the, the, it's a deal that's raise the fire of somalia. break away somebody lands of lead to gloss details here much so an access to the red sea. most of the issues has it's an act of aggression and violation of a suffering team. so how will this dispute play out? and there's a possibility. this is inside story, the hello and welcome to the program. i'm elizabeth put on of a deal between ethiopia and a break away region of somalia is raising tensions and the horn of africa. somebody

ever got some on demand as part of its territory and has wound ethiopia against interfering. and it's a says, but if you, if you as landlocked and wants access to the see something somali man can provide regional blocks a trying to mediate. but neither side is willing to back down. we go to a panel in the moment, but 1st mention mama had has this report. the fury in somalia over deal between ethiopia and somali land somalia regard smally when is a break wave part of its own territory and the government is accusing ethiopia of interference and aggression. no one has the power to give away a piece of somalia. our grandfather refused, all full fault is refused, and all mothers refused. we ourselves refused to give out land, and it is not possible. some of the people will never accept. the somali land declared independence from somalia in 1991. that hasn't been internationally

recognized in somalia continues to claim the territory. but somali land has something, ethiopia need access to the red sea. the agreement signed in early january without ethiopia to lease a portion of symbolic allowance coast, instead of a commercial port. a naval base going to me some way land is because this will be the starting point for our cooperation with the brotherly people of somali, alarmed to grow and developed together. and this in cooperation. i'm to ensure a common secure team has done as we've repeatedly stated. we do not wish to use force on anyone lava. we'll use what we have cooperatively has personality land. it's hoping the deal will lead to official recognition by ip yeah. one of the things that we are very happy and we think you'll be in prime minister as we signed the agreement here. we will allow them 20 kilometers of our c and they will also recognize us as an independent state. they will become the 1st

to recognize somali left cost us a lot of the skin regional neighbors have called for com, with some attempting to mediation to dispute. but somalia says there can be no talks until the deal is cancelled. no side issue in any willingness to back down intentions are growing. and if the agreement between ethiopia and symbolic that is put into practice, many fear they will get a lot worse. sense and bother him l g 0 for insights, story that spring in august. and just to go, if you, if you is come alhashan, well home with a member of the if you, if you in parliament in nairobi, mcbride and a strategic advisor at san research. that's a political think tank covering the horn of africa and didn't come. paula is of the i into a former some of the minister of planning and investment and economic development. he's also the co founder of the heritage institute for policy studies thing tag in

somalia. a very well and welcome to all of you mr. mohammed with. i'll start with you and jessica prime minister document says that landlord countries such as ethiopia face in some mountable challenges. but why go to somali land to address that when it showed for the dispute a lot? well, attack us so. so i think the, the pharmacist called was not the specific system online. totally. uh so what is that this good vis you need his uh uh, direct access to c, and for this uh, the problem is that all the, all the guns, usually the guy did call 12 neighboring countries. uh oh, shoddy, also. so diploma mazes and leslie and so while i was the 1st respond, does always happened to approach it. so my lad, as an adult, if it was in the specification of to so my life and this has been very positive move and which are the baby treat us and sort of the supported. and we'll look at

it by definitely can unit 3 and 4. since drink is in the visual division for boys uh, you know, economy can a social, uh, inter says which benefit us all of all parties and them speak of somebody a lot like that and got to this. we share those only borders supposed to be shows with the same community who can see that and this will be a good benefits for boys. uh, particularly being uh the trip that is so my life. so that's it. but there was in the as best they can tell us to something by like, but what i'm very comfortable, that's the one that does become the 1st kind of good the 1st to understand these. and also to, to respond positively. russell hop that the neighboring countries will also respond . so red, okay, that to be able to access to other places uh, to the punch enter this useful. and i would say it's only an opportunity to open the door, neighboring good countries. so the stress began the most in region off for me just

to get in, get it conflict or not. is it very possible? but of course, given that some of the land is not recognized as a country by any other nation in the world, this is why the move has received a lot of condemnation from many different organizations is mr. i enter. what do you make of what you'll hear and didn't ethiopia come to say, somalia, which has the longest coast in africa, the longest coastline as one of the countries and the regions that could provided with the the access to points that it so desperately needs. i think the effects are very important here, somalia, like all the other neighboring countries dispute, see over here has been willing to engage with us on a mutually beneficial all trading arrangement and use of the sports that has never been a problem. the 2nd fact that's critical here is that if you be actually made itself a landlocked country 30 years ago in 1993, when eric try again, independence. and the 3rd extremely important fact and context to this debates is

that if you could, economy, in fact, grew exponentially bigger when it became after it became a level of the country. and that's also true for other level countries in africa life books want to. so the notion that you're impacted economically by lack of access to the sea has absolutely no grounds. okay, let me bring in math and brighten in nairobi. as i mentioned, it has been a lot of condemnation. somalia said that this would amount to illegally occupying parts of the country. the arab league has quoted a violation of international nor is it as well. is it certainly a violation of international norms and standards relate. the unity and territorial integrity of states is something with the african union. united nations considered to be in principle, cypress. but that doesn't mean that they have not been

a new countries. and in fact, many new countries of america since the end of the, the cold war and 1989 and 90. so the recognition of new statements is also something fairly common. and although it's, it's a difficult process and certainly a controversial one. i'm somebody that and is it has been defacto, an autonomous polity since 1991. so 33 years, which is longer than it was united with somalia was made defendant state before. ready it is united with some of you and some of the land as well. and it has a stronger case for independence, legally and politically speaking than countries like eritrea and south sudan that has been recognized by the african union and united nations. so it's not completely beyond the pale that some of them could be seeking independence, the recognition, but it doesn't have the consent of the metric. paul,

of the parent country as it were somalia and issue. and so for that reason, i think we're seeing a very high level of controversy and elevated tempers, of rhetoric on all sides of this issue. yeah, that's a very interesting point. then let me put that to mr. ma move is ethiopia willing to the wedding, isn't very clear, but is a ppo p. a willing to recognize somali labs as a software nation in return for access to this port. uh well let's, let's show the fact to uh, resolve without taxes, the parts uh the, the mind to be independent by so while i'm to has been a long standing christian. it has been almost, uh no. well, that sweetie kid has somebody that has been eating satisfied, so, and the long before they've gone to the colony as well. so not so my landlords, independence will call any you know,

that it has been to look at as it by was on subject categories. then after it joined the unit again i just took it saw in terms of standing a little would see the start when the kid was into hold of somebody else. so no, it's in the process of calling for, for independence. and i see that there's a lot of strong ground dis, uh, 40 to a band for me now the categories to go into someone lands on it as a good at that point you don't think you're going to, is it okay that this does go through the process, okay, it sounds like you're saying that if you, if you would recognize somebody that as an independent nation, mr. i and to we've heard from various senior advisors to the somali government saying that they are prepared to go to war over this issue. can somebody of really afford a conflict with a country like ethiopia that spends 3 times as much on its military? but well, 1st of all, i think it's important to say here that in fact it's the if you get the,

the aggressor not somalia, somalia is simply trying to defend its sovereignty, unity and territorial integrity under which it has every right to defend. so by all means possible, and as the smart of leadership have said repeatedly, their 1st choice is certainly not a military choice. it is diplomatic towards a level try and, and i had a way, sorry to interrupt your miss diane, to because you are speaking about a different mass of choice. the somali government has also said that they do not want to mediation when others have also to mediate that what they need is for this memorandum of understanding between ethiopia and some of the line to be a null and void. well, that's correct. and that is because if someone comes to to your house and claims parts of it, you want negotiate a way out of that. you will kick them out of your house 1st and then you will talk about why they did this in the 1st place. so i think that's an important element here. and also another key element to add to this discussion is that what do you

feel is seeking is not only the commercial port. they made it very clear that they want a naval base in the territory. that is not only a, an annexation of part of somalia, but it is actually an occupation and intent to occupy another country unless remember that if you'll be did that 15 years ago with disastrous consequences. we have also about precisely because if you'll be that that 15 years ago and they're trying to repeat the same stake again, this time with probably later consequences. and i do want to talk about what all of these tensions could mean for, i'll show bob in somalia for the fires against alice. you bob? but mr. well, how moved? if i can come to you with a point that d i n t a was making wine, does, ethiopia needs a navy when it is a land lock country. one thanks so much as you know that you see the a, the one such as you know, last week. oh no, no, no problem. the cop uh is, is independent. give us the ability, uh, as we speak each of the uh you to best and military is easy and somebody out of for

a peacekeeping mission the same as to resolve them and they, but, and come to this. uh, do you want me to think of them the start of the piece uh into how did you uh so uh, this is a very uh bogged move info. is that the one which russell will so my life really buys it. so i don't see any way that is going to attempt to so mind that because right, even though so my left for the peace keeping keeping region. so i don't see any problem. we just as long as on for the reason that situation, you know what's going with it has been worked. he has and you know that they've been a funny concert is nothing. i think i go out of the republic. i'm going to get this . i think bins this evening, the neighboring country just as you know. so why is it a very especially suspicious when it comes to the top? yeah. well we show the same community that we showed us in bought the. okay. and these are very pleasant. what is it just what the subject of the digit? okay, mr. bride is going to start with the piece of machines. all right, mr. brighton, there's been condemnation from other red sea neighbors,

including egypt and eritrea. are they afraid of ethiopia having naval access to the red sea? well, i think it's true that i'm sure egypt and any therapy i have been strategic competitors. they have not adversaries for, for decades. and in just the last few weeks, you see uh, egypt has withdrawn from negotiations with the ve opens, begun over the management of the crime, the job and renaissance done, which is to control part of the, the headwaters of the nile river, which egypt considers as a central to its wellbeing as prime minister of the i'm going to be field guessing to consider access to the scene. so we see an escalation tension between egypt and the field over the night of the waters and egypt therefore, apparently aligning itself with somebody in a different dispute. this went over some of the land of the same time eritrea,

although it cooperated with the open government in its war on the degree region of northern ethiopia relations between the 2 states ethiopian era tray. i have now deteriorated to the point that some of the servers even fear, the conflict between the 2 countries could be in, in the near future could be possibility. and so perhaps our tray is also concerned and is now offering butare support to somalia. so there's certainly a polarization, the regional level between these, these blocks of countries. but at the same time, i think it's surprising that this issue is already reached the level of militarization. and to characterize ethiopia as an aggressor in somalia is a very sudden and unexpected development. easy. ok, it has thousands of troops in southern somalia, protecting the federal government and its member states against dial shut up and

somebody has not a mr. brighton nearly. yeah, so do you not see that somalia is justified then in cooling if you, if you an aggressive well on the one hand somebody is not asking you to open troops to leave southern somalia. on the other hand, it's calling an aggressive for an next thing and part of the territory in the money land, which in fact is a lease or a concession. now the historically, ethiopia obtained a concession in some other land and but a several years ago. 20 percent stake and the management of but a form to which somalia raised no objection. so it's not clear why um, several years ago, almost a decade. ethiopia, or somalia rather consented to ethiopia as a colon management to that better port. but now is raising an objection to a lease arrangement on the symbolic coast. let's face it, military, leases and foreign countries and nothing new in the international system either.

okay, mr. i enter, would you like to respond to this? yeah, precisely a 1st of all, as i said earlier, um the reason why the some of the government has never objected to the bedframe for the deal was simply because there was no problem um would between small yeah. need to be uh, when it comes to commercial um engagements and trade between the 2 countries and small you consider the better buy for deal as part of that. but now comes to other strings that are too dangerous for small. the one is an ex, ation on of a territory and another is enable base. and the 3rd one is the recognition of parts of somalia. that is what is unacceptable now? i think so, and invitations to the field in which is in somalia, i think it's important to say that yes, they are part of a broader peacekeeping mission. but if, if you will be, it takes the next, the steps and moves ahead with this m o. u. i think the somali government has all

the tools at its disposal, including asking the if you open forces to lead somalia, when it's appropriate. all right, mr. muhammad, as we've been talking about, if you, if you and troops are in somalia as possibly international task force has been fighting out you, bob, the us special envoy for the horn of africa said that this agreement is being weaponized by the um, groups that they have seen troubling indications that all sure bob is using it to to generate new recruits. are you worried that what your p a has been fighting for in somalia and fighting against all she bought these huge international efforts could be undermined. uh, no. well, uh, i think is the other way of just using to do the continuation off of uh, the normal uh, uh, internet vision, uh, each of that has the name of the company is malia. so having the neighbor,

the bed is going to tank is in uh uh at the fire that again this i'll show up. we also have a stronger. so my lab who can also join in fighting, i'll show up and also it was. so i don't see, i don't see, uh uh, that's much fuel coming from, i mean, it goes the, something's the same thing. goes happening. uh, you know, before i just happened, i've shut the what other products was sitting up on the division in but off and also remind you that for almost see the kid is me. the either from a different that will give them does come through and how to do so. so i don't, i don't see why owners know which becomes an issue that when and nobody in the country like you tube that comes and supports us for mutual benefits. it becomes an issue. i don't even think i show up as a big issue because i last sunday, but i'm using this for products. got those. but there's nothing new into that

meeting. but let me put that to you since you are in somalia, do you share, you know, the us concerns that this deal by emboldening groups in somalia could really undermine regional security. yes, of course. i mean, in fact, as i said earlier, i also the, the most menacing terrace group in the heart of, i figured today is there precisely because of an early or if you have any invasion, i think this will help a, you know, also by recruiting a lot more people and it will tap into a reservoir of, of nationalistic fervor in somalia. but beyond that also, it's almost certainly going to lead to a broader regional and instability with other countries getting involved. because this will be seen as a threat to peace and security in the region. and you know, for you to get to do that when it's hosting the, asking the union, which its own doctor says that no members state should be infringing on other member states. a sovereignty really is on, you know, unfathomable,

and in so many ways for us, mr. bright. and you spoke earlier of the many different interests at play here. the port would be managed by and rossi company, and we've seen the united arab emirates trying to increase its influence in the region. it supports various groups in yemen. on the other side of the gulf is aiden . do you see this? do you see that, you know, i should have and what's playing any pods here in trying to increase its influence and the gulf of 8 and to access that t shipping routes from the red sea and suez canal. i don't sickly yet. see the influence of the united or whatever it's in, in this deal between smile underneath the, the, the, you, a, administers, manage as much of that part of better better, and somebody land as part of a previous arrangement. but what do you see? oh, be a seems to be angling for as, as of a speech as upset as is more of

a military base to the west, but about a independently of this m or i t concession. so i think we're looking at a, a piece of territory that we would be administered or controlled by u. v. o. be under the terms of the lease. that characterizing that is annexation, i think, is just overblown. this would be a concession, a lease agreement. and according to the terms of the m, o u, which nobody's seen, would told, we should expect it to be a 50 year concession. now the, the issue here is it easy? okay? it probably doesn't have the means at the moment to me to build a naval base or a port, or the infrastructure and connecting such a facility to these european homeland. so for their, i think we should expect that as of a be looking for financing abroad. what does that come across from the emeralds or china or some other close parts of the field? yeah, i don't think we can speculate at this stage. okay. mr. how long we know the total

that the took rival has taken on if you appear economically, politically to that is looking for financing is it also looking? is ethiopia also looking to divert attention away from the problems that was as a result of the took, right? well, from the conflict that's now happening in the i'm high region, well the, the, the, the situation needed to base is now getting better. now when, when a better start, when you're done well before, there's no reason to be there without the issue. this is the community for the tip at 12, a direct access. i like the other 5 said i don't see where the calculation come. that like the country is more people up and really doesn't have access to data sheet. we know how much we're paying every you owe, you know, uh some. ready products that you, i think a lot of money now. so do, there is no way that these advances toward any other conflict as being of the type

of situation where the p situation is no better than the start date. and we go. so $12.00 piece one assume or, or letter says, well, i bought it kind of big tank is going to begin production. and also for the benefit of was never been in congress. i'm sure you're going to go with those. so mine. yeah, there's, you know, forget that these take, you know, what i'm speaking for me is the cost of somebody to do what of the you guys for just interpret with revenues to somebody community, which is part of each up and also for us are going to benefit was under somebody's and some of them going to benefit. so that's just you piece of the very positive and baltimore which is going for much more benefits. this the other part of the capital associated with this. yeah, miss di, enter mutual benefit. most of the homeless says perhaps with the people of somalia that but is there any way for somalia to see it that way what, what is it going to take for somebody a to um you know, to de escalate what's happening between the countries? well,

somebody has drawn the line already added said that the m o u has to be retracted before any discussion could open. and i think somebody has testified to do that simply because, you know, no country can simply violate another country, sovereignty and territory. they didn't take 30 and expect that victim to b, e stuff file and, and somehow completion in that, in that anastasia process here i, i think it's important to highlight that iraqis, your base spacing, deep internal crises. it's not true to say that he will be more stable today than it was 15 years ago. it's a lot more divided there. or i mean region in, on how to region any other regional. and he's looking at just default at any point zone just last month, so i don't know where he can get the money to do all of it. all right, mr. i and a, we only have about a minute left in the program. so i'd like to bring mr. bride and, and now what you think it would take to solve this resolve, this dispute now, and i think the core issue is actually not between somebody indeed the opiates

between somebody and somebody and on small alonda has been functioning as a, as an independent state for the better part of the more than 30 years, somalia has been a failed and fragile state. it doesn't actually a sort of control over most of its territory is bored as there's space or it sees. so this is a, it's a hypothetical argument. it's a sovereignty and a legal argument. then the issue is it can somali to appeal to somebody, the make the people there wants to be parts of smaller. or they just going to use the instruments of journey decal, sovereignty to try to claim this territory which you know, it right now is, is disputed. and many of the people in that charge we don't want to be part of some of it. so this really is about a smallest amount in that dispute and not really bad, a c o p, which is simply recognizing the state of affairs that has existed for more than 3 decades. that is very interesting. i can see of the i entered doesn't agree, but we have run out of time. so perhaps we can continue to this discussion another

day. thank you to all of i guess that is come on. hi, sheet ma moment. and jessica, ethiopia match brighton and nairobi and d i n, t a and kampala, and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website onto 0 dot com. and for further discussion, do go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you can also join the conversation on x. a handle is at a inside story from the elizabeth put on him and the whole team here, bye for now. the the latest news as it breaks the word along over a 100 save, has left many feeling life. you will never end with in depth reports many saying that is no victory until all the caps. if a go to the price,

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move on level to being recruited from around the world. the system in russia is beginning discharge some planes of fatigue. no one knows what the limits of what you are going to to the this is the 1st to decide that we see the real time. it's the victims themselves. there's a disconnect between what we are witnessing on social media versus what we're seeing on mainstream. it is always an attempt to frame as to side of them, but there is no 2 sides to the western media. does have a western bias. understand what they are looking to see out and raise. the listening post covers how the news is covered to fall and causing the cost more than $100.00 days into the wall on the task that the humanitarian protests retreat is deepening. as the conflict continues, the cost to the is really economy is good, know of us plus can tie $1.00 is view president to bring peace and prosperity to

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