one also that is afflicted by conflicts political upheaval, some of those we talked to elsewhere saying that they sled update hearing that other villages had been a talk. what we do in all just there is try to balance the stories, the good, the bad, the id tell. it says it was, and he's the people allow us into their lives, dignity ends. you mind if he asked me to tell this story to it's a deal that's raise the fire of somalia right away. some of the lands of lead to gloss details here much. so an access to the red sea. most of the issues has it's an act of aggression and violation of its suffering team. so how will this dispute play out? and as of possibilities, this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm elizabeth put on of the day in between. if you, if you and a break away region of somalia is raising tensions and the horn of africa, somebody ever got some on demand as part of its territory and has wound ethiopia against interfering. and it's a says, but if you, if you as land locked and wants access to the see something somebody man can provide regional blocks a trying to mediate, but neither side is willing to back down. we go to a panel in the moment, but 1st mention mama has this report. the fury in somalia over deal between ethiopia and somali land somalia regard small un is a break away part of its own territory. and the government is accusing ethiopia of interference and aggression. no one has the power to give away a piece of somalia. our grandfather refused. all full fault is refused, and all mothers refused. we ourselves refused to give all the land,

and it is not possible. some, all the people will never except somali land declared independence from somalia in 1990. 1 that hasn't been internationally recognized in somalia continues to claim the territory. but small island has something, ethiopia needs access to the red sea of the agreement, signed in early january without ethiopia to lease a portion of symbolic allowance coast. instead of a commercial port, a naval base go in the missing way, then this because this will be the starting point for our cooperation with the brotherly people of somali, alarmed to grow and developed together. in this, in cooperation. i'm to ensure a common and secure team has done as we've repeatedly stated. we do not wish to use force on anyone lava. we'll use what we have cooperatively has personality land. it's hoping the deal will lead to official recognition by ip yeah. one of the things that we are very happy and we think you'll be in prime

minister as we signed the agreement here. we will allow them 20 kilometers of our c and they will also recognize us as an independent state. they will become the 1st to recognize somali left of us it out of the skin. regional neighbors have called for com, with some attempting to mediation to dispute. but somalia says there can be no talks until the deal is canceled. no site is shown any willingness to back down intentions are growing. and if the agreement between ethiopia and symbolic that is put into practice, many fear they will get a lot worse. vince and bother him l 20 for insights. story that spring in august. and just to go, if you, if you is come alhashan mohammed with a member of the if you, if you in parliament and i, roby mcbride and a strategic advisor at san research. that's a political think tank, covered the horn of africa and didn't come. paula is of the i into a full list,

some of the minister of planning and investment and economic development. he's also the co founder of the heritage institute for policy studies thing tag in somalia. a very well and welcome to all of you mr. mohammed with. i'll start with you and jessica prime minister document says that landlord countries such as ethiopia face in some mountable challenges. but why go to somali line to address that when it showed for the dispute a lot? well, attack us so. so i think the, the pharmacist called was not the specific system. i learned only to be as data this good vision need this uh, direct access to c, and for this uh, the problem is that all the, all the guarantees really got to call 12 neighboring countries. uh oh, i appreciate the also so diploma mazes and leslie and so while i was the 1st respond does always happened to up what you saw,

my lad as an adult if it was in the specification of to some of that. and this has been very positive who acts which are bad to treat us and sort of the support to the info to the bi. definitely can unit to enforce and strength isn't uh, did you have the division for boys? uh, you know, you called them they can. uh, uh, so charlotte instead of says which benefit is all of all parties that have speak of somebody a lot like that. but in categories we share those only borders supposed to be shows with the same community. who can see that this would be a good benefit for boys, a particularly being in the trip. i didn't so my life. so that's it. but there was in the, as best vacant as to something by like, fun too. i'm very comfortable. that's the one that does become the 1st of the 1st to understand these and also to, to respond positively. russell hop that other neighboring countries will also respond. so read okay, that we have also access to other places to the part to enter this useful. and i

would say it's only an opportunity to open the door, neighboring good countries. so let's press the can the most in region all for me just to get in, get it conflict or not. is it very possible? but of course, given that some of the land is not recognized as a country by any other nation in the world, this is why the move has received a lot of condemnation from many different organizations is mr. i enter. what do you make of what you'll hear and did ethiopia come to say, somalia, which has the longest coast in africa, the longest coastline as a, one of the countries in the regions that could provided with the, the access to points that it so desperately needs. i think the effects are very important here, somalia, like all the other neighboring countries, this pc of yeah, has been willing to engage with us on a mutually beneficial all trading arrangement of course and use of the sports that has never been

a problem. the 2nd fact that's critical here is that if you be actually made itself a landlocked country 30 years ago in 1993, when eritrea gained independence. and the 3rd extremely important fact and context to this debates is that if you just economy, in fact, grew exponentially bigger when it became after it became a lot of the country. and that's also true for other language countries in africa life books want to. so the notion that you're impacted economically by lack of access to the sea has absolutely no grounds. okay, let me bring in math and brighten in nairobi. as i mentioned, it has been a lot of condemnation. somalia said that this would amount to illegally occupying parts of the country. the arab league has quoted a violation of international nor is it as well. is it certainly a violation of international norms and standards relate the unity and territorial

integrity of states in something with the african union? united nations considered to be in principle, sac percent. but that doesn't mean that they have not been a new countries and find many new countries of america since the end of the, the cold war and 1989 and 90. so the recognition of new state is also something fairly common. and although it's, it's a difficult process and certainly a controversial one. i'm some money land is it has been defacto and autonomous polity since 1991. so 33 years, which is longer than it was united with somalia was made defendant state before. ready it is united with some of you and some of the land as well, has a stronger case for independence, legally and politically speaking than countries like eritrea and south sudan that has been recognized by the african union and united nations. so it's not completely

beyond the pale that some of them could be seeking independence. the recognition, but it doesn't have the consent of symmetric paul of the parents, the country as it were somalia and the issue. and so for that reason, i think we're seeing a very high level of controversy and elevated the tempers of rhetoric on all sides of this issue. yeah, that's a very interesting point. then let me put that to mr. ma move is ethiopia willing to the wedding, isn't very clear, but is a ppo p. a willing to recognize somali labs as a sub for a nation in return for access to this port. uh, well, uh, mr. blanch of the fact for the loser actions of the parts, the demand to be independent by so while i'm to has been a long standing christian. it has been almost uh no, well that's sweet. the kid is somebody that does be needing some pipe. so,

and the long before they've gone to the colony as well. so not so my landlord's independence for a call i need, you know, that it has been organized by, without such a calculus, enough to be drained the unit. and again, i just took it saw in terms of standing a little would see the start with the kid who's into a hold of somebody else. so no, it's in the process of calling for, for independence. and i see that there's a lot of strong ground us uh for the trip. and for me to have the categories to go into, so my legs on it as a good at that point, you do a being google knows it. okay, this does go through the process. okay. it sounds like you're saying that if you, if you would recognize some of the land as an independent nation, mr. i and to we've heard from various senior advisors to the somali government saying that they are prepared to go to war over this issue. can somebody of really afford a conflict with

a country like ethiopia that spends 3 times as much on its military? but well, 1st of all, i think it's important to say here that in fact it's the if you get the, the aggressor not somalia, somalia is simply trying to defend its sovereignty, unity and territorial integrity under which it has every right to defend. so by all means possible, and as the smart of leadership have said repeatedly, their 1st choice is certainly not a military choice. it is diplomatic choice to live or die. and i had to wait, sorry to interrupt your miss diane, to because you are speaking about a different magic choice. the somali government has also said that they do not want to mediation when others have also to mediate that what they need is for this memorandum of understanding between ethiopia and somalia, 9 to be a null and void. well, that's correct. and that is because if someone comes to your house and claims parts of it, you want to negotiate a way out of that. you will kick them out of your house 1st and then you will talk

about why they did this in the 1st place. so i think that's an important element here. and also another key element to add to this discussion is that what do you feel seeking is not only the commercial port. they made it very clear that they want a naval base in the territory. that is not only a, an annexation of part of somalia, but it is actually an occupation and intent to occupy another country unless remember that if you did that 15 years ago with disastrous consequences, we have also about precisely because you feel you did that 15 years ago and they're trying to repeat the same mistake again, this time with probably weight or consequences. and i do want to talk about what one of these tensions could mean for all should bob and somebody for the fires against alice. you bob bought mr. ma mode if i can come to you with a point that d i n t a was making wine, does ethiopia needs a navy when it is a land lock country? well, thank so much as you know that you see the a, the one such as, you know,

last week. oh no, no, no problem. the cop uh is, is independent. give us w t, as we speak each about the campus and military is, isn't somebody out of for a peacekeeping mission the same as to resolve them and they, but, and come to this. uh, do you want me to think of them the start of the piece into how did you uh so uh, this is a very uh bogged move in, pulls up the one which russell will so my life really buys it. so i don't see any way that it's going to attempt to so mind that because right, even though so my left for the peace keeping keeping region. so i don't see any problem. we just as long as on for the video situation, you know, what's going on with the vision has been worked. he has and you know that they've been a funny concert is nothing i think are out of the topic are going to get this. i think bins this evening, the neighboring country just as you know. so why is it very especially suspicious when it comes from the top? yeah. well we show the same community that we showed us in both the ok and these

are very positive. what is just what the subject of the digit? okay, mr brian is going to start with the permissions. all right, mr. brighton, there's been condemnation from other red sea neighbors, including egypt and eritrea. are they afraid of ethiopia, having naval access to the red sea? well, i think it's true that i'm sure egypt and if you're, if you have been strategic competitors, if not adversaries for, for decades, and a in just the last few weeks you see, uh, egypt has withdrawn from negotiations with the po can be done over the management of the crime, detailed and renaissance done, which is to control part of the, the headwaters of the nile river, which egypt considers as a central to its wellbeing as prime minister ab yeah, i'm going to be feel guessing just to consider access to the scene. so we see an escalation tension between egypt and the field here,

over the night of the waters and egypt, therefore, apparently aligning itself, which is kemati in a different dispute. this one over some of the land of the same time eritrea, although it cooperated with b. c. open government in its war on the degree region in northern ethiopia relations between the 2 states ethiopian era tray. i have now deteriorated to the point that some of the servers even fear, the conflict between the 2 countries could be in, in the near future could be possibility. and so perhaps our tre is also concerned and is now offering butare support to somalia. so there's certainly a polarization, the regional level between these, these blocks of countries. but at the same time, i think it's surprising that this issue is already reached the level of militarization. and to characterize ethiopia as an aggressor and some of their is

a very sudden and unexpected development. ethiopia has thousands of troops in southern somalia, protecting the federal government, and its members stays against. i'll shut up and somebody has not even listed right in their lead. yeah, so do not say that somalia is justified then in cooling if you, if you an aggressive well on the one hand, somali is not asking you to contribute to leave southern somalia. on the other hand, it's calling it an aggressive for an next thing. and part of the territory in the money land, which in fact is a lease or a concession. now the historically, ethiopia obtained a concession in some other land and but a several years ago. 20 percent stake in the management of that report to which somalia raised no objection. so it's not clear why um, several years ago, almost a decade. ethiopia, or somalia, rather consented to ethiopia as a colon management to that, that a port, but now is raising an objection to

a lease arrangement on the symbolic coast. let's face it, military, leases and foreign countries and nothing new in the international system either. okay, mr. i enter, would you like to respond to this? yeah, precisely the 1st of all, as i said earlier, um the reason why the some of the government has never objected to the bedframe for a deal was simply because there was no problem um would between small yeah. need to be at when it comes to commercial um engagements and trade between the 2 countries and small you consider the better buy for deal as part of that. but now comes to other streams that are too dangerous for small. the one is annex asian on of a territory and another is a naval base. and a 3rd one is a recognition of parts of somalia. that is what is unacceptable now? i think so, and invitations to the field in what's least in somalia, i think it's important to say that yes, they are part of

a broader peacekeeping mission. but if you will be, it takes the next the steps and moves ahead with these m o u. i think the somali government has all the tools at its disposal, including asking the if you look in forces to lead somalia, when it's appropriate. all right, mr. muhammad, as we've been talking about, if you, if you and troops are in somalia as possibly international task force has been fighting algae. bob, the us special envoy for the horn of africa said that this agreement is being weaponized by the um, groups that they have seen troubling indications that all sure bob is using it to to generate new recruits. are you worried that what your p a has been fighting for in somalia and fighting against all she bought that these huge international efforts could be on the mind. you know, well i, i think is the other way of these just using to do the continuation off of uh,

the normal uh, uh, into vision uh each of the has the name of the company is malia. so having the neighborhood, the best is going to think of then uh, uh, as far as like getting this i'll show up. we also have a stronger so my life who can also joining and fighting, i'll show up. and also with the so i don't see, i don't see uh, uh, that's much feet coming from. i mean, it goes the, something's the same thing that's happening. uh, you know, before i just happened, i've shipped uh, what other products was tending about the division and but off and also my do that for almost see the kid is me. the either from the, from the give them does come through and how to do so. so i don't, i don't see why owners know which becomes an issue that when and nobody in the country like you tube that comes and supports us for mutual benefits. it becomes an

issue. i don't even think i show up as a big issue because unless some people are using this for products, got those. but there's nothing new in the meeting. but let me put that to you since you are in somalia, do you share? you know, the us concerns that this deal by emboldening groups in somalia could really undermine regional security. yes, of course. i mean, in fact, as i said earlier, i also the, the most menacing terrace group in the heart of africa today is there precisely because of an earlier, if you look in the invasion, i think this will help a, you know, also by recruiting a lot more people and it will tap into a reservoir of, of nationalistic fervor in small yes, but beyond that also it's almost certainly going to lead to a broader regional interest ability with other countries getting involved. because this will be seen as a threat to peace and security in the region. and you know, for you don't get to do that when it's hosting the, asking the union,

which its own doctor says that no member state should be infringing on other member states. a sovereignty really based on, you know, unfathomable and in so many ways or i, it's mister bride and you spoke earlier of the many different interests at play here. the port would be managed by and ross he company and we've seen the united arab emirates trying to increase its influence in the region. it supports various groups in yemen. on the other side of the gulf is aiden. do you see this? do you see that, you know, i should of emeralds playing any pots here in trying to increase its influence and the gulf of 8, and to access that t shipping version of the red sea and suez canal? i don't think we yet see the influence of the united, our reverence in, in this deal between small underneath the, via the u. a administers,

manages much of a port to better better and some of the land as part of a previous arrangement. but what e c o b a seems to be angling for as, as of his speech has upset is, is more of a military base to the west of, but about a, independently of this m r i t concession. so i think we're looking at a, a piece of territory that would be administered or controlled by you feel you're under the terms of the lease that characterizing that as an ex ation, i think, is just overblown. this would be a concession, a lease agreement. and according to the terms of the m, o u, which nobody's seen, would told, we should expect it to be a 50 year concession. now the, the issue here is it easy, okay? or probably doesn't have the means of the moment to mean to build a naval base or a port, or the infrastructure and connecting such a facility to these european homebound. so for there, i think we should expect that as of what would be looking for financing abroad,

what does that come across from the emeralds or china or some other close parts of the field? yeah, i don't think we can speculate at this stage. okay, mr. how long we know the total that the took rival has taken on if you appear economically, politically to that is looking for financing is it also looking, is ethiopia also looking to divert attention away from the problems it was as a result of the, to drywall from the conflict that's now happening in the i'm high region. well the, the, the, the situation needed to base is now getting better. now when, when a better start, when you're done well before, there's no reason to be there without the issue. this is a clear need 42 bath 12 and direct access. i like the other 5 said i don't see where the calculation come. that like the company is more developing to it does not have access to data sheet. we know how much we're paying every year. oh,

you know, a lot of products that you, i think a lot of money now. so there is no way that these advances toward any other conflict as being of the type of situation where the p situation is now is better than yesterday. and we go. so $12.00 piece one assume or, or laptop says, well i bought it kind of big tank is going to be contradiction. and also for the benefit of was there, but in congress, i'm sure you're going to go with those. so mine. yeah, there's, you know, forget that these think, you know, what i'm speaking from his backup does give somebody to one of the biggest reaches to interpret with revenues to somebody community, which is part of each up. and also for us are going to benefit was up to somebody's and so my them getting to benefit. so now to see piece of the very positive and baltimore which is going for much more benefit. this the, for example, associated with this. yeah, mr. i enter mutual benefit, most of the home with says perhaps with the people of somalia that but is there any way for somalia to see it that way what, what is it going to take for somebody

a to um you know, to de escalate what's happening between the countries, well somebody has drawn the line already added, said that the m o u a has to be retracted before any discussion could, could open. and i think somebody has testified to do that simply because, you know, no country can simply violate another country, sovereignty and territorially and take 30 and expect that victim to be e stuff pilot and, and somehow completion in that. in that annotation process here i, i think it's important to highlight that in fact, if you are based raising the internal crises, it's not true to say that needs to be more stable today than it was 15 years ago. it's a lot more divided there. or, i mean i region in, i'm how to region any other regional and these will get just default at any point zone just last month. so i don't know where he can get the money to do all of it. all right, mr. i and a, we only have about a minute left in the program,

so i'd like to bring mr. bride in and now what do you think it would take to solve this result? this dispute now, and i think the core issue is actually not between some out any d opiates between somebody and somebody and on small alonda has been functioning as a, as an independent stage for the better part of more than, than 30 years. somalia has been a failed and fragile stage. it doesn't actually a sort of control over most of its territory is bored as there's space or it sees. so this is a, it's a hypothetical argument. it's a sovereignty in a legal argument. then the issue is, it can somali to appeal to somebody, learn to make the people there, wants to be parts of smaller, or they just going to use the instruments of journey decal sovereignty to try to claim this territory. which, you know, it right now is, is disputed and many of the people in that charge we don't want to be part of some of it. so this really is about a smallest amount in that dispute and not really bad, a c o p,

which is simply recognizing the state of affairs that has existed for more than 3 decades. that is very interesting. i can see of the i entered doesn't agree, but we have run out of time. so perhaps we can continue to this discussion another day. thank you to all of i guess that is come on how sheet ma moment and jessica, ethiopia match brighton and nairobi and d i n, t a and kampala and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website onto 0 dot com. and for further discussion, do go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you can also join the conversation on x a handle as, as a j inside story for me, elizabeth put on him and the whole team here, bye for now. the, the most direct way for her to get into the brain is by and hailing

back in my day to get tucked up all the time. so bringing the nozzle up to your mouth. yeah. and i would blow through how many times do you think you'd be interested in? oh, my 100. and so why you were spring? did it ever occurred to that? what your spring might hurt you? hers? i have plans for people. so who do you hold responsible for? what's happened to you as the war with the rush of wages on an internal thought is escalating the new claim? there will be more p t, a state there will be flashbacks. many civilians will find it's difficult to understand. a one of the biggest mental health crises in living memory mindset meets the therapist helping ukraine. soldiers, families, what is your desired outcome for the patients that come through the store to make

a person want to live? this is the 1st and they saw that we see in the real time it's the victims themselves. there's a disconnect between what we are witnessing on social media versus what we're seeing on mainstream. it is always an attempt to frame a 2 sides of them, but there is no 2 sides to this. the western media does have a western bias who understand what they are looking to see out and raise. the listening post covers how the news is covered. the us is always of inside 50 full, right, the world. people pay attention to this one here. and i'll just see this very good that bringing the news to the world from here. the latest news, as it breaks, replaced in control of the presence will likely help. well, this immediate emergency with detailed coverage, the are between the army and the rest has race of the largest displacement among

children in the world that to make children who then move on level to being recruited from around the world. the system in russia is beginning to sure sums planes of fatigue, no one knows what the limits of its durable it to the formula tree advisors, somebody runs revolutionary guard, have been killed, and a suspected is really striking, damascus. the answer of any age group they have you with this, this is elsa 0, live from the also coming up casualty store and gaza is really strikes of less the entire neighborhoods and ruins at least a 160.