the on the go and the tonight out is there is only move i laugh is that the, this is where we, the sex from out is there is move i laugh, available in your favorite types to just that for it and type to move the new app from out to 0, new at using is it the israel is driving ahead with his genocide a war on gaza. it? well, it's massacring palestinians. it's failing to destroy him. us as a world watches israel is carrying out of that small so with western supplied weapons without restraint. so all we add a pivotal point in history for both the policy and people and israel. this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program and the bulk of the level of violence unleashed by israel and have mass since october is unprecedented. even in the history already stained by conflict and injustice. since the state of israel was established, the great wound of history for palestinians, the napa will catastrophe was a modern count of pots with a level of death, destruction displacement, and despair unimaginable of the decades of repression. they've suffered for his release of mazda slaughter and capture of so many of its citizens, a shock to nation whose identity stems from the horrors of world war 2 seems reminiscence of those times on now, the landscape of much of gauze is being flattered and by weapons mostly supplied by the us and western allies and cools for a cease fire light by the united nations. i'm echoed around the world. have been rejected by as well as far right government. so is the will with missing across

roads in history for the palestinians and israelis, along with the western allies. and what does this mean for the integrity of international law and the kind of weld, or that will be asking our panel of gas, these questions. and just a few moments time, but 1st consume sharif report. so how this war unfolded, this whole homos attack southern is while on october, the 7th. the most fluoride government in the country's history had been ramping up a tax. i'm kidding. so palestinians from early 2023 rates, including attacks and refugee camps in the okay, pod westbank and occupied east jerusalem. adding to cooling numbers of attacks on palestinians by this riley settlements incursions by jews and is really forces into the outlook some of the one of the who use places in islam outreach palestinians during the month of ramadan last year. it's rarely police attempt to push both

inside the most, posing move widespread, and the un secretary general lead to implied such events and decades of oppression . with her pre closer to come off as weights. it is important to also recognize the effects by miles. the lots happen in a vacuum of the policy that people have been subjected to 56 years of civil gauging occupation after crippling 16 years is rarely brocade. goss us, $2400000.00 palestinians announced facing the full force of the nothing yahoo governments, genocide is what they say and we are at war. i'm not an operational. how much has launched a mode or a surprise attack against the state of israel and its citizens? i ordered, 1st of all, to clayton's the settlements from the terrorist food infiltrated and ordered a large scale mobilization of preserves. the enemy will pay

a price. he's never known. cause of health ministry says nearly 26000 people have been killed. most of them children and women. now that's what i tell you. what did this go to? what crime did you commit? was she a terrorist? did this baby fire rockets? i just was most of you probably called a lot what's happening has to the protest was by the demonstrators calling for the genocide and gaza to stop nearly 85 percent of its people have been forced to move many from home since flattened by is really forces you and experts say, palestinians, and casa on the verge of simon. they've been to brief pauses, part of deals negotiated by capo run egypt for the release of is riley captives held in garza more than 100 had been swapped in exchange for palestinians. heavy news rarely changes the will,

has caused catastrophic humanitarian crisis in district hospitals have been bombed and doctors forced to carry out surgeries without an aesthetic some of the sick and injured a dying due to a lack of basic medicine. generations of palestinian families have been wiped out in time. a neighborhoods would use to top of every day. that's, you know, with we don't say i'd arrive at the ceasefire. you know, it's a day that we call into another one thousands. but a scene is being either killed or in even injured. and now, southern garza, the last place of for fusion and most displaced, people are sheltering is being boned, as well says it's will aims to destroy him us yet. most victims have been civilians . policy named 5 to continue to launch attacks on january 22nd 24 is where the soldiers were killed the most in a single day since the war began. the prime minister netanyahu was pressing on and

rejecting a 2 state solution is defined note upsetting them from ally the united states that strongly back to as well as military operation in the castle with money. and that the president reiterated his strong conviction and the viability of the test, the solution, palestinian, see little hope, open into the suffering, and many fear a full blown bull could erupt individually. on the consumption eve, i'll just see the inside story outcome and okay, well that's spring and i guess in london, ontario, canada, my cooling cars are full of the united nation special wrap up there when the human rights in the occupied palestinian territory. here in the tunnel come moods, who is a professor of public policy specializing in gauze over the the institute for graduate studies. and in philadelphia, ross seagal,

who is an associate professor at stockton university and a specialist in holocaust and genocide studies. i probably will welcome to all 3 of you. we have an awful lot to cover on this program, but we are of course, looking at the impacts of this conflicts and whether or not it will change history going forward. so moving 3 months of bull while over 25000 people, that 60000 injured, 85 percent of gauze has displaced and almost 400000 people in gauzy, already in farming. on the brink of famine, michael, look, if i can turn to you, this is like a war and modern times like nothing we've seen before. how would you describe it? it certainly is a war replenished to with, with war crimes. we can talk with a cobra 7th, but we can talk as well about these with the way in which israel has conducted this war for the past 3 and a half months of the use of starvation. the denial of the basic necessities of life going to a population. the use of

a 2000 pound bombs dropped repeatedly in heavily uh, subjectively and areas. and the way in which a civilian infrastructure churches, most schools, universities, hospitals, have all been damaged or destroyed. all of these very clear war crimes arise to attending to you. this conflict appears to have off handed many, many things around the world, including israel's international credibility. and indeed it's on me that there's always been a pillar of its way the security and the state. do you think we can ever go back to the way things well before this conflict? you know, of course not. i don't think that there's a going back to before as customers to of october. i think that to the i see game case is already unprecedented. and already a major change because israel is actually standing a trial on the charge of genocide, which no one would have imagined that's just several months ago. so i think that

this is a water should a moment was far reaching implications around the world. it's also very likely that we will see a decision, or that it is very plausible that israel has indeed engaging a genocidal ass. and it's a to con, guys, a, a. so again, no, i think that this is a water should the moment that we're waiting to speak right now, i'm tom. do you share those thoughts? yes, of course me. i mean them. um, as i put a scene in, um uh, this is significant for us as part of the team is because it was established on uh an occupied land on, in, in 1948. and of course this, i mean, the foundation of this occupation was the what happened the new to the holocaust, which is that in this crime. so now it's for the 1st time history, we see the grand sons and daughters of the holocaust survivors standing in front of

the system, the injustice they have to have suffered for the good for what they're doing for the cotton photo crimes, which is the genocide them does it so it's fixity and the significance, what's happening? and i think that the bidding is whole, the whole, but for accountability, for the input, for justice. and i'm most impressed with the hopes for ending this occupation less than 4. or, i mean if, if, if is a eventually starts feeling, the pressure, the understanding is that a precautions of what this has, what it has done in gaza uninstall this, done that for keeping it's a good patient and full of what's happening and doesn't know what's this good, good, good, bring us closer to just as a goes up to ending this conflict. it's better than at the national with already and that the nation when to put pressure one is what i had and to find ways to end distribution once on forever. i just remind me of here is we are recording this before the international court of justice makes any kind of ruling of a in the hey, but some picking up on something you've mentioned that time. and i want to put this

to michael if i can come fixing stuff, expose massive international contradictions in the world order with western powers, especially the u. k. the united states and germany continuing to shield israel from international criticism. what does this moment mean for the post 2nd world world world will order an order that, of course, has been dominated by european western powers for so long a good rate with respect to this. and in many ways this, this more this assault on, on gas, as, as exposed to fracture points between the global north and the, and the global cells. we've seen overwhelming opinion in the global cells in favor of a cease fire as, as early as late october. and this was expressed in the un general assembly resolution, which voted overwhelmingly, i think the vote was a $153.00 to $10.00 in favor of a, of an immediate cease fire and over well, only supported by countries from the global sales with the global north either of

staining or voting that or voting against. and we see these pressure points in the way in which we talked about international law. after all, it was a global north, your up and north america, who put into place our modern system of international law. and yet when it comes to vital issues like israel and palestine, we see international law being disregard it. it's a concept of international law for the but not for me. we can think of the many ways in which the united nations resolutions of said that israel is violating international all through atlantic station through it's it's settlements through it's refusal to recognize that there's an occupation through the refusal of palestine and self determination. all of these are well imbedded in international law. i've developed an insignificant bird by the golden north, yet it refuses to apply this. and the reason why we have such a horrible war going on a gas a now is a lack of accountability over the last 75 years in the last 56 years with respect

to israel's conduct towards the palestinians. right, right. so that's an interesting point raised by michael, that there is this fisher there. is this divide between the global? no, but i'm the global south between the traditional center of global power and many developing companies in the global south. and those big the question now. where is the moral access globally? i think it's to the, it's to just to follow on what michael said, and to emphasize that the, the, when the international legal system reimbursed after world war 2, genocide was its key innovation. right? the crime of genocide and was really based in many ways on the idea that the holocaust of a nazi assault against jews was, was unique. so the, the idea that the holocaust was unique was very foundational in the emergence of the crime of genocide. and therefore, israel, when it emerged as the states,

the jewish state, the state of the holocaust survivors, it also actually became unique in this international framework. so, impunity for israel was really based into the international legal system from the very beginning. and it was based actually, paradoxically, on the crime of, of genocide, some of the cartridge and so you really served to ensure disappear and it needs a shield israel from international law to, to create the sub sort of situation where we're seeing decades as michael said, of violations across violations of international law by israel. now this is why this is such a water shooting moment because israel genocide, if the on guys is so clear it's so interface because you know, side all intent is like, you know, well heard and seen it. so clearly, right, so now genocide actually service right to hold, right. we all hope to see hold is real accountable. and this is why is this such a water shooting moment because the meaning of the concept of genocide, right?

and the international legal system is changing and as i said, this has far reaching implications beyond the case of israel and palestine. the beyond, guys for marginalize, for per security loops around the world. because this is an opportunity, really the change in a fundamental way. the international legal system and how it functions, primarily for marginalize in particular groups in the global south. so rather if i understand you correctly, you know, people is to, to, to time, uh, it appears as if the entire system is already being for probably a long time, skewed towards israel. is that the reason tom, uh why it is now very difficult in the to find any consensus, any kind of strategy for permanently ending this conflict to where the, coming up with something concrete, when it comes to the so called day off to as you know, what it means, i mean, i mean, that has been like so many international resolutions in favor of palestine and favorite all of the students having independence. i think that i taught their own

state live longer side by what they said i am. but the thing is with enforcements, i mean the, the, i mean, i mean, you have all the citizen oceans. i mean, i come up to quote all of them now. but the us as own was more or less predicted. these are the and enable the continue with the commission to us on certain what size, of course and, and that's a problem. the problem is it is what it is treated as a, as a, as a, as a states above international. i know it's coming up, but i a states and it's also it's becoming more of a, some of the ability even for its own allies and fuckers and, and that was because, i mean, i mean this many of these spots for most of the countries that are the ones who are involved in establishing that the national law, as we see, you know, especially after the 2nd world war and now they kind of keep they focusing on the complicit complicity. the truth is what are the for the then but any other countries? so and so that's the problem. the problem is enough for the all funding is an

umbrella of protection and it has to be if, if it's a member of the international community, it has obligations of the task to please be treated so much any other country. when this happens then we haven't at the national that the, it's comfortable by with and it's going to be respected. now when it comes to the future of guys, the end of the after what we see so far it is sadly again. busy busy we see tendencies to repeats. uh, what also brought, which means, imposing a deal on the scene is that they have no c and it's the excluding a key part to keep political pop t like thomas from any future negotiations. and, and, and, and, and, and that's a problem. i mean, 11 key issue with also that it was a but not the sting of the consensus. so you had the piano at the time that by set the and the it was back to the sign a piece agreement with with the girl. nothing because the fraser as if she was

a to abide with also a piece of goods. now, how about us as an outcome of this, for the process of, of this 25 years of field experience is field piece process, which was a peaceful bite of i know. but what's happening is the tendency, again to impose a solution for the student is that neglects, i keep the sooner the pop t like thomas. so it's, it's going to in the middle of the again, okay, so tell me if i understand you correctly, there is a danger that could be repeated by potentially marginalizing certain palestinian voices. that will mean this entire proposal, the possibility of palestinian statehood. a 2 state solution could potentially bike 5, michael, let me to. and so you, because in the past 2 weeks we've had the us, the u. k. the, you will reiterate the need and the urgency for a 2 state solution it spring. and of course, the united nations position for so long now we'll have in bold and benjamin netanyahu to now say flatly, no, as well. i think the main reason is, is that he's never learned or never known any cost for the occupation. if you can

continue building settlements, a war crime under international law without any consequences, he can maintain to manage the occupation and not engage in any kind of a piece talks real or not with the palestinians and not face any uh, any cost for doing this. um, he has a strong diplomatic shield will be on a me, a united states protecting him. so he's able to continue with the settlements, which makes the 2 state solution and possible. keep in mind that as you know, when the international community, particularly the global north, keeps on talking about a 2 state solution. this becomes a sweet spot for israel and it's far right government because it's also, it's a possibility that there is we can, we can devise a work whole 2 state solution all the while, while israel faces no consequences in continuing to put more settlers and build more settlements in east jerusalem and the west bank, which makes that impossible. and that's the same thing. true for the united states

. it talks about a 2 state solution, but does nothing to stop israel for making that a possibility a, a reality. so, i'm afraid you'll always give israel one of suffering a political nervous breakdown in 2005 when removed 8000 settlers from from guys a water way to expect when israel has somewhere between 725740000 settlers and eastern routes on the west bank, which the international community says is designated palestinian state. how are we to believe that a 2 state solution now is even possible. rugs cleaned an awful lot of frustration coming from the u. k. the u. s. germany and others on the you earlier on this week about benjamin netanyahu was on bending position when it comes to to say she lives solution to think of a long run. it's going to hurt israel. i mean, it's a, i think that israel force is uh, will find itself now in

a very difficult situation. again, as i said, i think it's likely that we'll see the i c j uh decision tomorrow that it's plausible that as well as conducting unicycle acts that will put to israel and severe isolation internationally, also among its allies, primarily the u. s. there's also an ongoing court in case that will actually will have a session of it on friday, right after the i c j decision in california. the case that the center for constitutional rights has brought against a president biden and against a lincoln in austin, on complicity with genocide and failure to present prevents genocide by the us. continued to support israel militarily and diplomatically with an icy j rolling israel's allies. and not only israel's allies, but you know, think about any university, any company, any state around the world will now need to continue or not continue its engagement

with israel with the knowledge that it's very possible that israel has and is conducting a site or a package and guides us. yes, i think that is real and it's very difficult a situation um and which, which adds of course to the fact that this is a watershed moment. um and the with it, as i said, for example, the patient, it's very, it's very difficult and there's also a run. well just just to recap on where we are with this case because of the case was board. of course, just remind me of us by south africa and accusing israel of committing genocide. and to be clear that decision on genocide could be use a way if it comes a tool. but at this stage, the court will issue an injunction known as provisional measures in order to prevent isabel from continuing its military campaign. the point being on the ground so that the genocide may be plausible to tom. oh, is it? do you think there's something the united states knows about israel's conduct and

this conflicts that the world doesn't? as the name of, i mean is sadly that the state is, is, is, uh, as apartment a place that i live in this, and this what i mean it's, it's supplying, insulated with, instead of just with the, with weapons, with logistics. i mean, name it, i mean, it also contained his way to, from the one you know, to ensure that this conflict won't turn into additional conflict. so the americans, and these are you, these are in bed together sub that means. so yes, of course, i mean that us knows a lot about it and that, but i hope i hope i please. i mean, the americans also have realized that things are getting out of control under becoming so ugly. they since the international. and i'm good all for the continuation of this genocide, the hold on guys and, and what, what you being able to these, i mean, i mean so, so i think that i hope that i'm at the point to realize that 2 months protection,

4 days a week would bring more light, but it just to them as well. so on the able to please to use this case to, to, to put pressure on is what i'm to end the sort. i'm 2 or 3 days of the piece. i mean, that's the only way to go. this conflict cut off to be ended up going up and by violence or by contribution for completion. it's some, it's all for these times out over thomas. so that is your hopes going for that this has to be, i want to shed moment so going forward. let me turn in the last couple of minutes of the show to michael and then ross to also share what you think from what you've seen in recent days. recent weeks might be something that we can pin hope on going forward. let's start with you, michael. i wish like a pinhole with respect to this, you know, history is full of occasions when there was a turning point and somehow history didn't turn. i thought that the history that reached attorney point in 1993 with the oslo accords as on history had reached the

turning point for the 2nd and the found to in 20022003 with a thought that maybe there was a roadmap to the piece and then a 2 state solution. and i'm as, as awful as the situation is now with over 25000 palestinians killed. and again i was a flat and i am not convinced that history will wind up turning. and this point either . so we have to think our base our hopes on, on what's realistic on the ground rather than rather than a pure hope on this. thank you, michael enter. you rouse your hopes? yeah, i think that the situation and guys catastrophic and we need to keep this funded center. i. i don't think that it's, you know, i don't think that we can really speak maybe in the language of hope as michael said. but i think that we are hearing more of palestinian perspectives. we with the streets around the world. there is, you know, in the us has experienced the largest and longest protest movements and its history since the vietnam war and across the world. there are protest. this is really what

lead south africa to file. it's a case in the i c j. so this is actually a moment, i think that there we're seeing more of the truths of what's going on in israel and palestine. not only since the ones that looked over it, but the broader context of is really subtler colonialism and mass violence and village i can vision and siege and so on. and the truth is, i think very, very important if we think about moving forward, if we think about just the 6 weeks think about the possible political a settlement. so again, i don't think that we can talk about hope when we see the levels of catastrophic disruption and killing in garza, which shouldn't be really front and center for us. but i think that there is, i think there is potential in this water should a moment for juice, for justice. we see it from below from the street. and that's very encouraging. and as i said, i think there's also so far reaching implications for the international legal system here for millions of people around the world or under attack were persecuted

. and this, this could now signal a huge or so there is hope. although we have clearly a very, very long way to go send queue, all 3 of you feel contributions, michael link crowds to go to. i'm a candidate and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting a website. how is there a don't comment for further discussion guide? well, facebook page, that's facebook dot com forward slash a j inside story. you can also join the conversation on x. a handle is as a j inside story from being default and the whole team here, the ballistics, c, comedian, shelter. it feels like something is wrong, the closest it has ever been to midnight. they will be met with fire and security

rise of anxiety. are you doing scrolling radio sleep already that you like just like exploring how exist, central threats to life impact the human psyche apocalypse may be coming soon on. outsourcing, in on the federal tax upfront takes on the big issue. that is the context to what is happening now. it says it's context questions, professional and unflinching questions. rigorous, the bank that he added to today is that another thing is taking place. augusta. nothing goes into gauze or without us of permission. nothing leads, profit without permission to allow me to push back for a moment, demanding of these fires, demanding an end to the root causes of all of this violence upfront without 0. once somebody shoots somebody else dead, most people expect the police to arrive, which handcuffs on that person,

and take them to jail. and then stand your ground. you can shoot somebody in getting their truck and drive away. is that unusual? that is very unusual because we're talking about the crime of murder, but it's a very clear in the statute. they don't want anybody arrested. that's why it's a get out of jail free card. it's time you pull the trigger. what do you think the shooter was interested? because of the law? i feel like she's hiding behind the stand your ground. i have the right to boycott. anyone i want to and the state has no business getting involved in that. and 3 pod series explodes, the implications of us and people who called lowest the freedom of speech and 1st amendment, brian, how many words would i have to exchange? and this legislation thing use it to flush free speech of anyone who supports language or is involved in protesting for environmental. and it's like 10 words pod,

3 the template on tuesday or the the tax buy is right. let's say lined up for food, hungry and desperate people, and gall so risk the lives to avoid starvation a possible new see foreign goals that will be discussed with the directors of the c. i a both sides and concerns. prime minister the this weekend, the gloves around me watching office, they were large. my headquarters here in the also coming up the un security council discussed as rush as allegations that to ukraine shut down

a military plane carrying ukrainian prisoners of war plus and all about a man dropped becomes the 1st.