final words, free power stuff made them feel since then for that he will soon be forgotten from the home to the story. at least 9000 palestinian families are missing at least one loved ones at the table. how will russia retaliate to the mass shooting in moscow and affiliates of these land make? stay to the rock and the band is claimed responsibility the group has targeted russia before. what are the implications of this latest attack? this is inside stored the hello again. only james bays is the worst attack on the russian capital. in more than a decade. gunman opened fire and a crowd comes to the new coming at least a $150.00 people. an ice link group has claimed responsibility,

but why is it targeting russia? and how did such a major breach of security happened? we'll go to our panel in just a moment. but 1st, since i'm on a, i'm the, has this report. the attack on one of the most goes most popular concert halls, the kind of give the aisle this gunman opened fire with the crowd. those who got out say they were lucky to escape the exceed the shooting. there were many dead and wounded flat spots and then now all i heard was gunshots. that's it. an eyesore affiliated claimed responsibility. in recent years, the group is carried out attacks enough cost out of pocket stop and killed nearly a $100.00 people in iran in january. 2 years ago, a suicide bomber targeted the russian embassy in kabul. and the group is also behind the attack on cobble airport in 2021, which killed a 175 people, and 13 us troops. the us says it weren't russia and attack was imminent in the days

leading up to the shooting president vladimir putin as promised revenge. what was the move in? we will identify and punish every one who was behind the terrorist attack. who prepared this strike against russia and its people. he also suggested ukraine was involved an accusation it dismissed, killed that there's just probably so it's obvious, the tutoring is just trying to find someone else to blame instead of dealing with his russian citizens and addressing them. person was silent for the whole day, thinking about how to link it to ukraine. only a few days before bruton had been celebrating his victory in the presidential election. now he's facing the pool upfront, major security failure and questions about how he's going to insure it doesn't happen again. benjamin al jazeera for inside story, the well now let's discuss all of this with all gas. joining us from the hole in pumpkin stone, ahmed rashid,

a veteran journalist who specializes enough kind of stone and pockets. don, is the author of the best selling books on the telephone on central asia in rome. i wouldn't matthews the old, a open reach the inside story of putin's war against ukrainian or russian specialist. and in geneva, jerome dreadful, a senior analyst in jihad and bolton conflict to the international crisis group. jerome specializes in on the state, the groups. thank you very much, all 3 of you for joining us. so let's start with who we think carried out this attack. if i start with you um at the bronx, you buy, so look mainly we know for what he does enough. got us to and say they did it and they backed that claim later by releasing a video with the body come footage from one of the attackers which matches all the pictures that were taken from those that were in the whole. do you see this is conclusive? i, i would definitely go with the claim that the teachers, i see is quite a son, because this is a strategy that me and for me,

for quite some years now. and that is to kill as many russians and chinese and out of the big for the american across the big uh the states. and the mind that once we, once we do know is that i says k has targeted um, uh, russians in cobbles and uh can you, um, um, in other places, this is all part of a strategy i'm hating, must go. russia bought a few because of the beach, but was the central ations inherited from the bolsheviks. and before that, from even the desire is times what times you can style was very neglected by the stage. nobody was prepared to invest in a dual develop as in any way. and as a result, the there was increasing resentment, especially among the projects and boards that someone can bowman's suicide bombers

may have been projects. so i'm sure the russians would be looking into that. well, let's see what the russians are saying right now. oh, and because it took 19 hours before president putin made a televised address, each spoke for 5 minutes and he didn't say who we thought i'd done it. but he did say this based on preliminary information, a window for crossing the board was prepared for them by the ukranian side. he's making a link to the up to the war in ukraine. also, the, of course is in russia, say the attack is flight in a white run, no call, and it was stopped about 340 kilometers from moscow in the direction of ukraine. what do you make of this claim that they were trying to flee across the board into crime because that's a very well fortified board and they'd have to get across the dice and then i'm active from lined. yeah, it's completely crazy and i'm we should know that actually the brown square, the car was stopped in the and the suspect. so i pretended well he's also in the

way to belarus, which is actually a much better place to flee if you will. fleeing. um, i think it's quite possible they didn't expect to escape um the, the, the slowness and the and effectiveness of the must it police and the rest of the national guard. the response came as a surprise to the, to the hostage takers themselves. they didn't prepare a 2nd gets away call. they made no attempt to change. that gets away costs, but the, so it's possible they didn't actually planned very well where they were going to go afterwards. but the real significance actually of all of the whole unit ukraine hint is i think we can safely assume that there is a team of f. s b people in most getting around. so faking evidence, trying to put together some kind of body of evidence dependents on the crate. and i think we're going to be hearing from them pretty soon unfortunately. so it seems you don't think it was linked to your train. um, it doesn't think it was linked to you trying to roam. if it is this group that

calls itself is lot makes state in court a song. can you tell us who they are and explain that link, that that would it's a historical reference chorus on basically real speaking about the group that's a match there on the southern 15 that was created by this company a tiny bit. becky: some come on, does some also come out that's from that that the about professor so so what i think by the way to using critical mom was back touching sense. so him, well if he did to do with he's the next day 20th index to begin the photo performed in cm yearbook, and so soon then the group, i've been initially fighting against american troops in afghanistan, but of so again, that, that'd be about. and since that, that event that cause the medicaid clinics tape hold us on. so what i found without the reach of any sending back is done, but these bigion. so the root has tried to, i've tried 2 types of attacks. first, it tries to describe the lives of teddy bands and to tell you about the government

. if you did not get these done by targeting with just minorities by targeting that event, come on those and so on to prove to the time you've been cannot insure security. we cannot get this done. so that's for one and seconds. a group as being not team vote outside us when so that stage that tax in the back is down in turkey. they have the money, but at times as well in western europe, even though it's those but los k, that tax. and so the kind of rush i have very much fits with them, a disability that has become come on for the past 2 years, including rely on some i think, mainly reduced leg fedex. wow. well, i mean, they take a few that truck outside, but also the type of target targeting cdns, so that they would try to increase the magenta came back of the actions. so i'm a just, if you could add to that this particular group, which as jerome has just said, has seen a lot of his activity recently, and i've got a strong, how is it linked to the wider pots of ice?

so for example, in the middle east, i mean, is the coordination of joint come on structure or do they just share the same ideology? you know, i think that there is a lot of cooperation because you see nice little active in all these countries around. they've gotten, it's done uh phone and they have been, you know, devastating a successful in some of the suicide attacks and taking place in pakistan and iran and other places. um, so i mean, i think the, you know what it be a face to do you remember that they, they also do not believe in the color, but i don't think they believe in a much more extreme islamic ideology. and then we have really seen in the region before. and then the danger now is that, uh uh, there will be a general track down by the russians, by the central asian regimes against the. but it's not many minutes and see how successful that will be. give them the failure of his massive failure that took

place in moscow the other day. um, oh, i don't think the russians are really popular. asian is really going to believe in what they're being told about for the future. and then not in russia, except to the purpose of idea. yes. all of a, as well as med, makes us the pub point. um, even the, the house depends on how gullible do we think the russians. i mean, clearly uh, 25 years of pigeons rule has brainwashed the people into a significant degree. but i'm, this is really a big ask to actually, i'm the mom, the people see this as a part of the ukraine war rather than a catastrophic failure of this teaching secuity state. and it's a major political problem for bruton, because security is putin's brand. he came to power in the wake

of, of terrorist attacks and most scaling around russia. his contract with his people has always been that he keeps them safe and a hostile wells. and we see that there's a catastrophic basic failure of that security strength of putting this built to fulfill its basic function. very good beating up baba's cars with bunches of combinations and not very good at the other side, terrorizing hipsters demonstrations but clearly, but not doing. the main thing that's supposed to do, which is to keep people safe from this kind of a pulling terrorist attack. so right me, if i can go back to the group itself, just be clear for us. what are they trying to achieve? i'm what is your estimation of how strongly they are and exactly where they all based the basically what's happening is that she even compared to, to the groups as well as much them before. they don't believe in an seems to be states. so for them, everybody's basic shannon and other states are enemies moving to tape time the need,

but even for the defend me cause you had people thought so, and that means because i don't put them looking for them. so in that sense, to try to describe relies that vision on diamonds, but there is something quite product because with the highest case of pulling the agenda. so the type about tax that belongs to not any around the 13 that would most cool. it's a share that you'd be outcome of that we connection up any stuff in the sense that death to that, to me and i've got a stem, but the time you've been for the best job as allows you to come down on the dispensing that says are a single shooting, some of that he does and so on. and so for the loop, because of the huge pressure that the facing and up can you stand by the time you've done things in the sense that trying to project violent and as well as amount of damage to domestic violence, big enough against them. so it to be products because, but then that violence either so about the outcome of the failure to achieve

something. and i've got an excellent let me get your take on that and how, how is the group's fortunes changed since august 2021. because before that they would talk to the by the us that were us raids, arrests and asked strikes. and of course now the ad, the 3 is the tell about how is that and you of you change the fortunes and the strikes or well, i mean, they become a much stronger because the departure of the americans, the departure of the international community. and the thought about being generally a week full so that they have maintained security to some extent, that they can't do the kind of intelligence work required to deal with extremism. and so what i mean, we have a very, very difficult situation for them. i mean, the world can say, the pariah. so does this attack mean that russia is going to recognize it's all about for what clothes came in to talk about to identify prices came in engines. that may well be the outcome in the post of the child. so protest from,

i've done women and others who have been deprived of the job to the live nearby the wrong. but they're doing this funding as really pages and, and all there's a problem to have a question for for the taliban. and also for those countries who are refusing to recognize the thought of ahmed jerome jerome made the point that the lashing out beyond kind of storm because they're under pressure. and that's kind of fun. if you look at that reason, the tax that was back in 2022 attempt on the life of the acting on bastrop pocket stone in kabul, a suicide bomber attacking the russian embassy. russia again to the target and also in 2022 attacking a hotel popular with chinese national since then the attacks in pockets dom in 2023, and in january this year, iran, do you agree with jerome that they all they are expanding? yes, absolutely. yeah. this is, i mean, this is the basic tactic. they have it as long as i bundle them out using that very

extensively around the whole region. and this is a way of expansion by itself necessarily a political way, but it's a, a way to use the softball moves and the fact that they can sooner retreat suicide bombers. presumably from all these neighboring countries, says a lot of bad abilities for the time be. now how, you know, we haven't seen an attack by them in the west. but if the, if an attack does come in the way, what does the americans going to do? are they going to launch a massive offensive like they did up to $911.00? 0 oh, what, what are their options? he did, i think i used problems as a now coming up in the fall from being the to be faced by nature to us. and they have to be thinking ahead of what these groups are capable of thinking ahead what can be done to control these groups. jerome, they haven't,

it seems completely finished enough. got us to um, because the day before the attack in moscow there was an attack again, we believe carried out by this group of suicide bombing on a bank in kandahar. and of course, kind of ha, is not the capital of afghanistan, but it is where the tyler bonds supreme leader between the arkansas the lips. i guess the size of the that's what the objects to when you look at the attacks and that kind of stuff. usually that tried to i that i the just minorities so that place the ships multi civilians because those are somehow easier to accept, right? because the, because out many of those play see that going to be talking to that. so it's difficult to insure security every way or that time. so they kind of need pocket, i live or any benefit your spikes on which could be part of the objectives to really just i'd like to talk to you about the government. but the country yet shape that. so instead bout fussing that way into those. no, no live in targeting in the, in public basis, because a lot, i mean,

simply easier to achieve. oh, and let me ask you, why, what's a target russia do you think? i mean, i assume you're going to refer all the way back to the so be aware enough kind of stone. chechnya and russia's role in syria. yes. well, you've onto your investment, james. that's exactly why it's uh, also relatively easy target must go is full of central asians. they have as the guest of bikers, who do all of the, the does he work most of the borders between? that's free movement within the customs union. i'm so touch eric's was backs and kick as a worker from central asia can freely come to him, but to him from moscow. and it's just the targets of, of, of convenience as much as ideology. simply because it's easier to hit must go than it is to hit the west. the western europe is harder to get into needs. capt visa

seems to travel, whereas you can literally drive from central asia to the credit because the city whole, the, it's the right by the ring road. it's just a ton off of the main major way on your in purpose city. hold on. i don't notice you were trying to get in there. yes, i mean i, uh i, i really feel that the, the driving factor in this is that a chain of the russians by many of these i think by the warranties who are fighting either for as um or they're fighting for an independent state. they're both extreme nationalist and extreme is fabulous. and so, so i'm, this is an area that really has not been explored. i spent 2 years trying to track down some of these who's back in direct medicines in, in the, in doug has done. and they're very well organized and, and i'm very,

very much in control of the areas that they occupied and, and, but it's very difficult to reach them and the local government. so just, you know, not capable of, you can imagine what the local governments are doing. if we can con, con, put together the falls to tackle them, the local governments are facing even bigger problem. let's examine this test seek is tom link because my understanding is the 11 people according to the russian and terry ministry who are being held. all they say is that will for nationals, but there's also being state tv, footage of interrogations, of at least 2 suspect. one is clearly speaking, tasha which is a version of persian very close to dory. jerome tell me about tennessee cust on why this might be important and why that that country might be a recruiting ground for this group. i got 2 reasons. the 1st and the 1st one is that i would have gotten stuck in the beginning of the time. i guess that's not she

tried to rely on i think minorities that tried to bulk side that, that lead them as a pass to him on the groups. so the site down a few properties anytime you write that must have moved terminated by the best ones . and so they also try to improve among minorities. so that's a tiny bound interaction. come down on these minorities so that the defense i'll see if i yes. as a means to protect those, you know what? so that's one of the reasons that i will try to buy a house that didn't use them. and it's the only reason it goes to about that to stay in conflict. many indeed yours from somewhere in asia, but also from russia, investigate chestnut, and so when to steer you have to fight in the ranks of this. many of them got the kids, but some of them after i have slow seats, 30 to the back of a 19 left, sir. yeah, they went to russia. some of them went to ukraine. some of them just didn't pay this past about the region. and so i guess k, i tried to rely on those individuals. so the best think on tri printers,

we didn't buy if k, that's who lives on this. think minorities would trust one another better would speak the same language. was in a way connected to one another, so you know, way past due dates them are belie eviction and 5th street. they've broken the addition of that tax abroad. so it's not, it's a 70 on the about that just give them a bit of thought about that subject taskbar and what is happening to them. i'd like your take on tests you can still on you spend a bit of time, the very important impoverished country and it's had the same liter foot 3 decades . this is a headache for the test sheet. govern government. is it not a cup safety? i don't see how they're going to cope with the, especially if tomorrow must go names, a bunch of projects. i'm responsible for this brought me 3. we. i agree, competing with the default, the peters speak of what you said, that the real danger is the the, the problem, the lucky book to do now. and the fact that this probably needs to be neglected for

so long. and we are faced with multiple crises now in this part of the world in which there is very little understanding of the forces that are active, who is doing watch and to western intelligence is no longer have to pile what it was before, wouldn't be both things mean of god himself. so i need the need now to highlight with reasonable countries and reason governments and based off sto, intelligence, and outcomes come from to deal with the present pricing. that's the, the agenda for now. a huge problem then full time so you can still on but perhaps an even bigger problem. oh, info for the kremlin right now. because you know, this was a very large concept venue one, the glitzy a spend use in russia. this is a very well known band. i'm told picnic walton 6000 people were the sold out show.

where was the security? uh yeah. um, can i just got back on the estimate frustrates point because actually um there is a, um uh there's the assumption that puts in is a rational act that he will address. and his security services, military forces will address the actual problem which has attacked them. in other words, a research and central asian is, i'm, is movement based and touch it gets done. that will be what a sensible, rational government would do. unfortunately, the tragedy, the danger in the situation is that actually pretend doesn't really have the bandwidth as either politically or militarily to do anything about it. what he's it, he's deeply engaged in you credit, and that's his bull. he claims that it's of and it's not sees in care of that of the major. it's essential threats to russia, in no way does the, as long as the threat track with his political messaging and he's spending 40

percent of his, of a state budget on fighting that will. it may be that he actually wishes to escalate that will, i suspect, but he doesn't want to escalate the will, but he will be forced to do something by this terrorist attack. it's a challenge to his most dougherty, as i said in my early comments, and he'll have to do something. but what can he do in central asia? he's, he's my, he's not going to send, you know, massive forces to assist the touch of government to root out the, uh, its uh, insides in its entire trio. i've gotten, i mean, he conceivably could do that, but that would be a mess of distraction and he'd be fighting, effectively warranty front. but the, the, the tragedy on the power of the situation is that to, to, and kind of how it has to be about you crate. and because that's why pretend is committed, the reaction i think is not going to be in central asia. the major reaction is

going to be in ukraine, paradoxical so that might seem, i'm credited but nothing to do with it. but it's the only place that puts and really has the capacity to react. how do you think um, if they are looking at this well beyond the region, we're talking about perhaps in china, perhaps in western capitals, our intelligence services and leaders looking at this and how worried should they be? i think i think they should be very like because they really are presenting information about this region and what is going on in this region and the false is that uh, what was your driving militancy? um i, i just like to make the point that, you know, the, the, the, the russians are how disliked intensely in central asia paint except by the, the various they need. so i'll keep, i think, the wrong governments. and the question, for example, you know, uh, is nato or any other active part. they're going to get help from

the local political buildings or not. and i feel very much a good home time. you're probably of question who's going to crop up now, which frankly, we don't have the tools to really properly overlap. jerome is that history is repeating itself. i know it was only 2021 when the us laughed, but as this vital region being ignored. yes. again, is being built mostly seem as uh, from a 2nd to younger, one to 2 months. he was speaking about the political issue before speaking about the interactions between the rest of the country, the tiny, but it's gonna be on the seems. so with the on the security that the so body teacher, what do you think the physical comforting that anytime you effectively the government . so what are with them, with, with a strategy to address these come into potentially to engage it despite soon or the ups taken to send and difficulties. i don't need to build up on one of your find to

tell you about the width of the intelligence. when we speak to us and so sees working in security that increasing you wherever you're about about these book. so i'm confused. thank gemini, find out that's 90 percent of the products. think including all you can to get all the things directly to i guess k. so it's, it's a really rich at the same time and so some very deep funds from what to be. so in 2015 sense 16 when i asked him if he had any right quick recruit west any, what's your been use? send them to celia train and then send them back to we go up to fight. in that case, the reliance on sneak networks, including the jeep suspects and storm, means that they are not able to get to organize and very complex of activities. but the kids are to ease bessie that the as the main strength at that moment. so thank you very much. thanks you too. all i guess today ahmed rashid. oh and matthews and

jerome. dr. role. and for more on this story with plenty of context and analysis to go to the out, is there a website it out? is there a dot com? i'm sure you have your views to do on today's discussion. go to a facebook page. that's facebook dot com. forward slash a inside story. we're also on the old twitter now called x y. you'll find us at a j inside story for me, james phase, and the whole team here in doha. stay safe, bye for now. the now, scientists, the primates remain crucial for biomedical research, the but some of being given new lives beyond the bodies on the outskirts of virus is nothing is essentially for all kinds of fine to move, including those ones used in scientific research. the century houses 22 retired lab monkeys from across europe. this female recess mcgarr cause

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[000:00:00;00] the, as in use our on the clock, live it from coming up. the next 60 minutes, falls close and send it goes tightly contested and much delayed presidential election month by months of political unrest. nicholas hawkinson, it goes capital, the car where polling stations are about to close after day. a voting