the, the hearing the have you had really says he has the support of 15, implement the shelf economic land asking questions. what do you expect this particular for to translate when it comes to the us selection, refusing for the action? not just give us a sense of what is the target this places i'll just see, it was teams across the world. when you closer to the thoughts of the story. nivia has condensed germany's backing of israel against genocide challenges of the international court of justice. it says, given germany's colonial brutalities, but it should not support as well. so what's behind this furious diplomatic disputes of why now? this is inside story, the

hello welcome to the program. i'm adrian thinking. maybe a has fast. they criticize germany for intervening and defensive, as well as the international court of justice. south africa brought the case against israel, accusing it of committing genocide and guns up. now germany wants to appear at the court to make a submission. and suppose of israel may be condemned to move pointing to germany's own colonial era genocide, committed against its indigenous people. this is a story with many strands showing how the past into twins without present world. or i will get to our guest in just a moment, but 1st we will close some shoddy sets up our discussion at the tone of the law centrally, germany was the colonial rule of what his present dana media between 19 full and 19

o 8 german forces killing more than 70000 indigenous people. some referred to it as the 1st genocide of the 20th century. in 2021. berlin. acknowledge committing genocide in the media. now, in the skating criticism, against its former colonial rule, the media has condemned germany for supporting as well against genocide charges made bus with africa at the international code of justice. and the statement posted online may be in preston. hey, gauging gold eligible and to reconsider decision to intervene as a 3rd party in defense of his royal gen golf says jimmy is ignoring the depths of more than $23000.00 palestinians and defending what he calls genocidal and gruesome acts of the is rarely government. then the medium preston says, joe, me is failed to learn lessons from its colonial post game. and it is trying to dodge because they know if south africa succeed in this case. so

then they, then the next is germany because we're, we're, we're, we're going to do it due to a gentleman who will not finish what the gemini, so i was told that it is also with it. but let's do that and see really and, and gusta independence, the young people because the land is occupied while the colonial pos overshadows. new media is relation to germany. the holocaust has defined, bullets ties with his rent since the vote on costs. i began, the german government has increases on 6 votes by 10 fold. dutch then stated on does idea is germany stands by israel side. we will support the country and we support its right to self defense. the b b as president says, june equinox, mostly committed south to the un convention against genocide was supporting what it calls the equivalent of a hollow cost and genocide in gaza. and the criticism comes as judges at the hague,

a deal, a breeding after to day public hearing on the accusations of genocide in casa, is one, has rejected the claims indicated it's military operation. and casa, is in self defense, and to eliminate him off several countries, including the media anal backing. so that's what this case at the hate. let me pull some show these. i'll just see the full inside story. that's bringing out guess for today from the as capital with joined by which in the country or who is the permit chief of the overhead of traditional authority in the mid the up from up satellite and sweden which went by heading notebook from the northern africa institution from heidelberg and germany, the ties goldman, a senior research fellow with the max planck institute, with expertise on international and germany's colonial route and africa. i welcome to you. let's start with you. matthias. what do you make of germany's intervention

at the, the international course of justice? i shouldn't the country responsible for to genocides be actively looking to prevent the thought? absolutely. adrian, i cannot agree more with you. let's say that legally speaking, it's not entirely surprising that germany is making an intervention because in all santas, germany has intervened in previous cases, often to cite before the international court of justice, namely the case brought by ukraine against russia. and the case brought by the gambia against myanmar. so there is some presidential germany intervening in genocide cases that obviously due to germany's history. and there was a reason why it is particularly concerned about that. but let me say that i found the way in which germany announced its intention to intervene quite surprising as not to say disappointing because i think they have different ways and,

but she can and say that. and what i found, particularly as a particularly appropriate magic, is the way that they frame to south africa has complained as an instrument to the zation of the international court of justice. which means basically it thinks it's a legitimate suit. it's something that should not happen. and after all, we've heard during the pleadings in the past days or last week, and that is why it's a strong statement. definitely, i'm absolutely not surprised by the reaction on the, on the side of the bip. yeah. okay. that's bringing magenta and the baby as capital . what are we to make up the timing of the maybe as intervention here? can we say it is a genuine expression of salt as obviously with the people of casa? it's a thank you for having engine. um some of us intervention is our protocol because

uh we had a long history of collaboration with the published and integration organization all the time through the times that just some kind of fact was a precedent. so the case that so have you guys laws, this is a case that need be as a whole support, but it becomes a bit of a surprise to, to, to the city of i had to pull and the number of people that's tough or tim upset at the hands of the gemini, that our president, is now to seek jim anyhow, not talk of not being in the land. we see with a domestic convention. while at the same time, a government has cited with gemini for violating the sofa victims not to participate in the negotiations for giving the wisdom any about the german has not come into the general site and that will be

a full. i agree. so that given me much on the pay the money to what's a bilateral arrangement, the development age programs. and i mean the instead of paying their patients. so i think is a bit of a critique of uh, the precedent now to, to say, look, to many miles do that. i see why the now only cause issues we to me, we agreed not to do that much and to where the overhead or traditional authority it was that the, the traditional authority actually consulted ahead of the the, the presidents in intervention. and what did your organization make of it? this latest in division, we wouldn't not consolidate at all. we we, we have to do that and the social media is equally, we're also not consulted. we're not precedents the started to negotiate with the gym and the government's on to on the question on the patients. okay,

let's bring in the heading. what did you make of the president don? god's intervention that his somewhat on diplomatic language. indeed is very strong . like, rich rich is not in line, this huge road to come and see. and i think it simply highlights the uh, of friends with a me, pins 10 and president guy and go voiced in the bravo, blunt way. the adult frustration which is existing in a majority of me periods when they look at the german attitude, which they can see that as arrogance as hypocrisy and more of dominance then difference may be as well all the time on from do res, electricity pausing, of germany during the last years after germany finally admitted that what happened

at the beginning of the 20 searches century wants. in today's perspective, a general side which is a reservation, meaning there is no lead to relevance to what the estimate has been committed. and they were always told, not least, the agencies of the old lot hero and nama and the chief come, testified to that, that you cannot compare your case with the all cost. yeah, and the reference was made to this thing. you larry d, off now on our cost as a from that perspective often nama and all the available and the down arrow, and this time, the extermination strategy that was applied to them was not a singular experience. and i think that is songs in germany. i'm just the very day despite the admission of guilt and remorse, as failing to understand that is

a totally lack of empathy when it comes to the perspectives of the regions. and the president gun got the voice left frustration because, you know, they get agreement the yep. i can only underline what tending meta has just said, i think it's absolutely correct to state that germans are on domestic, under estimating what this costs us to people elsewhere in the world, particularly to the victims. and you know, the descendants of the victims off past 10, no size, could see germany and such a protection right now. and to see how many lecture the world has been. a lot of a diplomacy from gemini and that price. and i would say in some ways a police sincerely to break with a pos and make a difference in particularly, and relations profit to countries. and, you know, to actually gets to a states as a partnership at each level. but, well,

we heard in the past weeks has basically obliterated these f thoughts. i think you can restitution a lot of who took the art or a lot of human remains or as many as you want. if you don't follow up on that behavior when it comes to the suits brought by off by south africa, there have been many attempts that try to de la to mice, the south african government actually quite from the center of society, not only from the fringes, but also from, you know, from serious people in positions of power and that i find quite a quite set actually it, it, it really means that many people haven't understood, that's the time. so if you're repeating appear, it isn't all over chief catch you. i'll come back to you in just a moment, but while with what i just want to pick up on this point with, with heading once again, his germany ever offered a sincere apology for its actions. and in the may be an, an if knows, you,

i mean with that, what are we to make of germany's, i'm critical loyalty of israel as well. you see they have adopted standards and of a bit again in 2015 the german government, more in policy, admitted that what happened at the beginning of the 20 century. what's the general side? this folks for us know, for foreign ministry in odds ring requests from norfolk journalist set. if you want to call to genocide, then call to turn on site. and that's trick upside. that's really legal. shay sions, between the german as the beach and government, and those negotiations verify the form of apology. so just imagine from the point of view of nobody objects that is that a state that admits to have committed genocide and then starts in the meantime,

8 years of negotiations to reach a compromise in the trough, the joint declaration, how the apology is phrase and the reason for that is that this is supposed to be an apology, which has no legal implications. edit follows a slogan which already was issued 20 years ago, advisor then for him, the new stuff, your scott fish out who said no apology, which is relevant for reparations negotiations. between the meat john and german, the real focused on the issue is that germany wants desperate to avoid a precedence. that's the recognition of the general side in south west africa would be one that is legally relevant for reparations of the term. reparations is not mentioned in the joint declaration. so we are given back to square one when it comes to the top of standards. and just imagine that reasoning is that

when you and genocide convention was adopted after the general sidewalks committed in south west africa. it refers to this principle of in depth temple rather to read . they say you can't qualified as of lot stuff and for general size, because that's know she was still there. not trust cost for the moment. as you mentioned, what would happen if it's the same argument one would make reference as to the honda of course, as a general side which was not in legal terms, a journalist site because it happened before the adoption of the genocide convention. this is that perspective from the point of view of narby jets and the germans simply don't get it. a safe cut to you with the joint declaration

issued by the german and the baby and government says, germany asks forgiveness for the sins of its full fathers and the baby and government, the people except germany's apology. why isn't that? along with the funds of germany's agreed to pay enough for the colorado a number of communities? we apologies at face the home, the concessions cannot take place between then that'd be a mistake then jim and state. we have had arrows in books, one in south africa, the united states, united kingdom, and elsewhere. they are not part of that new position. so then i can see that in the apology is not to the nation. the apology must come to the communities, whether some members who have suffered systematically under the timing they extermination or does that position. so a direct participation and coughing what the need to resolve and how we come to this thing and answer. because it's about 12 about getting well. therefore,

if it is only between 2 stage 3 and it does not say that it's not, it's not something that will show up because this case may be a germany underscore is the challenges of writing historically and justices in ways that are acceptable to an inclusive of the very people who, who are wrong uh, what are the implications of this for the people have gone so when it comes to the information of what needs to be taught before they the big dentist that to like to reduce all 5 of these uh they have to be directly involved, this is not going to, it should not be an issue box spring, the national community decide to uh for the palestinians. uh as to how they should be. uh, how that needs to be addressed. what time do you wanna do?

you wanna pick up on that? yes. um sure. so this is an interesting issue. uh, you know, at some point uh, this will, will over with the overall we would come to the point where we have to talk about reparations. and now in the case of guys, uh, i would include in that debate, issues of war crimes and crimes against humanity. i would not solely focus on dental side because on substance i'm not sure if we can actually talk about a general side that is already happening there. manufacturer. the issue is many of them have been brought up at the court. general side is a crime that is very hard to prove because the intention to eliminate a people's needs to come together with the fact. so someone needs to act in order to implement that intention. and that is quite difficult to prove. it is a very clear case in with respect and that may be because that has been an order by general low, tough on toyota ordering the elimination. and then he just states that we don't

have that clear a case in the gaza, but still there is the issue of war crimes, for example, using excessive violence using and starvation, or at least attempting to stop the people using it in sufficient care to distinguish between civilians and combatants and so on and so on and all of that good get price to reparation. so i would on the view here yet, but tests what, what about the, what about the, you know, you have right wing is where the government been assessed talking about, you know, performing you guys are entered into a situation. sure. surely that's the look at. yeah, absolutely. well, what that shows is an intention to commit genocide or maybe even insight that to attend that side. but as i just said, you know, the people acting on the ground and guy said they need to have to have the same intentions. so what you need to do is you need to prove that there is basically

a line of command between whichever person make such a comment as calling for the opposite ration of gaza. and the person pulling the trigger or dropping the bump. and that is very hot to prove it particular and if much of that information depends on a military that, you know, you don't control. so if it's a let, let me put it in that way. and many of these issues have come up and i'm not alone in, you know, if it's sitting a little bit on the fence, if that will actually be proven, but i think i see much better ground tier for proving crime so for and maybe even the crimes against humanity and that will itself already give price to reparation claims headings. you want to come in on that and i think there is indeed a difference which following the common smell makes the point as much as has stressed. the claim to commit genocide is very difficult and hard to prove. and in

the past, also in the i c, c, the record was very reluctant did at this i meant to also of legal disputes. i've shown much, yes. and it was much better than i do. rest call us actually fee of the definition of the general side is rather on suitable to be tested in the courts. what is much more suitable as war crimes and crimes against humanity. and it's much easier to follow that line or all right. then we have a number of touch rooms where this was with that it well locked rods and crimes against humanity. so that if that is indeed the distinction, which also means at the i c j, the case as i am the reverie. unfortunately, the thing of the reason why we are discussing this now is that germany did a very so ill

a twice move. on the 12th of january on that a 120 g, it's off the wall between the maintenance and the german started kind of meeting in general side pull from the general side issue with a statement in absolute defense of this drive. and the same day did need to use a single address the historical legacy at a time when to buy that for the bank or jason's s, we are told about to be computed in a joint declaration. whereas the chief pointed out, germany apologize to the intermediates and the number you can government test. if i've ever planned on tested to to accept an apology. in that declaration was often american. people have been, be not that over every row. and then i might have to dump around both asked if they are back or just in the border to that is the context or chase,

a culture of the agreement between germany and the maybe it was supposed to be a but a win win for old germany would determine for its its bloody crimes and may be able to get much needed funding. why did protests breakout when the agreement was, was, was made. the agreement deviated from what to the public expect it for them? i a bunch of the package to develop them and the progress and um the, the money that was provided was very unique. um, as a result uh, most people did not like it. uh, you know, a specific case. the disagreement is between the and the german state, exclude people in but so i myself, i think i now switch the info to the numbers. it seems to where execute it from the beginning. this is something that we're never going to trust them at all. and one

must take no tv in one of the cost saves that are getting into sign. this is uh were closed in the future discussions on the issue of a demo site under fire insurance. so that's the choices, the bill and jim, and he went on to say look, they, they, what they have done is a guest john goodwill. so it was another punishment, but it's about a guest job between $2.00 to $90.00 and government. so really it shows that i don't guns in that position, open closing to that idea stage what the, why don't we start really taking talk around the particular situation or the needs of the people? what size getting back to to jump. it isn't dimension that the, the i c j a what the legal grounds does it have for that? so, or any state party to the i, c, j. it's possible to intervene in an ongoing dispute because disputes only

take place between parties. but as the i c k is the most, the authoritative international court did really affect all the states because they might create a president. and so germany is concerned about the interpretation of the genocide convention or 8 was concerned about that in the previous cases in which it intervene. so you could say you're on the face of it. it's not necessarily legitimate to intervene in such a case. and as i said, it's quite a bit from, from the perspective of the dentist convention, it's quite a complicated case. while, while it clearly seat incitement to attend the site and why it clearly see a risk or a threat of genocide, whether there is an extra commission. often, a site is quite an entry and if it could at mann and i would be very careful in jumping to a conclusion there. so there's good reasons to, you know, to make, to make and submissions for all states. actually, the,

the internet's record which has this, has also to function a little bit of a forum for the bathing international law. there is no legislature international law. there's only sporadic treaties and i think that's an important function that the court can folks. so i think it as such, it's ok to intervene in the case. but the questions read, how do you do it? how do you frame it and how do you do it in a way that is, i think disrespectful to south africa heading finally. right. but it is this, you have another example of the global south, exposing the double standards of, of the west, of the global north. i think it is edits another piece in the parcel of our globe or re alignment. begin with this since a few years. or there are a number of reference points, and i wonder if president guy and go with the estimate estimate a strongly worded statement. 2 years ago. they are realignments,

countries of the so called global falls select can you positives. they are extremely frustrated that the luxury of the hegemonic breast continues that the rest tell them what is right and what is wrong. meanwhile, they apply the standards all the time. i'm not saying that in go was countries who object jumped on know top a standard. unfortunately published and it seemed to be an integral part of basically every country, but they all fed up and have enough of the rest telling them what to do and what, what to do. they are report section 8, and there are new globe and actors with which they can align ok. manufacturing date, i'm so i'm sorry to interrupt you the ending, but we are out of time. thank you gentlemen, chief, which in the country you are heading. melba advertise goldman and thank you

for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the website. i'll just hear a dot com for further discussion. join us a facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash h a inside story. and you can join the conversation on x, i handle that. is that a great inside story from the adrian thinking on the team here. and so we'll see you again for the, the the staging type is being played in touch are from a rock or 3rd time. 24 teams are competing from the trophy. there can only be 4. can you, if you run across the action from out of the tournament, facing cap on lock? so during lockdown, held in an infamous us detention center. immigrants documents the horrendous

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was terrorist from all around the world. but if you speak to any of the shop findings, they'll tell you that business has oh, but to indulge large scale is really police surveillance and all the tree a rest of the most open steps up and occupied east jerusalem with movement being restricted. and it's for reggie having repercussions on the local economy the, the israel continues its relentless shelling across casa 19 palestinians have been killed. the other that i missed of you take, this is out of their life from dell also coming rockets aside from garza into

israel and causing damage to several buildings around the revolutionary, god says it's it wants to miss all attacks on what it describes as the terrorist talk in some syria.