to all of the different does not do it all the nations have canceled the christmas celebrations and solidarity with the policy and can and because that and cause us. so we want to a lot people to the fight, but the people of palestine. i won't actually, i'm not celebrating christmas. the people of the town invested. you have my jesus was born. i'm not able to celebrate this. yeah. i was want us of involvement in dollars that. 2 all the issues as well, but i was in the escalating just so there is the scarcity of food opposed to dangerous. so this could precipitate assignment in the territory. also as winter is now upon us the most as communicable diseases which are ravaging the territory, little adding to a catastrophe that is affecting the territory. something which these power and say has to be sure to stop to. and that has to be done with international axes, demanding that, that'd be, as we saw it from the guy eval algebra, london the

let's take a look at some of these avenues now. and polls have closed in the democratic republic of congo is elections. that's off take a audit votes that have to be extended for 2 days because of logistical problems. the 1st provisional results i expected soon voters are choosing the president where choosing the president, as well as national regional and know for representative. the phones have taken place and made renewed fighting in the east. and these are the remaining $157.00 french soldiers have left the country. it ends more than a decade of french operations in west africa saw how region fonts is also close. it gets embassy in the share indefinitely. relations between the 2 countries deteriorated after the ousting of the countries present. mom advisor made a call in july of india as opposition to lions has been holding protests against the suspension of more than a 140 politicians from the ongoing parliament session. the governing b. j. p,

accused the opposition and peace of disrupting parliamentary proceedings after they demanded an official response on a security breach. also chambers last week, the opposition is accusing the b j. p of undermining democracy. and the coaching hong kong has up hell, charges us edition against media tyco and jamie ly. he's accused of conspiracy to publish dishes publications andre colonial era law. but he also faces several other charges under the james. impose national security law less than use for not on algebra upfront. that makes the limits the world slow down. we stand for as homes with fits of global nichols reserves. indonesia is points to leave the global, the battery industry. we definitely manage our abundant resources. role in solar

energy, harnessing offerings, 75 percent of global carbon credits. essential. committed to being fine, mental protection, enhancing investment climate. digital licensing, your better tomorrow is israel's use of artificial intelligence to select target to this one doesn't leading to more civilian depths. that conversation is coming up. but 1st, the visual began as compartment of as a we've seen a historic outpouring of support for palestinians across the middle east and the wider muslim world. how long this momentum less and what's the impact of israel's killing of palestinian literary and cultural figures in god? i've asked that question to the renown author inactive is approximately to the bottom level to thank you so much for joining us on upfront. thank you for having me, mark. we've seen a mass of outpouring of support for palestine in your home country and park is done

since the beginning of israel siege on gaza or protests in the 10s of thousands have been held in cities all around the country. with little assignable meant them slowly. why do you think the people of pakistan have been so outspoken in their support? i can start them has historically always supported the palestinian struggle. and of course the ending of apartheid in palestine. it's a relationship that goes back really as to when both countries were made in the sense by the sun is born in 1947 and is wireless created in 1948, but by the stuff is always had a communion with, with the policy and people we see from the united states to the united kingdom, to most of europe, i'm beyond to companies like also that the people are whole heartedly in favor of a permanent ceasefire. whereas the governments know,

we see people demanding certain action from their college, which they government such as ignoring. so i don't think we've ever seen a split so wide, and i don't think that's unique to just focus on. but of course, the by study, people have been protesting like people are all over the world. and i think this little movement will continue on december 7th. israel killed the renown palestinian writer academic an activist revised a lot of years as well as 6 of his family members. over the past 3 months. israel has killed more than 18000 guys, is wiping out entire families, in fact, wiping out entire bloodlines. and yet it is killing, specifically, has elicited in an outcry. can you explain to us who he was and why his death is being felt so powerfully in the last 2 months, israel has to a to 9 journalist. i believe the numbers tabs at the killed over

a 100 you and beliefs agency stuff. they have killed palestinian medics and health workers in the hundreds and they have also killed rice's us as musicians, children, newborns. all these depths have been painful to watch. but this was, was the voice of the horror that was on the full thing. so many of us were fatherly . the air strikes the daily struggle to get food, the lot power cuts, the internet cuts through to 5 tweets through his instagram stories. and his is will to survive his poetry, his talking about the impact of literature, the experience of writing that is one of the greatest human experiences because it does testability to survival, not just suffering. and i think as well,

many of us know that this is really not just a war about october 7th. it's not just a war about how much. because in that case, why are premature children being killed in nearly to more it's like doctors being killed. my daughter, thank you. but why is the poet as if i was, what is a poet and a translator? and it's shakespeare scores that are on the right to be targeted in his family who belong with his simply it's, it defies logic. it defies everything that the pain of his death, for many observers is compounded by what in his that signifies in terms of the loss of art, the loss of culture, the loss of literature. of course, as you mentioned, science of di, journalist of died, artist have died. a major cultural sites have been destroyed, churches mosque when people lose the art, when people lose their lives and people lose their culture. what's at stake to

every se, every thing is the state you're losing. um, it's a patrimony of culture. it's heritage, it's survival, it's. it's a record so you know, when we talk about genocide, it's not just the absolute source or population. it also means you're moving them from records. that means you're moving testimony. it means you're moving on. it means you're moving poetry, moving music. it means erasing the lives of ordinary people. and i think when we talk about the destruction that we're seeing in god is to reduce god that nothing to take, not just holes, but also libraries, not just hospitals, but also universities. unless there be nothing left god that'd be known even a memory of a place that once was never will be again, not even in the pages of books. and i think that is really what is so horrifying

about this fine. so, you know, we know states are threatened by cultural figures. we know that brian has a powerful because they, they hold power to account. they keep a record of mine. that's to are of these kinds of night this. and that's why they accuse them, that's why they've always killed art literature writers, as you just mentioned, not only hold power to account, they also create space for us to understand i d as in a different way. i'm thinking about your work. for example, your novel, the runaways allows us to understand, through the lens of 3 young men who uh, become effectively radicalized in iraq through that lives were able to understand how complicated political violence is. how complicated the journey into political radicalization is. uh, there's no condoning of how mazda is coming of civilians. we're not justifying the ongoing treatment of hostages. you once it's something that, that stuck with me. you said,

even as i watched my character through terrible things, i'm more than the fact that they didn't have other choices. how is that idea? speak to what's going on with regard to the plight of palestinians at this moment? well, you know, we're talking today marked partly to discuss the fact that the use of life and, and his work and a lot of us came to know him through an interview he did where he spoke against the backdrop of is really strikes which as andre, behind him and all around him and he speaks through tears and the off what the world wants, palestinians to do to, to give up, to drown, to commit my suicide. and he said, very, moving me in that interview. he said, you know, i'm, i'm an academic, i'm, i'm a professor opposed to the most dangerous thing i have in mind who is, is a marker. but if they come from me, if they come into my house,

i will take that much around. so it's at the soldiers who have come to kill me. i think that at this point um, to keep garza as it has been kept under unable to locate a land siege. there was no apple. the nothing can get in. nothing can get out. everything for food to watch or as we have seen is controlled where you are not allowed to move freely on the left to speak freely. you are not allowed to engage freely. i don't quite understand what the world wants. um, that's a no way to justify violence, but when you push people against the wall, when you don't offer them a solution for the future that they will take any option that is open to them. but that's not just in the case of palestine. that's the case of ukraine, that's the case of any people anywhere in the world. and it has been disturbing to see you crazy and resistance of other eyes and celebrated in the west

as noble and profound. and then this a kind of resistance when it happens to be practiced by brand. so people demonized when the media picked up. um, but it just had sent me a young palestinian berlin standing out to him. his reading, the occupation soldier, pay misunderstood because she is a blonde and you know, fair skinned to be you create him on when the media slides. so i had sent me in front of send in girl was the premium. they will listen right to buy her break for the moment they found that she was supposed to have that conversation with them. either. we don't condone violence either. we don't accept a bother, i find them. so we do, and i've only ever seen the praise of accepted when it's why people do it yet.

another thing we think about in the open since october 7th is a kind of hyper visibility of women over the past 3 months. for example, there's been an emphasis on the visibility of women is rarely women at war with gaza. there was a headline in the times of israel, that red squad, a female idea of combat troops illuminated nearly 100 her mass terrace. while the article from the australian financial review reported that quote is ro is rarely female, only tank crews made history on october 7th, by fighting for mass emphasizing that the quote, slightly built soldiers showed, knows we mission, if at chilly this isn't exactly the feminist fantasy that many people in the vision um, it's absolutely not and i, i, i really think it's, it's be on the ranged to present a hyper sexualized female. so the some kind of feminism, it's not it's, it's christ,

it's vulgar and it's incredibly ugly. so the message that it portrays you comp claim from it isn't when you're killing uh perla, sitting in mother's comp, claim feminism. when your rifle is being in the hospital, you could play the 7 is a when there are children, a 25000 probably send in children have been often that cannot be cool, the success of feminist. another thing that happens a lot of times is now we think pink washing. i mean on november 13th let me give you an example. israel's official twitter account posted as a soldier, a photo of a soldier standing in front of a demolished gossip. and the soldier was holding a pride flag with in the name of love, written in english, arabic and hebrew. and the post claim that it was, quote, the 1st ever pride flag raised in gaza and usually stuff like that. how do you respond? mark,

i don't think there were enough words to convey the opposite perversity to hold a pride flag over the scene of a massacre over at the scene, the slow ser and then claimed some kind of ownership of law. and i think it is the most of the seen kind of pig washing in there. let's also remember that same sex marriage is not legal and is room is raised. have to go to another country to marry their partners if they happen to be clear. and then maybe they get that recognized initial, but it's not legal and these are and so to use the queer language, symbolism and history. well, they carry out what is essentially a college. it is the, the just the side of civilian to use them. uh, tried flags and played some kind of advancement is, is, is sort of a i, i,

i just don't think it can be taken seriously. i, oh, i don't. so you know, what do they know about clear lives in, in gaza or in the middle east, or in the most in world? nothing. you know, they don't know anything about our lives. they don't even see us as a human being. and anyone who has any respect for clear politics, clear liberation, knows that you cannot tie that to apartheid. you cannot apply that to occupation, but to low. i want to think about justice, these kind of big picture ideas that we talk about. you know what for you? does it take to get there? well i, you know, i think again as i'm not palestinian i, i comp time to speak for anyone. but you cannot talk about just this one or 2 pace and a brutal occupation is under way. and you cannot possibly talk about justice under

the confines of, of a siege of under apartheid. i, i certainly don't know my how they will be just as for these mothers who are giving birth under the most terrifying conditions that, that i can think of. i don't know what justice we can give those premature babies who are left to die because the hospitals were attacked. i don't know what justice we can ask for for not just a jobless would have been mother for telling us about this or but for the families who have been targeted and killed i, i wouldn't. i wouldn't even know where to begin, that i wouldn't even know how to ask. i think we always have to ask forgiveness. it's not just just that the to i wanna thank you for sharing your views with us and we appreciate your time. thank you for the a mass assess the nation factory. that was the headline on an investigation by 97

to magazine and local call into the is really military's artificial intelligence based targeting system called have sorta, which means the gospel english according to the investigation. the system uses a i to produce targeting recommendations at a faster pace. then a team of humans working the load would ever be able to do. do you want me to discuss this is laura nolan. she's a software engineer. any volunteer with a stop killer robots coalition. all right, thanks so much for joining us on upfront. good to see you again. how does hop sort of works? what kind of information would go into in a i, based on military targeting system like the um, well unfortunately i, what i can say is we don't know a huge amount for sure. and that's very typical for these kinds of military decisions support or automation systems. i mean, there's just a lot of secrecy that's involved, i suspect stuff there are probably using several different kinds of inputs. so we know that there's an awful lot of surveillance that happens in casa, for example, almost certainly there will be communications measured data and intercepts. there

will be very possibly human intelligence and also from cctv and uh facial recognition. and i know the sort of a visual inventory that they may have which might include a drone on satellite imagery. so essentially there's an awful lot of information going into the system from all sorts of sources sources. when i hear about this stuff for me as a late person, this sounds overwhelming. this sounds like the most cutting edge technology possible. but the thing i was wondering is, are there even more sophisticated a weaponry and in weapon systems then that, that are on the horizon then just have sorta, i don't think we know um, so for example broke, what i would say is hubs or is not necessarily a weapon system in itself. i think the must assess the nation and target factory was pretty active in terms of what it's doing is it's, it's trying to identify targets which will then be stuck with some other kind of weapon. it's pretty much i'm the decision support system but that,

that doesn't say, but that doesn't mean to say there's not a lot of concerns or, and it's um, so one of the big talking points around the system is that the scale limits it's, um, it's producing hundreds of targets per day potentially, and we know that at least 15 talk, $50000.00 targets up instruct, so far in the conflict. and so that's, you know, in the several hundreds per day. human being simply do not have the ability to go and to um, check in detail every one of those decisions that the systems making. and therefore, accountability is very much being handed over to the system, which as you say, we know very little about, we don't know how it's been tested, don't know how it's validated. we don't know what criteria it's using to come up with these targets whatsoever. although from the $97.00 to investigation with assistance seems to be geared towards prioritizing targets that are doing excess damage to civilian infrastructure and indeed potentially killing civilians. spencer port stops contracts laws of war which state that's when you make

a strike. you have to virginia for primarily military advantage, not to put pressure out of the population. the investigation sites, a former intelligence officer saying a human will review the targeting recommendation before an attack. uh, but this person also says the reviewer doesn't need to spend a lot of time on it. are there enough human safeguards put into the decision making structure here? when it comes to in a system like this? it's a great question. i think one of the big questions when you have to assess the risk or into any i system is to what extent are the safeguards around it in terms of um, humans in the loop. and in terms of the overall riskiness of what's being done as a result of these decisions, you know, i read the same article, you didn't st investigation, um, it absolutely points to insufficient human time and effort spent in reviewing these targets and targeting, targeting, particularly these kinds of jewel use targets,

so people and um, civilian buildings is extremely hard on time intensive. so no, i don't think they are from what i see. i don't think they are properly reviewing these targets and they are very much leaving it in the hands of the automation system. in a statement these really army claims that have sort of helps in, quote, causing great damage to the enemy and minimal damage to non combatants. now the dental and gov is now over $18000.00. many have made the case that advances and technology are designed to make more for and more precise that if it's more precise, it'd be safer. are you buying that argument? you know, absolutely. i'm not buying that argument. and this is something that you hear all the time, particularly from the more high tech military's. um, typically when military is the think that they have these more of these accurate, these precise weapons that they, that they feel able to use them in built up areas in urban areas in places, but a lot of civilians and civilian infrastructure around. and unfortunately, you know,

no matter how well you hit the particular point you're trying to hit and no matter how much, what you're striking is a valid military target. when you're using high explosive weapons in an urban area with civilians around you are going to do a lot of damage. so one of the side effects of more precision can actually convert it could, can perversely be more civilian damage and civilian heart. wow. so, so what do you do if the more precision that you sort of design for the more potential damage you have to civilian infrastructure to people in these areas that you describe? then what's the solution here from a technological perspective, from a design perspective, there isn't that that new world was technological solution here. her political solution is what's required if you want to save card civilians in the situation. there is no technical eligible type of logical solution. first saved, carting civilians in war. more position is not the answer to it. you quit google in protest over project maven. a contract for the us defense department. that would

use a i to analyze a drone footage. maven doesn't sound much different than have sorta has what you were afraid of. just become a reality. absolutely. yeah, this is exactly what i was thinking about 5 or 6 years ago when i was like google and when, when maven was coming down the line. you know, once you have all of this data coming out of the system, people will want to crunch that data and draw conclusions from it. and act based on those conclusions. no matter how strange your, your chain of causality on and indeed the legal basis for these decisions that you're making is the main thing was the surveillance machine. and that was analyzing people's movements. people, social networks, people have whole timelines for people's behavior and their past lives. and this is almost certainly want to hubs or is doing as well. very, very similar technologies. very, very similar. i'm problems with a new european union has just, if you don't need to govern the use of

a i in the european market. but the artificial intelligence act, as it's called doesn't apply to defense applications or military applications. did the, you missed an opportunity to properly regulate a military ai. how do you do that? how do you regulate ai and warfare? it's very different question. um, yes, um they only x is not focused on military applications whatsoever. and you know, in reality and the you act is probably not the right then you to be thinking about how the military applications are. they are technology at the right venue is probably the, the united nations, or some kind of increase you process to come up with legally binding rules and instruments to regulate these things among all nations. so how do you regulate that? um, well, my belief is that we should not be using technology to generate targeting information,

particularly when we come to the most sensitive and risky targets, which are people and still use targets. the reason for that is it's difficult problem to decide whether a individual person or a tool use building or do we use vehicles as a valid military target or not. we do not have technology that is capable of even beginning to decide whether somebody is involved in combat or as a member of an armed group. these measures are not something that you can tell by associated these matters are not something that you can you know tell with uh with, with like by deciding if somebody has been swapping the same card in their phone, these things are difficult and sensitive decisions. and um, they require a lot of data. um, a lot of human judgments to make judgements then. yeah, let me, let me just before we go, just that word, human judgment keeps coming back to me. all this stuff comes down to human decision

making, human judgments, whether we look at data or not, how we look at data. all this is a human judgments in yet much of the public conversation is about the killer robots . it's about the a i technology, should we be focusing more on humans and blaming humans rather than technology. we should be focusing on holding humans a comfortable for, for what is done in warfare. and um, we have, there are a lot of gaps and a lot of gray areas in international humanitarian law loads of work. but one is not a gray area. is that when you make a military strike, your objective has to be primarily to, to, to obtain this military effect. sometimes it is permissible under the laws of war for $230.00 to be collateral damage. but in this case, we have a very clear cut, legal problem, which is israel is making strikes with the primary aim of harming civilian infrastructure. and using the fact that there is that they believe that there is

a military target present as a stake. me for that. and i think that's something that people should be held accountable for. absolutely bought accountability cannot be transferred to any software system or on a computer system. lord, no, no, no. thank you for joining us on upfront. all right, that is our show upfront. we'll be back the a hearing. have you had any li says he has the support of 15000 m samantha shop economic land asking questions, what do you expect this particular for to translate when it comes to the us selection, refusing for the action? not just give you a sense of what is the target, this places i'll just see, it was teams across the world. when you closer to the foss with the story,

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and use our own algebra 0 for the back. people live in don't coming up in the next 60 minutes. after days of delay, the united nations security council of food is a watered down resolution for more humanitarian a to guys that but the us vito's a russian call find hagin, secession of cost city to it's still this concept 75 days.