a scrubbing, sorry. are you doing scrolling? radio save me that you like to select adult? exploring how x is central threats to life impact the human psyche apocalypse, made coming soon. on outsourcing. your opinion, foreign ministers need to discuss the read seems crisis. the were on garza and ukraine, says unity on some issues, but shop division on others. is it possible for the block of 27 states to have a shadow meaningful foreign policy? this is inside story, the color there and welcome to the program. i'm installing the pain. is roswell and garza has a laid bash shop divisions within the european union. in contrast to the new unity

and swift, extensive action taken against russia after its invasion of ukraine. going back in 1957 as a trade in cloud. the 6 nations, the old e. c, has grown into the 27 men, but european union that we know today. trade is now just one parts of the use business with foreign policy and ministry action co areas for corporation too. but some might say that often the cause to of disagreement with divergent views and competing national interests. so you can consensus can mean delays and a watered down final position. critics say this week and the describe the influence compared to say the us or china. so tell me you have a cohesive foreign policy, does it's present structure, need to change to enable that? or could such a change as a even be agreed? we'll be discussing all this and move without guess in just a few moments, but fast call them upset. they were reports on unity and division in the european union for administered in brussels with gaza and ukraine on the agenda. they also

hoping to reach consensus on how to protect ships from who if you're taking the red sea and to what extent naval forces from e. you mean this might become involved? it's been weeks since the group that governs most of human start to targeting vessels passing through the up and up straight. one of the world's most important shipping routes, the who's the say they are tex i, in response to israel's 3 months long, been a tree offensive and gaza via text disrupting world trade. forcing shipping companies to reroute vessels to take much longer voyages around the southern tip of africa. and the many of the many armed forces emphasizes that the response to the american and british of things is inevitably coming in and any of us payments will not remain without a response and punishment. we've got the many armed forces assures me that the navigation in both radians and rates. these will continue to destinations around

the world except the pulse of occupied palestine on the u. s. has set up a multinational force but was limited involvement. this disagreement within the gemini, it should be in front wanting to send warships to the red sea. but other you members few becoming involved in what could become a wider regional to the deep, easy divisions of israel's will and gaza. the president of the e u commission was criticized for her visits to tel aviv at the start of the war when she changed to speak for the whole union in support of israel. germany and other states have supported israel. but other members, such as spain in belgium, has been highly critical and long demanded a ceasefire. to confuse the so he's not on his own. this will can not be solved with weapons since october 7th, nearly 25000 people have lost the lights on gaza isn't an extremely odd situation.

there's a risk of farming and disease the fighting needs to stop the use divisions over israel's because of all contrast with swift agreements on action against russia for inviting ukraine. but henry blocked a ukrainian funding package and has been backed by the voc. yeah, in demanding e u. policy changes. so with vito powers for member states and 27 different governments involved, the you structure can make finding consensus, a complex and a times in most of the task because my that have been months it but also is there a inside story? the oh, that's not good for august. first up, suzanne lynch. she's the politico news organizations, chief brussels correspond to joins us now from that. and also learn we have julian von stacy, the director of the middle east and north africa program of the european council on foreign relations and invalid. and we have been arrows who's the founder and editor

in chief of be any and tell the news a business media company focusing on imagine markets. thanks so much for joining us on the inside story. now when it comes to the war on garza, we know there has been deep divisions as we have just been reporting. but that division is overseas for it seems from what we're hearing in brussels. there is now some unity of what may happen that the so called day off to even germany. now students support of israel from the beginning is speaking about a 2 state solution. so we're talking about a monthly meeting of u foreign ministers, but they do have some special guests this month. i see. and this of tends to be some kind of draft road map to peace that's going to be discussed. gene is the use fighting for relevance. hill has what happens in the red sea over the last of the was that pop some, there's a fire on the some you need is do you think? well, i think the crisis and god is his really expose the, the sense of the relevance of weakness in the middle east. and these,

there's obviously a lot that was happening in the wall and the places where the prices are asked about how important and how relevant 0 again, certainly what's happening in the middle east in the got the year in the rooms because the bottom of the ladder in terms of importance that it's, it's, the arab states is there on the same throughout the us and then some way behind it, the europeans don't really have a position and they don't really bring much to the table. so there are a lot of questions being austin, and then i would do questions on what the sense of nuclear herron's behind a 2 state solution try. i'm not something they will symbolic be set for months for . yes. the question is, will they do anything to put it in that direction? what are they prepared to leverage in terms of their relation to the palestinians with these ratings with aerospace, and they're a huge divisions on the line of sale. so there's a long way to go before we really talk about i come here in europe and position. yeah. certainly. sounds like it. well, just talking briefly before we move on to, to the broad a situation in gaza. i want to focus

a little bit on what's happening on the red sea. now the who sees that have said the actions in the red sea, a direct consequence of the war on garza. but oh, you find ministers actually making that think from the sounds of things, then it does feel like they're being treated almost a separate issues, a separate issues. and i the, i think the definitely linked to the, the, the hoops ease of being a closing down. and, and taking sides the targeting is right ships. but at the same time, the, the letting chinese brushing ships go through. and you know, it's my mind. this is a longstanding spirit and the rivalry all 5 relations between that which is and is right is but i mean, it's also of getting caught up in the, in the why the conflict that we have in here with the show down between, between russia and the west china is involved in that as well. and so then they send, they, they being accused of a plane sides of being used as to why that so uh,

and then boots this campaign against the states. so the situation is getting roughly more complicated because at least like just clipping as well. let me bring in suzanne. here. suzanne, do you think that what's happening in the red sea is perhaps an opportunity to, to find some kind of european unity then on our time issues when they also divided on the things? i think the issue in the red fee is actually more contentious because within the you, you've got certain member states who have very strong military presence, very strong defense identity and you've others who are beautiful, who are not members of nation. so they are certainly not going to want to get involved in anything that they feel as to mid a tree that might escalate situation. so yes, it's part of the discussion that's happening just across the road for me here in brussels today at 5, at some kind of you mission in the red sea from german. it's we, the 3 biggest countries are spearheading bass, but they already, you know, have their own country. they already have a strong presence there. we've had belgium said it's going to kind of add

a new tackle onto this as well. but the discussion is going to be about uh, making this part of an existing mission rather than starting a whole new initiative. and the read to i don't think it's going to be an appetite for that, that you level. and it's not what the you is about really, you know, it's, that's kind of more the job of nation or middle tree ally. and so i think that is going to be controversial even though as you say there it is on the agenda. so let's see, it is we found some jeremy get sufficient at bye in for that from other countries today. so just to be clear that the naval mission that we're talking about here is separate from the us led naval mission authority taking place in the red sea. that's operation prosperity, guardian. that was a us led mission. but even though a number of you members did sign up to operation prosperity, guardian, and felt like very few, if any actually deployed. i've been wondering when was this a capacity issue for the you or was it a political one,

was about perhaps the us leadership that we wish to circle back little bit. i mean, you said in your opinion, i believe was set up as a trade club and essentially it remains that there, there is no sort of b u government, per se. i mean, you have people like joseph burrell, who's normally the, the foreign minister, but, but he's mandate is only to make foreign policy as far as trade is concerned. so the system was extremely well when things are going well and what's making money. however, when we come to the crises like this, then there isn't actually a, there's no european army, there's not a you, i mean. and so at the end of the day, the member states, you know, they make southern decision to get involved minutes. i really. and in this case, what they like to do is try and act in unison and acts and represent the you. but at the end of the day is the collection of individual countries making this decision. and as we saw with the, the us, let's ministry initiative to try and bring the fighting to events that many people are coming in at hall at the level of each nation. and so we have

a very confused situation here and i thing, but what will end up happening is individual countries, powerful minister. everyone's like, like a, like germany may send pauses and they would like to incorporation with the rest the that they see themselves as a club. but it's not a government. it's not a government that can make a decision. like everybody has to come speak to jennifer. i'm to ship, so $200.00 soldiers or whatever to send them. and so what we're seeing in brussels now is this, this discussion with some friends have made up their minds and they're trying to coordinate with their friends in the you. and then do something with the collective friends, but you'll see only certain countries actually actively participate. so again, each country has a different view is different levels of use yet, as well as i understand the documents around this mission that's been floating around brussels and proposes sending i'm going to get at least 3 warships with multi mission capabilities and not going happen as early as next month we've been talking about some of the countries we've been saying they might deploy. my

understanding is that those, those countries might then cycle through. you might have all the countries and sending in other ships and then those other countries pulling the ships out. julie, what should we make of all of this? is this all being primarily driven by economic concerns? absolutely. what side of the red sea is about the maritime shipping routes, and it's about keeping them open. that is always a concern enough, and it really do miles to keep the problem in the close. that will have a knock on inflation. in fact, effect on your cell. so that was driving this half the nature of how it was playing out. i, i think it's driven by some of the concerns laid out by, by ben suzanne. and i think, you know, fundamentally the europeans want to do some kind of monitoring mission here. that pushes invitation by, i don't think that real desire is to get engaged with the same kind of military offensive dimension that the americans have a personal here. i think that's one of the key divisions as well. i mean, so that in the, in the part in golf a couple years ago off the rain attacks as well. the europeans believe that they

can take a more middle ground position that allows them to keep the space of the risk, drawing them into the same level. complet, the americans bound box you on the original complet were obviously there's a lot of concern about the dangers of this bar. the out of control of costs will see that. then let me ask you, do you have a sense of, of, if the us a tool was in consultation with it. so you realize before deciding to take those, those strikes on recei positions. and then obviously they're having a huge concerns about escalation and the you is directly involved given the, the, the, the geography and the suez canal. what, what conversations are going on right now between washington and brussels? so yeah, i think there are definitely conversations going on, particularly between national count. those are those big countries you mentioned to have already sent, you know, mid a tree help. so from germany that it should be the g 7 countries on the age of which is also based here in brussels, but not on e u. member states, most of them,

but not all of our members of nasal. their conversations happening there as well. so yes, there are conversations going on about this, but the u. s. has been said already the, the block is not going to decide at to send a military mission into the red sea because certain countries are going to block at the neutral countries and are going to block that. they don't want to escalate the situation. but, you know, i'd say here, there will be an willingness by some countries to go that bit further. and you're right. you mean the geography here is interesting. the was right beside this port economically that affecting all of the, the west different countries including the us. but i do think that the us perspective here is very much waiting on an opinion here in both of them. that's because there's a growing frustration among the number one is not doing enough to persuade israel to stop the advancement guide, but it's as simple as that. and it is significant that today we have the as really foreign minister here in brussels. we're also going to have a senior palestinian,

they're not going to meet, but we also have the foreign ministers of saudi arabia, egypt. that is very unusual to have that mixture of people here today. so it's showing that the e u does want to shape events even though it's not going to come forward with this huge mandatory capability. is that at the moment it's 27. it's. it's collective ways that it can try and politically bring some pressure, particularly on israel. and meant to maybe restrain a bit more. i think it's been a lot of consternation. i've had to comment from benjamin netanyahu in the last few days. and i've not wanting it to states making, even though i've been said, you know, people have lost faith in the idea of the 2 state solution. that is the official policy of the i'm the united states. so for nothing yahoo to come out and say the public day, i think people are worried here. the us is not using the into instead, everyone knows it has an israel effectively enough. and that's why the was trying to get these senior figures around the table and trying to kind of affect a bit more change. that's really interesting. as the desktop has mounted and as us

will has continued, we have seen some distinct shifts in the rest of the week from some you need is my call know to somebody the french president, julian, are you seeing and hearing that elsewhere? well, i think as soon as that it says there's a lot of frustration to that unhappiness with what we say the the recent statements by nothing yahoo holding out the prospect of the palestinian stage and the political track. there's obviously immense concern about the debt tall 25000 palestinian scale now, but there are still huge divisions and i don't think the europeans are coming to a place where they're really gonna push together. you have a number of states coatings that's huge by saying that this have to well now, but you have a number of very important states. the john of the also it is a hung evans who continued to block a meaningful question against these rates from a european perspective. so, until we don't have that unity amongst the 27 and ready to have the t o o d u as a whole,

to push for the line here. i'm sure i am one of the americans of the arab states to put pressure on the, on these raised on the, on the palestinians. bureau is coming out very loudly at the moment. he's making some bold statements about what needs to be done and the drive is on the causes of the problem. but he very much feature themselves as opposed for the 27 and i think that's what we see the big weakness of the european position. yeah. you mentioned burrell that i was looking at some of his comments today and increasingly that the turn of that is increasing the critical of israel. on monday he said, when he was talking about a 2 state solution and, and this and yahoo is pushed back on that. he said, what are the other solutions they have in mind make over the palestinians, leave kill all of them the way they are destroying a mouse is not the way to do it. the ceiling, hateful generations. and that's, that's a really, really strong statement. she's on. do you think we're getting some insights here and to browse personal views on the complex? yeah, if you did interesting figure, he's the top diplomatic. he just is spanish. he's from a socialist and background,

so he is very, he's always be more on the pro palestinian side. and he won't say that for me with that about 3 hours. it's not a surprise really is coming out with those statements. but i think it does get to the problem with even foreign policy, who speaks for the you? because in the of all of these institutions that are around me here at brussels, you've got to your pink time. so you've got the, you've got the european commission with different people heading those institutions . so we saw 1st of underlying the european commission present, committed strongly at the beginning for israel. then we have yielded brown, who's based, or a couple of doors down st. something completely different. so this is the problem for the when it comes to foreign policy. there isn't somebody who's the president of europe, who's speaking for europe now on this issue, we're seeing big divisions, i think, personally and politically between, for example of underlying a german politician and burrell, a spanish politician at from different political traditions. so that, that has been filtering down among members states as well. and i think that as

adding to this sense of incoherence on friday, they are not in agreements, germany is still on a very, very different page than belgium, spain in ireland. and we saw this in the way in to the meetings this morning here in bravo, some very different statements from foreign ministers. i don't see how that's going to be resolved, if anything, this, and in current conflict in the middle east is just underscoring the divisions that are off in the you about this topic. suzanna the divisions that you were talking about that primarily relate to to the war on garza. and i'm wondering about whether those divisions are ripley cases when it comes to, to dealing with the red sea and dealing with the cookies and, and the conflict. and yeah, and then, and whether or not those are being linked, then let me ask you for your take on that. well, germany in particular is an extremely difficult position. i mean, they've been treating this whole trouble, this whole problem with, with kid gloves, because particularly on the line who came out and made very strong statements. but technically, it's for us to go around to make for our policy or represent the, the,

you as a party and on policy. and that she was encroaching in to his terrace radio and indeed has stopped. i think some 800 members of us stop complains and formerly publish this next as saying that she should back home. but obviously germany doesn't want to open a substitute child's and i just semitism given the legacy of the 2nd world war. and so that being very, very cautious. but um, as calling from from police go was saying, you know, the divisions within your multi folder. everyone has a different position. and like i said before, it comes back to the fact that, you know, there is no sort of government to you that there's no units either. any decision that you make has to be approved by 027 members. and so everyone has been so i it's, and so it's hurting caps basically to get anything out. and when you have a crisis like this, and it's difficult, but with lots of very sensitive suffix, uh,

the effect director, you members face different advice then getting it consensus extremely difficult. and at the end of the day, i think coming back to the ministry action the, you know, your as how continues to sell to under the us security. i'm about to investing advice on the american side that people are not paying enough. they don't meets in that 2 percent of gdp commitments. and again, here we are in a situation where ministry's goal for because the red sea and bet channel the suicide canals attempted send above the trade goods through them because it ends up in the mediterranean. so for the you, this crucial, crucial try and they need to keep it open somehow. but what's happening is that i think the americans take the leads and that the now saying that, but our interest so effectively is that we have to get it somehow. and then when we do that, we're going to try that to this team. but getting a teen so to who, you know, sit in the same direction. this is pretty much all right, and then you say it's like heading cats and all of these cats have, they are in different concerns at home. julian,

how much do you think these positions that we're seeing within the you all being driven by domestic interest? and so i think uh, specifically the, the huge amount to, to which can we can talk about the speed of domestic politics. i think the red sea is different, and i think actually there's probably a lot on unity on that issue of domestic lima lead is about the need to respond and for the europeans, the staff will be at the divisions about how did i mention of military use but, but on the play the best in politics and in germany, austria, it goes back to the historical legacy of, of the 2nd. well who you have state right spade, unintelligible, the above background of all paid comes to the palestinian across or obviously has a large a population with, with linked to them. at least i mean, these are the issues that are playing out in domestic politics. they're very much shaping the narratives and the debates, and then i'm pushing a different leave is impressions on,

on leaders i guess be sold for somebody that was my front shift from a firm is ready position at the beginning of towards a more towards the quarter for a ceasefire so absolutely, there's a strong element of domestic politics here and that kind of be the 1st to so i'm going to elections coming out of europe and by the next elections, all of that is feeding into that debate. so given the amount of domestic pressure to try to find some kind of resolution one way or the other from all the different, the different people in a population is that what came out in the you? i'm wondering about how much influence the you actually has to, to affect any kind of change at the moment a shooting. let me ask you about the amount of leverage you might think that the you has, particularly with the palestinians. there was a send a huge amount of age of the palestinian authority. is it primarily through battle, or is there a broader conversation here with all the rest of the regional actors? the worst thing is 2 things. this doesn't mean you get to know my card,

which is obviously yours tradition, strep thing. they get a huge amount of a to the p a, the kind of thing, you know 30, they're also israel largest trading, not know. so that, that gives them a lot of info to the account. but the question is, are they willing to politically deploy that? and they say, well then that wouldn't be good to. it's because the conversations we have with the state, the americans, i mean, then the europeans would bring something to the table that they might be able to use in partnership with other states to the european position on the policy in the united issue on these right. issues that divide it about issues of means and no one really takes them seriously. i certainly don't mind the military might to that to the table because of the divisions amongst the 27. there's no unified political stance or given the search for relevance here, as we were talking about it at the beginning and, and the, the need for the you to try to find some kind of of career and starts on this. let me all series on, do you think any kind of a reform is likely to try to create some kind of infrastructure for that to be

a more coherent foreign policy position? is there a conversation going on around that? what would that even look like? so yeah, there has been a conversation where there's and there always has been a, by the need to add at the moment you need unanimous agreement from all the countries to agree. serious issues are in foreign policy. so it means one country can block things. and that's a lot of people thought a year ago. you know, that needs to be changed because hungry was talking about a policy on, on russia and ukraine. now how that would happen would be very complex because you have 3 fees, and you would have to change that pre g. i'm that could trigger a referendum in some countries like the netherlands, ireland, at, for example. and people don't want to do that. so they're trying now to find a way within the treaty that reopening all the meat of texts, and there's a few little options you could do that could chain through the room this. but then i think that again, made it, it was that was an easier conversation on russian ukraine when basically everyone agrees except one country with now with the middle east. you've got so many

divisions on this and that some countries will be comfortable with the idea that this can be rammed through. they want this debate, they won't be able to restrain you if they don't agree with some ways that's going on the middle east. so look, foreign policy then apart from that, you put the ministry dimension. that is very, very tricky because some people call to the european army. but some countries will not agree with that. they will say that's not the job of the use of trading block and, and they will be show that. so yes, it's a discussion boards. i think this actual divide over the middle east has made it less likely. not more likely that the was going to move towards the unified foreign policy given that's the case, then let me give you the law. say here is the using influence and leverage in the region. given the deep divisions that we see and that we'd like to see, and i think it is i thing these in trouble that the boys restroom, particularly cutting off the gas cheap gas, the pilots,

the hold of the particular gemini, which then pilot, everyone else has been a huge problem and that is suffering economically. politically to i mean his son is so, you know, to be divided as a to not be consist that's the whole underlying thing. backing is ro when, when other parts of the, the we're, we're backing out a sign or at least coordinate for a ceasefire, has shown up to the rest of the, well, the purple south is looking at all of this and the same. we'll let you keep talking about bad news, but push comes to shove, be just pursuing your interest. so doing what the americans, so each to and so it's, it's being taken less seriously as a result on the substitute form though that's going to have to happen. and the issue there is, if, if you crane is admits it's the you, then a 3rd of what the does is a combination of cultural purposes. and that's the amount of money that you find will be in time for you to either come on under kind of rules. mean the you budget

was types um hold funding is going to have to be changed. and so is this serious about that and you'd kind, it seems they are, then that has to be this reform and it needs to be moved from branch to coming to the cultural publish. it needs to be done in the voting system. everyone's very unhappy with that think that's but it's effective date so that everyone gets also hungry is being exercised. so how do you actually do? it's because you have some have unanimous agreements to make these changes to who is good. i don't see how it can be done, it won't be done, but there's a lot of a sudden it sounds like it's a moment to of reckoning if suddenly self reckoning for the european union been iris. suzanne lynch and julian bond. stacy, thank you so much for joining me here today on inside story and thank you to for watching. remember, you can see this program again any time by visiting our website out to 0. don't com . and prefer the discussion to go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you can also always join the conversation on x. so handle is at

a inside story. for me as soon as you pay and the whole team here. and uh huh. i said that the one, somebody shoot, somebody else dead. most people expect the police to arrive, which handcuffs on that person, and take them to jail. and then stand your ground. you can shoot somebody in getting your truck and drive away. is that unusual? that is very unusual because we're talking about the crime of murder, but it's a very clear in the statute. they don't want anybody arrested. that's why it's a get out of jail free card. it's time you pull the trigger. what do you think the shooter wasn't arrested? because of the law. i feel like she's hiding behind the stand your ground.

the seems of panic in hon. eunice displaced palestinians desperately trying to escape from the it's really bombardment the i'm several then you get the have you with this? this is elsa 0. live from the also coming up the worst single day. last for is really soldiers and gaza since the war began. at least 24 has been killed. the you.