yes, in this episode i examined how in the us rising, the got it in ism veterans to the gun to clock back on a country founded on secular ideas being report, fox, one on the side front is calls for talks and an end to the war. and ukraine comments rebuffed by keys, but welcomed in moscow. the war which is called thousands of lives continues with little movement by either side, should ukraine tool or find to own. this is inside story, the color, the, and welcome to the program. i'm jonah, how the war and ukraine has cost tens of thousands of lives and rages on just over 2 years off the rush is invasion. you're creating forces or fighting with weapons

supplied by the west and what's become the largest military engagement against russian forces in europe since world war 2. so i'm sorry, the fighting is at a stalemate, but the conflict remains of all the time. the danger in the heart of europe, russia is president for the me, a put in his again, war and the west that he's prepared to use nuclear weapons if the force is a used against his country. now the leader of the catholic church pipe, francis is quoting for peace negotiations, saying, raising the white flag for talks, takes courage. whose comments have been sharply rebuked by ukraine is a cool to surrender, but have been welcomed in moscow. so who's right is their merits, and what the pope has said, is it time to talk or should ukraine back by its wisdom, allies fight along and do the pope's views reflect thinking on the ukraine won't be on the earth into us. and the so called global south will be that discussing this and more with guests in just a few moments. but 1st this report from image and kimber. i'm what the pope actually said. and the reaction to is remarks a pipe francis,

the leader of the catholic church has urged an end to the ukraine rule in the store of negotiations. it's a position differing from ukraine, the us, and it's nato allies in the european union, without, by renee or the would negotiate is a courageous would. when you see that your defeated, when things aren't going well, you have to have the courage to negotiate. will make the shame, but how many will end up dead from this will. and he criticized the argument of self defense. so i am, boy, ye have it that you say that you have this responsibility to defend yourselves, but then you realize that they have to bomb the others. that's not defending, that's destroying. look what it will brings, death, destruction, children without parents. the pope's views have been sharply criticized in ukraine ukrainian presidency. lensky alluded to the pope's comment, saying, all religions in ukraine are united in fighting russia. yeah, job hope was,

but i think every ukrainian chaplain who supports the army. this is what happens when the church is with the people, not 2 and a half 1000 kilometers away, somewhere to mediate virtually between someone who wants to live and someone who wants to destroy you. the cranium for administer, dimitra cri, labor. said that a strong person gets done with a good role that's on the go shaping. the criticism of the pope's comments also came from poland, foreign minister, lat fees president and the head of the ukranian greek catholic church. so here, which has good relations with like russia and ukraine, has again, also to mediate tools and a piece somebody was being planned in switzerland without rush up here. and even though i stayed with me there by trumpet stomach, you were, we do not see russian representatives of this summit. we do not see how we can invite people that destroy and kill everything we want results. we want adjustment, peters adjusts piece on for ukraine. so 1st,

the civilized countries of the world will develop a plan to achieve results and then involve represent this from russia. those who are ready for adjusted piece will digital, ukraine's leader maintains that peace will not come at the cost of any of these countries. so for in territory on the bottle field, there's little movement on the front lines. apply and do crating and offensive. last year made little impact on, heavily defended russian lines. president vladimir putin suppose is hold parts of the east and crimea, which was onyx in 2014 and repeatedly launch misaligned and drawing a tax. when you cranium cities. all political bottles in washington could have a big se on what happens next. the squaring or positions of us republican politicians to the high cost of funding the will who wins the us presidential rice may also have a big impact. would ukraine and its european allies feeling what might happen to nato and us support? if donald trump wins reelection image and kimber,

i'll just 0 the inside story. the. well, that's bringing out a panel now in the ukraine capital key. if we have a lot of them, it get them and then co. he's chief editor of ukraine world with james to explain new kinds of politics and society to an international audience in russia's capital, moscow public. phil gonna, how is an independent rushing forward policy analyst under the english city of boss, patrick theory is a defense and security analyst, the senior electra at the university of boss and a former british army office. a welcome old to inside story and the media and the like. let me begin as is appropriate in this discussion with you and i want to just remind you of pipe francis's comments in that interview with switched television and on saturday he urge the parties to negotiate and to do so quote before things get worse. and he said the ukraine should have the courage to raise the white flag

your response to that. well, it's, it's of course inappropriate. so for uh, for poke to say that ukraine has to have garbage to raise the white flag because it was red in ukraine as the, as a coal for computer nation and for surrender. and it's indeed very, very strange to hear these words from the, from the poll from the chief of the church who is actually has to have just a very clear vision. what is good and what is evil when? when a country like russia enters ukraine and, and bombards every day, cdns, keats and women, and elderly, and residential houses. and believe me, i know what i'm saying because i've just returned from here. so on which has a seat on the front line, i go to the front line every every months and several, 10 times per month. i see the, the suffering of the previous ukrainians wants peace. of course,

they want these much more than that. anybody else in the world, the but they want just piece they want not occupation. then they want to not frustrate occupation, not russian forces who just put the people in the, in the, in the, in the, in the indian prison and torturing them. what is happening right? now, on the occupied churches, and i do think that people like bo premises have to be aware of that. well, the comments never the less will be received in moscow. bible felt the criminal giving them the some is up to tier offering to mediate talks, the global south. these in favor of it into the wall. they've seen their economies effective global food security in jeopardy. but in terms of where president putin stands on this, he may want to talk, but there's no sign whatsoever of him being willing to give any ground the tool, let alone try to find some middle ground and talks the most or from the beginning

of this more more or less from greece to march 22 of the russian crown on the fishing position was basically the us kind of in a ceasefire. was very much possible present the book and mention police that we had given that there was a tentative agreement achieved in march 22 talks and stuff. and they stumbled between the rest of them, the premiums. and that would be a basis because it'd be in the base. ready for more permanent ceasefire optometry, based on the more or less line of control as it is or as it was then or as it is right now. so that's why russia would want. and the yes also of course of pleasures of ukraine decreasing it's roundtree and the appraiser came out to her joy night.

so the fact would be sufficient to kind of call it a ceasefire for the time be. and so, so known as the so called a korea, uh, uh, a plan do i can uh, increase or have a ceasefire based of the wireless controlled, more or less like that. so yes, that's something that russia would want to ukraine refuses to accept believing that this could be only a temporary solution, like the end of the if you rush up cause for repairing its forces for maybe another a lot of attacks i see are coming up. but of course the ceasefire is the same rush, so there's the same cut off. who do i mean, who? sure. but nobody saw it on a crooked piece is better than a good fight. so yes, there has its merits. do kind of cool at the data, right?

now then continue this page bathtubs right now seems to be going nowhere was probably worth remembering before i bring in patrick theory that, that line of control in terms of a crooked face that you describe involves you credit and giving up silver and territory territory that was in nobody's doubt, was ukraine's before 2014 patrick barry. before we talk more about the substance of the war, the pros and cons of fighting on, bring us up to date, give us a sense. i know it's a big question, but give us a sense of whether we're actually stands. ukraine has lost some ground recently. there are signs of rush or advancing in some areas. the tipping point seems to be ukraine's di shorty, to munition and longer range missile weaponry. yeah, that's correct. uh, i think the, you know, to, to close the landscape, russia in the winter, which he,

you know, is a good way of selling it. no, i haven't had an operational level of breakthrough. it's not really how it's being fighting recently. and it's hard to achieve the breakthrough by far in the, in the secret because they're so much survey that has been drones and satellite take saturday. they so that offensive or, or is it an incentive and it's hard to break through. but in the, within the powered on the initiative, the mention is with most at the moment as being this time, like the western a coming in it should have started coming in in september or october. you know, on, on, russian essentially put its economy on a 75 percent when it started to churn. i'd stall and have some industry equipment and get some, uh, get into that room and attired. he's also learning. it's starting to learn much along there in, in the early stages of the war. and so that's now it's so ukrainians are under pressure, but it hasn't broken. yes. and the question is, can the russian was mass and breakthrough somewhere in the coming months or not?

but they are putting them under pressure on the plus side for the finance. they basically destroyed or damaged a lot of the black sea fleet for 2nd minor to be relieved. and they're getting the grain died from the front of the site, which is good. and they've done that seem to push for the air defense assets and taken out a lot of russian fighters and other strategically valuable aircraft recently that they may have lost some patriots on reading recently as a result of doing that. and they are highly valuable change. so the russians are getting into a better targeting loop in the word tightening that time. uh, so its hiding in the box. but the crucial thing is, is this a, you know, we asked me to, with the russians speed on march, the west, just not doing what it's promised to do, and certainly not do it quickly enough. so the picture there. so the slow moving front lines, a grinding, a criminal rule out of out. so i'm going to have the attitude in moscow would be what sure to peace negotiations that, that russia has more man,

it has more weaponry, it has more time. and the ukraine is running out of all 3, a sort of bound. right. well, what's the issue is much bigger country and it has the much bigger population and the much bigger defense industry, the entire cuz my foot mostly from the soviet union. and also of course you frame is under russian warm range of that pressure miss. i was, can fit any target in any parts or ukraine, ukraine, the come off the page that deep into russia though they had been increasing their tax using the most of the home, a drones attacking deeper into russia, russia, there has an advantage though a rush of air force does not fly through over the front line. it doesn't attack and you create a saving, you russians for air force as they didn't, syria after

a 2015 where they were highly effective. that's not working in ukraine. okay, that's a, that's also a very serious problems to both sides have problems on the sides of problems with the 2nd type piece. that's why the, that's why there's a, a, a still me because both sides have serious problems. below do me. i want to ask you about additional problems that may exist within you credit. and that perhaps the pope speaking about them opens that debate that people are thinking, but not necessarily saying i want to ask you about tensions within ukraine, within ukrainian society. because i've been there and i've seen the vibrancy and the energy of life and the big cities in the falls on the cafe is of the pack for the people. and i've seen and heard the tensions exist between people who are willing to lay their lives down and go to the front lines of people who perhaps are less willing. is there a creeping sense of pessimism now in ukraine that perhaps this war is not winnable?

well, of course, the initials exist and they will always exist in the society which is in the war. because on the one hand you have a big consolidation of this is to but on the other hand, you definitely have the oldest cracks within decided that you just described because of everything depends on the level of personal investment in personal sacrifice. and of course, this is very different different because depending on the family, depending on the on, on ethics and that would take. but frankly speaking, i don't see that fatigue and that exhaustion that sometimes is like imposed on ukraine for present in, in, in some, for in capitals. when people talking about this fatigue, i see the decisiveness of these creative society. i see the, the readiness of the people who are not on the front line to contribute for their resources with their time,

with their whole attaining work full for the victory. i personally just can testify that we are doing a lot of volunteer work to help the army as civilians and i don't have, i don't find any problems. when i, for example, try to get donations from, from the people. now, coming back to these war question, we need to understand very, very clearly that russia can say, of course, that let's negotiate, let's have this glee of scenario, whatever else we need to understand that this is for a game from the russian side. this is. ready these, this is all, this is joe political, these information, because obviously the want partition of your credit and this is what they clearly said they, they want partition of you credit or the, the one freely to control ukraine. so warranty, and they want to go farther. they want to have much bigger plans and they clearly say it is plans in,

in the propaganda about you are about other parts of the world. the more the supper and give the rest of the bar is dates it is expending. it tries to expend constantly meal in shortly, and when it is not expending, it has a fear that it will collapse. this is what is driving for. it's not not a question about this particular territory. this particular time we need to understand that this is this driving force in the russian expansion using that, these boulders, the new board, there's to josh who wants to join that they will not be stable or i shall wants to go farther and farther again. okay, well, we'll come to that question with pabo in just a moment. but as you said, staying with the war, what i really want to ask you is if you want confidence, the idea of negotiation sent in a, it's easy to understand. why can you draw a line from this point towards a point where ukraine forces rushes capitulation on the battlefield? can you see that happening?

well, it's all depends, of course, on, on the willingness of, of the training and people, but also on the billing this. oh, for all of the partners of ukraine now we, we, we don't see that much engagement of the partners. you mentioned the, the american problems but, but then the same time we see the increasing like wake up in europe. i think with regard to the russian invasion, because europe also understands that russia presents a theme and threats to good just that towards. so for its own, for it's a little force on unity. and we actually, we don't know what, what will happen, what will happen in the future, and what will happen in most cool, what will happen with the russian establishment. everything is possible and i do think that the at least the ukrainians when they deny the

russian efforts to just destroy ukrainian solar engine, ukrainian territorial integrity. that will be a huge blow for these impede them, this ideas of russia. because really, i mean, when we're talking about problems of the thinking of going from pensive, it's clear and your guest already also said that it's clear the dresser has huge problems as well with this huge army. and it was so much people on the ground. and frankly, speaking for the russian society, i just don't understand why it's not happening. what's here and he's killing as many russian citizens as you bring your citizens or even for. and that is true that that should be a huge moral problem for the russian society. what it does, i mean, if you'll forgive me, those are all the sounds as though a lot of what you're saying is hopeful, rather than necessarily pragmatic and realistic. let me put the question to patrick theory. do you see a line from this point towards russia's capitulation on the battlefield,

given the divisions among the nato allies, given the evident inability of president biden, to released the 60000000000 dollar a package this side of the lex? no, indeed, no guarantee. it'll happen often with either. i mean, it's a situation. the site is the site it's, it's very difficult to see that i, the path to victory for ukraine would be got it all cda, coming in immediately. and then the large rand mobilization uh, you know, a lot of western support this year go on the defensive and build and have another crack. 3 a larger, more, better plan, longer train crack against the russians in a certain sector next year. but what you're looking for from is an operational level breakthrough, which takes back to like me. so i show of that territory. and similar to maybe the, um, the 1st on. okay, but then since, but the problem is much more difficult to do that,

but that is probably realistically their best option. and that's something changes politically english, which looks like it's locked down. so it's something that they have, they might have f sixteens flying by next year for instance. but you know, that still gives us the best part of 12 months of this grinding a traditional warfare that everybody's go to withstand. yeah, sixteens on, you know, you need a whole system behind that in terms of how do you deploy them. i'm the logistics and all that. they're not at that are certainly be useful asset and we'll see how to do that. and, but there was some type good air plants as well. so you know, it's a wait, see, it will help. it will certainly give america run. that's probably why you're waiting for you to do it again, bigger, longer training, but we never called liberty yet. another quick sykes has been to the center. john? yeah. how about? uh, let me bring up that question that little do me a raised a moment ago. it's the question of appeasement. it's, it,

history is pretty instructive, let's say on what happens when you a piece and a dresser. the idea of negotiations, the idea of giving into food to does he want to go further? does he want more? does he want to expand his appetite for post soviet conquests? you know, well, there are different voices coming out of moscow and different. the thing is, uh, maybe it would be you there. many would like that to happen. but that i'll see that, but my very much realistically because the a 2 year conference with you. great. and there's no right now immediate end to that and side has a serious way. uh for the russian for i think capabilities are creased for any offense or faction. it will pay 2 years and years after this conflict then, and then the kinder meaningful way for russia to be as rate d for offensive fashion. then as it was,

an adult began in february 22. right now of course it's again march. that means it's spring time coming, and therefore a couple of months it's going to be no major offensive fashions are possible because there's going to be a see of there. then comes the fire of the summer fighting season, extended summer fighting season, where both sides will try to knock a serious blow on each other, make possibly break through oppressions with one to break through. and then the war, the premium was the one to break through and then the word that most likely may happen or may not and will be another summer. or it may be another summer of in the size of blood the stalemate. but the water is not then think of then most likely and that, but after the next few years will be again above the cell. my most likely because for some kind of negotiation on the basic basis of state,

this quote will become stronger. and then this conflict a pop up before i give the final word to the low to mid just just update us on the sense that the crime that has a pollutant has the sanctions of biking that he wants to be released from this by selection in global affairs, how much of that plays into the idea that negotiations. the official says that the things ok sanctions are not to work in. we are adapting, rushes, adapting, and the lots of things that are being done successfully. but there are serious and growing problems and also with defense production up to the to produce enough weapons. and that's where you weapons. so yes, uh, pause is me that i think that's we understood and some kind of and for the, for this fight thing should come. okay, hold on

a minute. i want to put this to you among the popes, comments where these speaking about conflict in general, including israel's war on guys that he said negotiations on never a surrender. it is the coverage not to carry a country to suicide, which begs the question to you. how far is too far in defending you credit under the circumstances, you know, but let me re address the question. so if we are talking about negotiations, how is that different with what happened in 2014, in 2015 when we had negotiations with both and, and when we had these agreements and then put, you violated these disagreements and accumulated his forces for suspend when father and let us, you know, come back to history. if you think about history, if you look at history, you know that every partition of ukraine leads to partition of poland,

for example. and, and the baltic states and russia's father entry into the, into the are being caught. you know, this a, this what happened and so it just to ensure this was happened in the 20th century. even more so the partition of ukraine and the partition of poland and the 20th century link to partition of germany for example. so, and the question is ok, russia is very weak and it will not go forward. well, let's look at the end of the 20th century. during the bolshevik time, russia was really renew very weak out of the missile. but the huge accumulated forces and just divided to europe into 2 parts of to the 2nd world war. so i think the, the, the real question should be whether we are able to stop fortune, who is a new 21st century fascism which is really changing the rules of the game around the world and making a new board there. so any stage we unprotected or we can't,

we don't stop him now and therefore the world and they just sent you will look very, very different compared to the previous because i'm going to thank all my guess. now the media and the length of a file going out and patrick, beauty, and thanks to you for watching, you can see the program again, any time by visiting our website, delta 0 dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you can also join the conversation on x. i'll handle this as a inside story for me, joe, and a hole in the whole team here. good bye for now, the, the early morning is feeding time at this fish farm in the straits of joel southern the nation. while my ridgemont works here, okay, after he stopped going out to sea to fish 2 years ago, when my phone was on the way back to show the winds changed suddenly,

in less than 5 minutes, that would launch waves and my photos. and i only thought of getting back safely. i lost half my catch, but i didn't care. changing with mountains mean that fuel months with safe for small scale fishermen to head out to sea. serena rahman is a conservation scientist, has been studying the impact of climate change on route communities. so everybody knows the temperature of the ocean side creasing. this also affects the movements of the species. so we have changed for species season now. latino didn't know where they used to be sufficient or coming in ice. so easy to touched when kilograms of trips before? no, it is difficult to even get 5 kilograms. national fishing has been the backbone of coastal communities in the nation for generations. but that's the way of life is coming on. different president biden says once a 2 state solution for palestinians and israelis, what does anybody believe it's doable? what this is real for? i'm gonna say it back to us foreign policy. and what are the long term consequences for the region and the world?

a quizzical look at us politics, the bottom line, unique perspectives that plays students up and goes, told the palestinians to go to on heard voices, to humor. i try to highlight the absurdities inconsistency, but upon proceed with the landscape. connect with our community and talking to conversations you will find elsewhere, it takes every day. this is going to unspeakable horror as to really a lot about what's happening because of the tasks and media attention. the stream on out to 0 is freedom of speech on the internet are right for something, but not for others. palestinian or airbag content has been removed or restricted when he was on. that has, is just the real world investigates whether social media platforms moderate content equally, especially in times of complex. there's a good understanding of the matter as the press. there are the standards between israel security services and other parties like my to close cyber space on adjust

the the more kyle, this is the news our live from. so coming up in the next 60 minutes a to 5 minutes, the aerial on re agrees to resign. off the weeks of pressure from games which control most of the capital. we look at the initiative in golf, so how things are bring smiles and a sense of normalcy for palestinian children in the face of boy. i wrote mcbride in don't yet squeezing you praying with the artillery units to know the russians are coming. i don't know where the next shows are coming from celebrations in india, m as.