front lines, ukraine is only able to fire around 2000 show a day. we detailed coverage. this is just the staging point from here. the journey continues to the place is a version inside of the sun from around the world. so for it is in the dominican republic, refer to places such as this one as that survive of market because it's meant to cover people's most basic mean will the united states then take talk, a bills costs that could make the chinese platform unavailable in the country the reason, given tick tock is a national security trust. what about freedom of speech and how will basing respond this is inside story. the color that on james pays the future of take talk is at risk in united states with

a possible bell passing its 1st stage with a land slide vote in the house of representatives. the popular video sharing app is used by millions of americans every day. and it's owned by chinese company, republicans and democrats say there's nothing stopping china from using the state to to alta algorithms and implements voters and, and election. yeah, critics say that's nonsense and a clear violation of freedom of speech if the bill is passed by the senate, president joe biden says he'll sign into law, but that vote could store, especially as legal challenges are likely to follow onto the bill. the company must set its assets, but to whom and under what conditions we'll explore all of these issues with all guests in a moment. but 1st this report by katya lopez already on the rules are suspended. the bill is passed without the bi partisan vote that could van took talk in the united states, democrats and republicans, so like say the popular video sharing app owned by a chinese company posters of threats to national security. first,

take tax that it's data is not accessible to china based bite dance employees, false china based employee's routinely access this data. even unbeknownst to employees of tick tock usa, tell congress to not be in tech talk more than a 170000000 americans use tech talk. supporters of the ban state data collected by the app could be used by time as government to manipulate algorithms that they fear . could ultimately slaveholders particularly ahead of the us election in november under the bill. the company would have about 6 months to divest. it's us assets or face a ban is saudi arabia buys it, is that fine? are we not concerned about the national security concerns in that situation? so i just, i just think it's, it's an important issue. it deserves to be addressed. but i think it should be addressed with more input and more thoughtful deliberation. president joe biden also says take top, could be a national security risk. if i pass it,

i'll find a. but in an election year supporting a van on tip top could heard bite in the pools, especially among young voters. to talk c. o is urging users to lobby their representatives in washington. we believe we can overcome this together. i encourage you to keep showing your storage, shed them if your friends share them with the family, share them with the senators, protect you constitutional rights. make your voices heard. business owners whose livelihoods depends on tick tock, say a ban, would put them out of business. critics, including china, say the bill reflects the double standard, especially when it comes to freedom of speech in the us. kinda appearing to hold on to it's the logic of a band in the us is handling of tick tock will let the world see more clearly whether the united states so called competition based rules actually beneficial to

the world. or if the only self serving the bill will now head to the senate for a vote, put analysts say, even if it passes, it will likely face a set of legal challenges. katia, look this up again. elgin 0 for insights story. we've got a fascinating range of respect to the small guess today in wilmington, north carolina, professor sarah crabs is found. the end director of the technology policy institute at cornell university and the whole of the book, social media and international relations in fort lauderdale. don't horn was acting executive deputy chief information officer for new york. quit band tick tock on, state issued phones used by executive agency employees and in london. chung chain, quang is a senior analyst with the internet. paul, them entry a launch on china. it's a global network. of legislatures focusing on china policy chunking is a self,

a hong kong, dissident living in exile. great to have you all on the program. well, we all know or at least know about tick tock. it's a nice downloaded app in the world. mostly. i think people know it full lips. let's say videos, silly videos, people don't sing to him. how important and how influential is this app? it's extremely influential. you know, if you, if you look at the history of it and, and, um how often people actually use the app and then goes into things like purchasing, just because it tells them to it shows you that it has great control or people's motivations. and what they choose to, to do in their own personal lives. so it's, it's usually an influential kind in terms of recent elections. so right here that's in indonesia take talk, played a big pause, and also in puck a song. while we saw him wrong. com, the former prime minister, who's in jail, his supporters, i believe use take talk a great deal. yeah,

i think politically candidates, leaders go to where the action is. and if this is where people are spending time, that's where they're going to go. just like president's or by and in the united states, he says he supports a band, and then his campaign turned to tick tock for to, to, to produce it's as so it's a very interesting kind of to side of the story here to, didn't sarah staying with you for a moment in terms of take talk and exactly who owns, take to all kind of what that out. that's by dogs. head headquartered in china. but then when i got to who owns bike dogs, it gets a little much here. it doesn't hit me, is her does. and i think that's part of the concern is that it's, it's murky. it's unclear. um, but i don't think that by dance with dispute that it is chinese based. and there are security laws in china that would require bite dance to turnover data if the

government asked. and i think that's at the root of the national security concerned, the type that the congress is trying to tackle here. okay, a junction, i would like to get your perspective on this and i'd like to start with your very interesting background because you are a campaign for freedom of speech. but you're also an activist who was in hong kong and who fled to europe. so where do you stand with this bill? do you agree that the, it's a good thing that congress but, but the house of representatives of pos, this and then the us might be taking action whatsoever you want it. and i do think it's a really good initiative to try to protect uses things so to not fall into the wrong hands, especially for people like me and many other home congress renounced. residing on the us and no said the address, it's about 10. so chinese, their students that is in the country because a lot of all data is being collected by yeah, been collected. but what i copy and paste on my clipboard. it has access to my

photo albums and access to my location data. my phones like space, a specific serial code numbers and so on. so it has a lot of information about the users and people around is uses. and as i said myself, simply speaking from personal point of view, are few very good. if i know that my data could possibly follow onto the wrong has not because i'm a use it, but because some people i know are uses and that they share more than necessary information with the app. and then a discharge such a bite down to them from there can be access, as i said, by the chinese government. and even though the jumps that it doesn't happen at the us, but maybe not through to talk, but there is transferred to by don. and that and to china, and there's also no transparency because the security loss in china would require a bike does a lie about as so i'm personally quite supportive of the bill because of like my background and also my passion, full of data protection and digital rights isn't that a contradiction here?

because one of the things you were protesting about in hong kong was the lack of free speech and lack of freedom of expression, which china was cracking down on some of those say the u. s. is now doing exactly the same but the bell itself does not necessarily say a lot less now completely eradicate your talk from the, the market in the us. but it's saying because of national security, the rest of the company will have to digest and, and like be so be sold from its parent company, buying guns to continue to operate in the us and the full if it doesn't, then it might be banned in the us, it's not the fact told by and then said to call has to get out of the us. it's not like that. and i can see the merit of this approach is not completely binding. and part of which is definitely prevalent take, i think technology should be neutral, but how do you deal with the data protection, the privacy, the mass surveillance,

the mass data collection, and the possible risk to the democratic process as we have seen in canada and even back in 2016, the us and the us a bit about the coverage of electric. huh. like how do we balance all of that? so i do see this bill being a quite as long as the approach and trying to protect all those values, but not completely asking to talk to completely like the to be defined in the us and still allow, take to, to operate. but just in very different settings, but i do see the concern of free speech for sure. sarah, do you agree with that? this is not a band. i mean, there are a 170000000, maybe americans. i think that was take talk. so i can figure out who use this app every single month. right. i think one of the ways that the current bill is trying to get around these constitutional concerns that were raised in 2023,

but also in 2020. when president trump tried to ban take talk is that it has moved away from the language of banning the platform. and instead, framing it as a choice that china will have to divest a by dance, will have to divest, take talk, or then if it chooses not to do that. then there will be a ban on, on, on the platform. but it also, you know, in this last year, i think what has made this bill much more inoculated to these legal challenges? is it the way it appears as though they have, where the, the co sponsors have worked very closely with constitutional lawyers to try to get around with the concerns that were raised legally the previous times that a band was initiated? so i think getting a board in the band in language, but also if you look at the language in the 2023 proposal versus now it was much

more about american users. and now this as being framed explicitly as a national security threat. and in that intervening time, there have appeared to be many close door sessions with members of congress in the intelligence community talking about what these concerns are. so that's a whole separate issue about the close door aspect of that. and what that means, democratically don't let me ask you about that. vote in the house of representatives because it was a land slide 352 to 4, and 65 again. so this was despite an expensive lobbying campaign, bye back bike dogs with told that thousands and thousands of calls and messages to a members of congress that seems to have back fod. let me just read these quite from richie torres is congressman democratic congressman from new york. the iron grip, the tip top has on the minds of young people as a profound public health has that they felt that this was organized by to talk this

campaign that they received. what was, what was it? oh oh, was it the genuine view of uses? so i just know like a couple things i want to respond to here. one, it's not just about the young people. my mom is on tick tock, non stop, rate and such as young users. it's also people who are more elderly, who are being corrupted by this, but just to go back to a couple of points one, you know, it, this is just another nature reaction by our politicians who just aren't capable of actually solving that. the true problem here, and the true problem is, is data privacy and all these other organizations facebook with met, uh, in all of those, all have similar data. you know, they've interfered in elections as well. we know that there's, that's already already been proven. so this, this legislation isn't going to really amount to anything, you know, yes,

it will get take talk purchased by another organization. but it's not going to fix the, the true root cause of the problem, which is, lack of lack of governance, lack of data, privacy in our country. that's where the focus of our politicians should be. that's where it should have been 3 years ago when i band in new york, and this, this type of new drug reaction we've seen with, with other things. it's just, it's going to end up in court for a while, eventually tick tock, who gets so there'll be some other chinese company that upset doing something similar and will, will be in the cycle. the cycle again, just to be clear, you didn't buy that in new york to bind it in new york state on, on, on, on official business fire. right. you do that. yeah. because you can still access to be clear, you can still access to talk and use take talk, cuz i'm sure thousands of people do in new york to obtain your reaction, right to the house of representatives vote, and the fact that it was bipartisan and such a large boat, but at the same time, the opponents were also bipartisan on both sides. that seems to be people from who

an unlikely bed fellows who are joining together a hi, i'm actually surprised by the lens ice activity that bill has stopped and i was like, excited about his and like the thing that i've seen is take over his trying to make out like, as of it is a casualty between the competition between the us and china, which seems to me like some kind of gas lighting, like pre out strategies. and they can expect us to forget the fact that take towards being used as a tool to monitor a journalist on financial times on boss feet and so on. and they con, expect me to forget to about the manipulation of content on egos and so on. and l g b, g to, you know, the general boss a console. but at the same time i, i want to like reiterate something on the point about like facebook, google, they all collect massive amounts because that's true. and they are not responsible

uses. that's true too. but at the same time, like there is some sort of transparency, they can issue transparency reports saying that this is how many requests we got from the us government and the hong kong government, wherever that is, and requesting a request. but in china and the requirements, not even possible that they, they have to decide to lie about that if they're asked to by the beijing government and biotech toggle biked on the same time like google and facebook. or at least google had take some governments and to call to tell them some of the decisions that make, but this is not possible on china as well. and those are like they like facial then google, how big they are. they're not tied to call them and while the jobs is highly time to do chinese communist policy. so from an activist point of view, i'd say i wouldn't be, we'll worry about my data fully into the hands of by tons compared to pulling into google facebook. because honestly, i am addicted to social media myself, but still like that the fear is quite different between the 2. and i think from my

perspective is that hong kong active is the living it next. so the, you know, the roads gives me some sort of hope that, oh, maybe we are moving towards the wrong direction to solve this problem. but the problem is a pharmacy problem still exists. like, why do these companies have so much about me that it's not necessary required by the law? a sarah, the arguments we've been discussing, of course, about data and algorithms and, and how a bike dogs could be perhaps persuaded to help china. but there are other arguments, perhaps we dropped part of the bill, but there are people saying it's immoral take talks, poisoning all kids, let me read you the quote from the form of vice president mike pins. he says it's essentially digital fentanyl, a 21st century technological back from the app is so potent and addictive how. how are these, how strongly these multi pa documents? well, i think the moral arguments are why you get these strange bedfellows is that you have kind of coalitions on the right and the left kind of the moral the,

the right just right. and then kind of the human rights left that support this kind of legislation. and what's interesting, in terms of opposition, you did of a lot more democrats in the house that oppose this. i think it was 50 democrats, oppose it, compared to 15 republicans of those individuals. and what you see, foreshadowed in the senate is it's kind of a libertarian via ran paul in the senate. i saw that a o. c. congressman from new york had opposed it in the vote yesterday, and she said that this was brought together, there was and 4 days there was very little discussion was all behind closed door. and i think that's where again, you get the these interesting cuz that's what politics is, is finding a coalition that will support a measure, and that's why you don't get comprehensive data privacy legislation which so many different people have been pushing for for years. you don't get that cuz there's

agreement that there's a problem, but no agreement on what to do. once you add this china threat, you really can generate, as we saw on wells that you can generate a strong coalition of supporters because of the politics on china. a deal on that. yeah. as, as, as he just had service. a, oh, see alexandra kazi, a cortez joining forces with the queen of maga. make america great. marjorie taylor green. really unlikely alliances. what's your view on the way this bill was put forward and the speed it was put through with the last stage through the through the congressional process. because that seems to a lot of alarmed many as you just heard, service say yeah. and it should, it should alarm everyone why, why are they pushing this through through so quickly right now, is there some other motives that's behind their actions and, and why they're trying to push this behind closed doors and they, they pushed buying close doors to successfully get it get it past it,

definitely it definitely concerns me. and again they're, they're attacking this as a china on the phone to entity, but they're not fixing that the true problems. and i think that's, again that's, that's going to be my, my biggest concern. there's ways to, to allow tick, tock to exist, which doesn't include a full band. right. 3rd, the data can be stored in the united states. they can have the request that the tick tock use not immunization of the data processing. so that the data isn't tied specifically to people there's, there's lots of options that could take place, but that they're not putting out there and, and all of that makes me extremely concerned. if i can ask you children, king about the reaction both take talks, reaction to the dates of said, this is a band and nothing more or less. i'm a chinese reaction of this will seriously damage investors. multiple countries including china, her confidence to invest in the us and china, resolutely opposes it. that's the part of the statement from beijing. what,

what is your reaction to that given? but if you go to china and you try and access large parts of the internet, you can get it on this. definitely this kind of is an invalid. and so unfair treatment, when it comes to online service providers like google has had to these them oxygen trying to link and was supposed to leave facebook with never and, and so on. and at the same time, if you look at the positive information law and china, they basically require any data that the chinese company generates has to be stored locally. so if this, the concept that they call data is offered to you at the same time in 2016, they have already made the decision that big data is considered is basic strategic resources that this key for its great rejuvenation. and so you can cut said, which is that his personal legacy on this, this is the legacy which they are trying to achieve. and for them like having hong

is massed asia around the world. and it's actually a key thing to them to try to, to, to make the country gray. so the, there are strategic reactions towards foreign policy that's being announced by other countries. so i'd say i would have expected these kind of response coming from tech talk and the chinese government because they don't only see tech talk as a bike don's as best as they see. all kinds of businesses, not only by guns, but it will apply to older businesses as some kind of strategic material that the parts you can use for making use of when, whenever they find necessary. so we, we called use the same kind of free marketing logic to try to understand businesses that comes from china. and at the same time, that kind of unfair treatment, that data can only go into china, but rarely data can go out of china a given the colonel and the very restrictive approach that china has been very

protective towards this stage and not for privacy reasons. only for strategic and international like politics, political reasons, and this is quite concerning to see the world in the city duration. and even though with devices like your opinion, with like more advanced data protection law like this problem still exists like data can just try and search into china, but nothing comes out of it. so it's actually very wary and you see, and i don't find the investment argument very attractive coming from china. okay, let me bring it back to the us because it's an election. yeah. the young people are going to be a key demographic as we've already heard. bite and says he'll sign this bill yet he has a tick tock account for his election campaign. and with regard to time, donald trump on take talk, he's been a flip flop. this is what he said in 202012 unit 6. so we may be banning 6 jobs, we may be doing some other things or a couple of options, but a lot of things are happening. so we'll see what happens. but we are looking at

a lot of alternatives with respect to tech stuff. now compare that with an interview he gave to a us cable channel cnbc earlier this week. frankly, there are a lot of people on tick tock that love it. there are a lot of young kids on tech guy who, who will go crazy without it. there are a lot of users, it is getting a lot of good and there's a lot of bandwidth tech tax. but the thing i don't like is that without tech to us, you can make facebook bigger and consider facebook to be an enemy of the people. sarah, is this going to become an election issue? do you think now or do you think by one to nothing to happen before november a well i, it seems to be a. # an evolving story, i saw just this morning that trump's former treasury secretaries steve mentioned is putting together a bin to buy tick tock. and that would be really interesting. i don't know if that

would go forward. i also think that trump's language on his shifted a little bit, which is then he said, well, it's actually a really complicated story and i think, you know, he's someone who's all who, who's both impulsive and been victim. and so that could explain that initial response. the other day, but, but it also then i think complicated matters because of that while you were for it 4 years ago now you're against it. you know, one of the interesting aspects of the language been that one is really talked about . i haven't seen discuss very much is that a gives the president a lot of authority to, to determine which entities which platforms are a for an adversary owns. and so someone might present in terms of love, this kind of thing. because if it would give the president a lot of authority to make those determination. but i also think that's what i'm, what makes this the language and the current bill quite dangerous because it, it, you know, it hands a lot of power over a,

to the president to make these determinations. and there might be a consensus that in this case, take talk, there's agreement, but that's a hostile for an adversary own platform. but what happens now? there's a sunset on this legislation. what happens down the road? we're in peace time and it's so it's very interesting that this kind of almost war time encroachment on civil liberties is happening during peacetime and opening the door to possible greater infringement dawn. well, how do you see the future for take talk? do you think we're going to have some sort of fire sale off to this bill as it becomes low, or do you think it's going to be very, very like see cool tax. yeah, i say i think we're going to see a, a prolonged court case. i don't think we're going to see anything really developed before before the election. i don't think there'll be any decisions, but i think the right now, you know, if you're going to get rid of tech talk, everyone wants to buy it. so it's, you know, the market, the market top port,

so by dance wants to offload it. definitely now's the time to do it. we know that, well, we know they don't want to offload it, but you know, it's, it's eventually going to happen. so, you know, that was the best time when that comes from, then getting the best price for it. okay, well thank you to all guess for joining us today. sarah crabs don't harm until june kwan you can always find these channels picked, talk at out as their english. and if you missed any of this program, you can always watch it again. any time on the website out your 0 dot com. and if you have further thoughts on this issue and on some tick tock, go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. we also want to hear from you on x, the former twitter at a inside story for me, james space and the team here in dough. please stay safe. i'll be back very soon. bye. for now, the

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