter productive. and this hot to eliminate or destroy or rather get come us. uh, you know, at what cost is, but i would ask you a picture if we can just continue on with with that. so the strategic last that as well could, sorta here, i mean, is role is constantly right from the very beginning of this was said that it's, i'm, is to want from us, of the face of the us from a military perspective. i mean, is this ariel bowman campaign that we've seen for 2 months now? is this the right way to go about trying to do this? but it's easier. why is natal, i'm, i'm, you know, on the, i know i elation, strategic a missed call on this point. that i had earlier, you know, all how to do a survive in some form. and that's one defense here. and it's very hard to completely eradicate any terrorist groups the, you know, 20 years at least to show a. so the bombardment. yeah. it's easy way to do that, the stand off, obviously as maybe the intelligence was call it not being here from numerous

different reasons. so there, there are eyes and ears ends of the guys, as jeff are not as good as it were. other was at one point on them and as a result you, you select your sign off munitions, new, bombard the heavy reliance as you mentioned on the us to keep your, your thoughts rolling. i'm, i'm currently again the targeting for the targeting sales here. and they crucially the idea what this hinges on this bombardment, and he's in tense isn't tennis in relation to low, so it's intense in relation to what we saw happen in search. it's intense in relation to the, from the bottles and mario paul. and upon move probably on a similar intensity, but the difference for those urbanized bottles with this most of the civilians are left. yeah. and they're being called at or us to get people that that's the cruise it so that's why we're seeing 2nd we, it's incredibly densely populated area of highly urbanized. so when you're in your introduction, when you talked about the same kind of damage to buildings as the 2nd world war.

yeah, it is. but there's a, there's a, there's a and i've had them in tier of everything being condensed, which is, which is actually adding to it as well. doesn't excuse it, but it helps start to explain some of the reasons why we're seeing. so i put casualty and destruction that was, but also it comes back to this idea of that, munitions that they're selecting on the principles under no of our conflict with your bank proportionality, which must be balance the risk. disobedience must be buttons to the concrete and direct military gains to be made from taking that action. and that's ultimately for audio from the lawyers to understand after they being attacked. yeah, those, those about idea of proportionality is not actually written down exactly what that should be. so in the targeting cells, they draw a radius, is that right? and right where they think they are, they can say that we didn't think there were that many civilians there. and they can say that this on us come out or is incredibly important and therefore we're selecting or there's a phone call there and we're selecting a 2000 pound and they can drop it on it. and if it kills, you know, 10 civilians,

a 100 civilians, you know, these ratings are just like, well we went through the process of course and i'm going to run a cold and i want to pick on a pick up on one thing that petrik was talking about there, i mean, is this campaign from is where i leaving actually working at this point in time because according to the as rarely, military of the 50000, thomas 5 is that i believe an hour and guys of up till about $5000.00 of them. that's on the roughly about 16 percent up to 2 months. what do you make of how effective the campaign has been to this point in time as well? you know, i was actually just this morning reading an article from robert paid in for affairs . one of the world's leading experts on air power and, and course of power. and, and, you know, i agree with the thesis of the article, which is the campaign is not working this far in this many weeks into the conflict to, to be at this point. to me,

it's clear that what's started as perhaps, you know, strategic military objectives has potentially more efficient to revenge and vengeance and collect the punishment. some would argue, as pape does in the article, so you know, be around a kid in $530000.00 from us military. not a total surprise to me, you know, given the infrastructure and guys are given the tunnel network. but this is hard fighting, this is dense urban warfare. and i think, you know, if you think about some of the high ranking homeless commanders, they were likely shuttled out of the country into potentially loving and into iran elsewhere before the actual attack on october 7th. so these really are not going to be able to replicate from austin and that says nothing about israel's military process is one of the most powerful militaries in the world. it says more about, you know, the feasibility of completely eradicating a terraced organization. so i think the aims and objectives need to be properly

scoped, and israel needs to immediately to begin thinking about how to attach it to military strategy, to some kind of a political outcome renegotiate settlement because that's the only way this is actually going to end. yeah, is sam, i want to go see you now. i know you and your organization had been investigating the items that are being supplied to is right. and what have you found so far as anything surprised you? it was a lot of the us on straight to israel is well known as you have a pull to side all be across the the, the fix we can come back to across. but this rattle uses in garza, the 35. so that's sixteen's coming from the us along with a lot of the munitions. and since october 7th, the us is supplied by december 1st, around 15000 palms and 57000 artillery shells. according to media

reports that includes those 100 bunk, combustible items that impact the school about israel, of course, produces a lot of its own. but of course, the loading straight has a very wide, an international supply chain. so a lot of companies and countries are involved in the production of act off like the 16 and f 35 with the 35 the the stove bytes of the u. k in particular produces 15 percent of the value of every ashcroft produce, including those that go to is vile. this includes things like the, the via fuselage, the a lot of electronic systems of the check to see uh all sorts of system of subsystems. and we actually go on the freedom of information requests,

a list of all the u. k. companies that are involved in this program. and it is, it is dozens of companies that are involved. now, we don't go into any new searching fights they've been supplied since the most stuff said, but come back to draw, especially in, i mean, it's kind of a pain like this. need a constant supply of spat pots. so undoubtedly, all the truck that is read all task is going to good continually needing new spazz from all from all of most of these companies involved in this international supply chain. i want to go to you now patrick, you touched on this a little bit before, but can you just give us a little bit of historical context? i mean, how does this compare? you mentioned most of it, how does this compare with other foaming campaigns that we have seen over the last few decades? well yeah, most of was the direct comparison because in the 1st week of the is really response

. they dropped more bombs. i think it was states that isn't that in the us of the scholarly some partners dropped against the ice, some of the above the popular most of and the most. and so that, that's part of the, you know, have it adds up to something reasons as uh, 6 years ago. um, you know, in terms of like, what fair, what we're seeing is becoming more organized as more, more cds. they're more densely populated. and my armies are actually smaller and so more for and the advantage to the defender means that it cover lapses in these areas, which makes it very, very destructive. we've seen a lot of destroyed mosul destroyed, start destroyed, and we see, and as i mentioned, mario fall in a box. so it's happening in a more, a broader trend of more of an ice board fair. and i think on, unfortunately for all those stuck in gaza, it's a particularly, as i mentioned, densely populated, densely urbanized, and therefore more useful environment. as i mentioned, again this,

this concept of proportionality, which is obviously, you know, for example, i served and i've got a son in the british army and we, in 2008. we were in a fairly pretty rough place, co signed in where we took a lot of casualties and halfway through the church, it just stops and you know, didn't casualties. we weren't the lead, fire easy, one method. these are more hers anymore. they're fairly small in terms of lisa leslie, because i'm calling in a 105 millimeter guns. this is that for, you know, an order of magnitude way below. watch a lot, lot lot of is right. are using at the moment. and actually a situation which is relatively same or it was a highly intensity kind or insurgency campaign. but again, a secretary lloyd said, you know what we're trying to do there was separate the surgeons, the bar code kyle, up on essentially from the people as best to be good on the is really just completely lacking. as carla mentioned, the, it's just creating a counterterrorism nightmare i would say for the next decade in the region and

beyond. and uh and so, you know, another course instead of stand off air power kind of being, especially in the 2nd phase after the cease fire. could it be much more court on this, on a tear start to gain the intelligence picture you need, you can be done showing that promised in use in their reward funds if i'm asked after this. yeah. after want to be more of them in the, you know, and not in their name, but, um, and start to build the intelligence picture. again on user special forces and surveillance advantage, which you're going to need to build up again. so basically get in there on the 13th for the grades that i'm off the military wing, especially as to absolute minimum that you can. yes, calling for dick has countries have to sort to to bomb their enemies into submission, but also to try and share to a civilian morale. i mean, the theory is that when push the breaking point populations what she rises up and, and get pushed back against their own governments. well, i mean,

we have seen that not with, with russia informing you crime, that obviously hasn't been worked. there didn't work. when the germans bones the u . k. and world war 2, when the allies bones germany extensively and we'll go to as well. do you think that there is any chance of it working here? it just flies in the face of the empirical evidence that we have on counter insurgency. i spent 10 years at the rand corporation, i think tank in the united states, and was lucky enough to be able to have several years carved out and devoted my time to studying every single insurgency from the end of world war $2.00 to 2009 out of $71.00 in total based on our coding schema. and we found that historically what we called an iron fist approach, which is certainly what the as rarely as are pursuing at the moment, is counter productive and actually the counter insurgents that pursue that approach . so my call is, you know, scorch stairs,

they lose more than they went. so they're actually saving the advantage to their adversaries. and i'm us and i would just echo something the patrick said earlier, when you know netanyahu, and the idea came out very early on in the conflict and said that the stated goal was to completely eradicate a moss. they essentially did hamas a huge favor? it was a strategic communications failure on the as early as far as, as patrick mess mentioned, all from us needs to do now the to declare victory. and i put, you know, quotation marks around victory is survive. and that's certainly something they're going to do. the question is, is it bass? i'm also going to survive. we know that's the case. how you know, how much impact will almost be. yeah. when all of a sudden don't smoke, there's an in what form will will they continue? the same. you mentioned, we talked a little bit about bunk of bombs and the usaa supplied what it comes to wall street journal, 100 to as well. can you just explain to people who might not know exactly what they are? just how deeply and how wide spread the destruction can be from just

a single bunk of a single bunk of them. and i love it best on, on the precise least, solid e of different munitions. but these are, as we told 900 kilograms, 2000 pounds bones. um and so that is an enormous amount of destructive power in well as about the positive side is a very, very densely populated area. and we have seen cases like engine bali, u g come, where a single strike has killed dozens, if not hundreds of palestinians at one most, the civilians wouldn't go. we don't know if those cutoffs busters, but at any rate, the munitions that israel is using a clear they a big enough to cause such, actually devastating, totally disproportionate. dest and injury,

and destruction loads. and i'm responsible that my colleagues have a been talking about israel. if it's right, let's go is milk tree the tree of the how much the strategy doesn't make sense. but this as sub rule is, right? the ministers, the members of the can, that's set to been saying if that goal is to actually deep, populate gods to make the entire costs a strict on live for both and falsely population into each. it then kind of does make sense. okay. i guess because these are supplied by the united states. patrick, i mean is giving israel these weapons as the us explicitly endorsing the use. and then i guess we take it to step full. the fear of the is the us complicity and any civilians that accounts by the as rarely use of us weapons. yeah, we're just on the, on the phone cost. i think so usually when they do these weapons tests,

i do it if they're trying to work on the policy, they usually do them in the open. right. so it's obviously more nissan in our budget. buildings collapsing, arrange a bulk of booster. uh, normally as far as i understand, depending on the payload, what, how the, the so what we call in the, in the british ministry at least the last area of at least a 100 meters radius. so that, you know, draw that around to make, get the diameter. and so just saw not, yeah, no god, it's an interesting one. clarity, there's different and call them might be better. uh, you know, position, speak about the inside the ministration to me. but i think the search certainly different people pulling in different directions about what should be done here. um, well the vitamin seems fairly fair that he's gonna stay steadfastness, import for as well. certainly, you know, the us sounds a lot of leverage here, but wanted to use and, and of course, you know, where does it get to? it's all your know, but it is real. got it's, and ms. solve this problem, for example, to protect itself is to us. so i think the wheels will come off the wagon,

although they do have an indigenous on the, you know, big indigenous uh, industrial military, industrial facilities. the, i think the, the wheels would come off the wagon on terms of the air campaign pretty quickly. if america decide is it the enough, was enough right to kill, and i will throw it over to you. they know, i mean how much pressure is on the uses to scale back uh the, the amounts of money in width instead it is giving, is israel, i guess it depends of pressure from home the united states, when you look at the domestic politics here is getting pulled in 2 directions, you've got a, you know, the, the evidence to support as real, particularly in an election year. at the same time, if you look at the younger voters, jonesy, and below the demographic show that you know, that kind of demographic is unhappy with buttons handling tend to be more pro palestinian and pro is rarely so, you know, i think the administration is trying to read the tea leaves, read the polls here,

but instead of playing politics, the more important than the moral thing which has to be to do with right. and to apply maximum pressure on the as rarely as to limit civilian casualties. and to, to not drop that as a talking point, right? this isn't just something on a checklist that you go down and say, oh yeah, you know, we should mention that as well. uh, this is essential, right? because the united states is associated with this conflict. and if you look at the numbers dead, this is not something that's going to fade from the headlines. this is a moral staying on the united states. and so i think if the administration can wield influence and we know that it has in the past, it needs to do so and it needs to continue applying that pressure and not stop. and sam mc international. and oh sorry, petrik you on to jump in there. i was just going to jump into, i think also, you know, if this has been happening and, and you train and obviously terrible things have happened in ukraine and at the rest of the times in terms of getting training and civilians. but if this was happening and you find the western condemnation would be much higher and on,

i think we, you're looking at a position where the more crime scene should be put on the table and kept on the table. then he, if you cannot, you know that we will come to your lawyers and we will come off your target yourselves and it should be back by the goal settings as well. who, for, you know, all intents and purposes are still pretty quiet. they've been helping some of them in helping with the negotiations, but the general consensus seems to be boxed this problem in a box best they kind of get on with, you know, building their economies. that the model itself isn't thing internationally or can be done. yeah. okay. similar as we've seen in. yeah. and in the last few days, amnesty international put out a report saying that is wrong. does need to be investigated for possible war crimes . is that something that you and your organization agree with the absolute faith of, of, of causal will crimes with a, by his violin from us must be investigated. but there is overwhelming evidence that israel has been committing war crimes. the blockade on food, water, is it so

a whole try mrs. collective punishment without doubt. indeed, as a case the what israel is doing a many international lawyers, you know much more about it than me. the what is rails doing could actually be cost as genocide. and the united states especially, but also do k germany and not those that are on the israel can also potentially in the talk for aging. and the best thing for crowds, by supplying these weapons, continuing to supply weapons and components in the full knowledge of what israel has been doing, going to continue to do. and so thing i mean, the child says that drug bites and whatever actually be arrested, improved behavior vanishingly small. yes, thought. i think the american officials, british officials, alms company officials who are making these trends,

shipping option that backs legally. because the possibility that they could be in the frame for aging and investing more crimes in gaza is i think that reveal, or at least it ought to be. okay. cool, and we've got a couple of minutes. i wanna finish with you. this is where, i guess, how does this in this israel going to be allowed to continue bombing until it's hans content? do you think, to allow by whom, again, you know, who, who is the ultimate arbiter of, of this conflict. so i think unless the as rarely as make this decision to stop it, it's not going to my question is you know, to what, and what are the games? is it capturing and killing every time. also i value target. 1 is a, you know, totally attempting to designate a mouse is military infrastructure. is that even possible? and again, i'll go back to what i've been saying. so it's essentially october 8th, unless this military approach and campaign, an operational objectives are tied to some kind of political element,

then it's all for not because this really is have a term for, for what they've been doing, which is mowing the grass. right. and this, this can't go on any further to do this every couple of years to have these all out conflagrations in the region. there's gotta be some kind of in. and i think unless there's a, you know, a sustainable political solution here coming out of the back end of this fighting. we'll be back here a year from now, you know, 18 months from now though there will be no end. okay, thank you so much. oh sorry patrick, do you want to jump in the very quick. this is kind of sad thing to my that part is the exact thing around the the poles there were very said that maybe it's actually just to to drive the might. okay, thank you. we've run out of time that we really do appreciate you joining us here on inside story calling clack patrick barry and sand pill. i. freeman. thank you. well, thank you. as well for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i'll just say we're dot com and for further discussion goes, well facebook page, that's facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the

conversation on x. a handle is at a inside story for me. tell mccrae and the whole team here, bye for now the the latest news. as it breaks, i still have to claim the responsibility for the bombing up at the museum in morales city, security, and personal se, they're still looking into all possible levels with detailed coverage. the people here along the border receive virtually no assistance from the federal government at the united states from around the world. this is aging childrens hospital. we're saying that they've been receiving more than 9000 pages every day for us to expand that capacity. a number of days the humanity has opened the gates of hell or in those seats. is that mean orlando's effects? as the world discusses how to reduce emissions,

supposing an existential threat to humanity, a new oil rush is displacing. you've got the people empower, investigates, the relationship between the mikey oil giants of the global notes and the developing nations of the global south crude mistake. talk to of 200, just in the annual. besides the coming up this of states that the way it's on the way here it is. excuse my young and losing . you much cut that shortly after this problem the trust. do you understand that you understand the native bodies to target?

they do george taylor the and i'm told stories from asia and analogies here. the, [000:00:00;00] the, you're watching the news, our life from a headquarters, and i'm trying to navigate our coming up in the next 60 minutes. israel long shows a series of attacks across the gaza strip pitting multiple targets, including the japan year refugee camp and northern gaza. again, dozens of palestinian men are stripped and taken away by is really forces in

northern gossip is really forces carrier raids in the center of it all. my lot in the occupied westbank were also getting reports of raids and arrests from the