place to the from honda san jose to cities became connected to the interior in an award winning film which is 0. well, here's historians and i'd witness accounts that portray early 20th century by this time as a thriving fibers reach. it was open investments were excess, moving from one city to another, kind of styling 1920 on al jazeera. how we rushed to retaliate to the mass shooting in moscow and affiliates of these land make stay to the rock and the band is claimed responsibility. the group has targeted russia before one of the implications of this latest attack. this is inside stored the hello again on james bays is the worst attack on the russian capital. in more than

a decade. gunman opened fire and a crowd of concert. then you can at least a 150 people. an ice link group has claimed responsibility, but why is it targeting russia? and how did such a major breach of security happened? we'll go to our panel in just a moment. but 1st, since i'm on a home that has this report, the attack on one of the most goes most popular concert halls, the kind of give the aisle this gunman opened fire with the crowd. of those who got out say they were lucky to escape the scene, the shooting there were many dead and wounded. a flat spots and then now all i heard was gunshots, that's it. an ice will affiliated claims responsibility in recent years, the group is carried out. attacks and that kind of stuff out of pocket, stop and killed nearly a 100 people in around in january 2 years ago,

a suicide bomber targeted the russian embassy in kabul. and the group is also behind the attack on cobble airport in 2021, which killed a 175 people, and 13 us troops. the us says it weren't russia and attacked with evidence in the days leading up to the shooting president vladimir putin as promised revenge. what was the move in? we will identify and punish every one who was behind the terrorist attack. who prepared this strike against russia and its people. he also suggested ukraine was involved an accusation it dismissed, killed that this is probably so it's obvious. the kitchen is just trying to find someone else to blame instead of dealing with his russian citizens and addressing them placing was silent for the whole day, thinking about how to link it to ukraine. only a few days before proving had been celebrating his victory in the presidential election. now he's facing the pool upfront, major security failure, and questions about how he's going to insure it doesn't happen again. vince mullin, l g 0 for inside story the well now let's

discuss all of this with all gas. joining us from the hole in pockets, don ahmed rashid, a veteran journalist who specializes enough kind of stone and pockets. don is the author of the best selling books on the telephone on central asia in rome. i would matthews the old, a open reach the inside story of putin's war against ukrainian or russian specialist. and in geneva, jerome dreadful, a senior analyst in jihad and bolton conflict to the international crisis group. jerome specializes in known the state of the groups. thank you very much, all 3 of you for joining us. so let's start with who we think carried out this attack. if i start with you um at the bronx job, i sold it mainly. we know for what he does enough contest on say they did it. and they backed that claim later by releasing a video with 40 cam footage from one of the attackers which mat, she's all the pictures that were taken from those that were in the whole. do you

see this is conclusive? i, i would definitely go with the claim that the teachers, i see is quite a son because this is a strategy. and i mean for me, for quite some years now. and that is to kill as many russians and chinese and other a big for the american across the big uh, in the states. i'm undermine that. and what we, what we do know is that the ice is k as targeted. um, uh, russians in cobble and uh, in new um, um, in other places, this is all part of a strategy of hating most go, drive russia, box you because of beach, but was the central ations inherited from the bolsheviks. and before that, from even the desire is times what times you can style was very neglected by the stage. and nobody was prepared to invest in edge all the repairs in any way. and as

a result, the there was increasing and resentment, especially among the projects or the parts that someone with the can bombings, the suicide bombings may have been projects. so i'm sure the russians will be looking into that. well, let's see what the russians are saying right now. oh, and because it took 19 hours before president putin made a ton of eyes to dress each spike for 5 minutes. and he didn't say who we thought i'd done it. but he did say this based on preliminary information, a window for crossing the board was prepared for them by the indian side. he's making a link to the up to the war in ukraine. also the authorities in russia say the attack is flight in a white run, a car, and it was stopped about 340 kilometers from moscow in the direction of ukraine. what do you make of this claim that they were trying to flee across the board? into crime because that's a very well fortified board and they'd have to get across the dice and then

inactive from line. yeah, it's completely crazy. i'm. we should know that actually the brown square, the car was stopped in the under the suspects when i pretended well, there's also a way to belarus which is actually a much better place to flee if you afflicting. um, i think it's quite possible they didn't expect to escape on the, the, the slowness and effectiveness of the must, the police and rest of the national guard. the response came as a surprise to the, to the hostage takers themselves. they didn't prepare a 2nd gets away call. they made no attempt to change the gets away costs, but the, so it's possible they didn't actually planned very well where they were going to go off the woods. but the real significance actually of all of the whole ukraine hint is i think we can safely assume that there is a team of f as be people in most going around. so taking evidence, trying to put together some kind of body of evidence dependents on the crate. and i

think we're going to be hearing from them pretty soon unfortunately. so it seems you don't think it was linked to your train. um, it doesn't think it was linked to your trying to room. um if it is this group that calls itself is lot make state in court a song. can you tell us who they are and explain that link, that that would it's a historical reference course on basically real speaking about the group that's a match that are on the southern 15 that was created by these companies. uh, have you been focused on come on, does some most of them others from the time you been productive so. so what i think by the way to using critical was back touching sense. so what we need to do with these, the next day 20 findings to begin to put a fully in cm, iraq. and so as to then the group, i've been initially fighting against american troops in afghanistan, but of so again, the time you about and since that, that event that cause the medicaid clinics tape hold. i phone. so what i found referred to the reach of, of getting it done and back is done,

but the speech and so the root has tried to get trained to types of effects. so it tries to describe the lives of teddy bam. and to tell you about the government, you did not get these done by targeting, we're just minorities by targeting that event to come on, those and so on to prove to the time you've been cannot insure security region up any time. so that's the one and stick on the group as being lot team, both outside the us when. so that stage that tax in the back is down in turkey, they have the multiple attempts as well in, within the euro. even those, those by los k that tax. and so if you have that kind of rush, i have very much fits with them with disability that has become come on for the past 2 years, including rely on some i think minorities like touching, wow, well, i mean, they take a few that truck outside, but the sort of type of the target targeting cd and so that they would try to increase the magenta came back of the actions. so i'm a just,

if you could add to that this particular group, which as jerome has just said, has seen a lot of his activity recently, and i've got a strong, how is it linked to the white a pots of ice? so for example, in, in the middle east, i mean, is the coordination of joint come on structure or do they just share the same ideology? you know, i think that there is a lot of cooperation because you see nice little active in all these countries around. they've got it's done phone, but they have been, you know, devastating a successful in some of the suicide attacks and taking place in buck is done in the wrong and other places. um, so i mean, i think, you know, what would be a face to do you remember that they, they also do not believe in the color, but i don't they believe in a much more extreme islamic ideology. and then we have really seen in the region before. and then the danger now is that, uh uh, there will be a general track down by the russians,

by the central asian regimes against the. but it's not many minutes and see how successful that will be. and give them the failure of his massive failure that took place in moscow the other day. which i don't think the russians are really popular, asian is really going to believe in what they're being told about in the future. and then not in russia except to the purpose of idea yes, all day and makes us a pub point. um, even the, the house depends on how gullible do we think the russians. i mean, clearly uh, 25 years of pigeons rule has brainwashed the people into a significant degree. but i'm, this is really a big ask to actually, i'm the mom, the people see this as a part of the ukraine war rather than a catastrophic failure of this teaching secuity states. and it's

a major political problem for bruton, because security is putin's brand. he came to power in the wake of, of terrorist attacks and most going around russia. his contract with his people has always been that he keeps them safe and a hostile wells. and we see that there is a catastrophic basic failure of that security state. the putin is built to fulfill its basic function very good, a beating up baba's cars with bunches of carnations. and they're very good at the other side of terrorizing hipsters demonstrations. but clearly, but not doing the main thing they're supposed to do, which is to keep people safe from this kind of pulling terrorist attack. so right me, if i can go back to the group itself, just be clear for us. what are they trying to achieve? i'm what is your estimation of how strongly they are and exactly where they all based a basically what that takes about saving compassion to,

to the groups as well as much them before they don't believe in an seems to be states. so for them, everybody's basic shannon and other states are enemies. moving to tape underneath the even for the if send me college has equal so. so enemies because i don't put them with games for them. so in that sense, that tried to destabilize the damage and on diamonds, but there was something quite products because with the highest case of pulling the agenda. so the type about tax that we want to know in the around the 13 that would most cool. it's share that you'd be outcome of that. um we connection up any stuff in the sense that death to that continued up any time, but the time you've been for the best job as loudly come down on the dispensing best tens. are a single kidding. some of that he does and so on. and so for the move, because of the huge pressure that the face thing enough, can you stand by that, that you've done things in the sense that trying to project violent and as well as

i may have done that to you to domestic violence, big enough against them, so it to be products to good, but then that violence either so about the outcome of the failure to achieve something. and i've done this one. let me get your take on that. um it how, how is the group's fortunes changed since august 2021. because before that they would talk to the by the us that were us rates arrests and asked strikes. and of course now the ad, the 3 is the tell about how is that and your, if you change the fortunes and the strength as well. i mean, they become a much stronger because with the departure of the americans, the departure of the international community. and the thought about being generally a week full so that they have maintained security to some extent. but they can't do the kind of intelligence work required to deal with extremism. and so, i mean we, we have a very, very difficult situation for them. i mean, the world can say, the pariah. so does this attack mean that russia is going to recognize

a solid body for what clothes came into thought about like $10.00 to $5.00 prices came in inches. that may well be the outcome in the post of the child. so protest from, i've done women and others who have been deprived of the job. we lived here by the run, but they're doing this funding as really pages and, and almost a problem. i have a question for for the taliban. and also for those countries who are refusing to recognize the thought of ahmed jerome jerome made the point that the lashing out beyond that kind of storm because they're under pressure and that's kind of stone. if you look at the recent attacks, there was back in 2022 attempt on the life of the acting on bastrop pocket stone in kabul, a suicide bomber attacking the russian embassy, russia again to to target, and also in 2020, to attacking a hotel, popular with chinese national since then the attacks in pockets started in 2023, and in january this year, iran,

do you agree with jerome that they all they are expanding? yes, absolutely. yeah, this is, i mean, this is the basic tactic. they have it as soon as i bundle them out using that very extensively around the whole region. and this is a way of expansion by itself. this is actually a political way, but it's a, a way to use it as i bomb is the fact that they can sooner retreat suicide bombers . presumably from all these neighboring countries, says a lot of bad abilities for the time be. now, you know, we haven't seen an attack by then in the west, but if the, if an attack does come in the way, what does the americans going to do? are they going to launch a massive offensive, like they did up to 911? 0 oh, what, what are their options? he did, i think i used problems as a now coming up with the forefront of being the to be traced by nature to us. and

they have to be thinking ahead of what these groups are capable of. thinking ahead to what can be done to control these groups. jerome, they haven't, it seems completely finished enough. got us to um, because the day before the attack in moscow there was an attack again, we believe carried out by this group of suicide bombing on a bank in kandahar. and of course, come to ha, is not the capital of afghanistan, but it is where the telephones supreme leader have been to the arkansas the lips. i guess the size of the that's what the objects to when you look at that, that's not gonna start usually. but try to add that i the just minorities so that place the ships are multi civilians because those are somehow easier to walk if traits because of the because that many of those play see that's going to be talking to you to. so it's difficult to ensure security every way or the time. so they kind of need target highland or any benefit you'll spikes on which could be part of the objectives to really just i'd like to tell you about the government,

but the comfort yet shape that. so instead bout fussing that way into with those low low level targeting in the, in public basis, because a lot, i mean, seems easier to achieve. oh, and let me ask you why, what's a target russia, do you think? i mean, i assume you're going to refer all the way back to the, so it'd be a war in afghanistan. chechnya, and russia's role in syria. yes. well, you're going to your investment, james, that's exactly why it's also relatively easy target must go is full of central asians. they have, as the guest are biters, who do all of the the to, to work and most of the borders between. that's free movement within the customs union. i'm so touch eric's was backs and kick is a worker to central asia can freely come to him, but to him from moscow. and it's just the targets of, of,

of convenience as much as ideology, simply because it's easier to hit must go than it is to hit the west. the western europe is hard to get into. you need to get visas, you need to travel, whereas you can literally drive from central asia to the credit because the city whole, the, it's the right by the ring road. it's just a ton off the main major way on your in purpose city. hold on. i don't notice you were trying to get in the yes, i mean, you know, i, i, i really feel that the, the driving factor in this is that a chain of the russians by many of these i think by large these who are fighting either for as um or they're fighting for an independent skate. they're both extreme nationalist and extreme assignments. and so, so this is an area that really has not been explored. i spent 2 years try to track down some of these who's back and direct medicines a and in the meantime,

jake has done and they're very well organized and, and i'm very, very much in control of the areas that they occupied and, and, but it's very difficult to reach them and the local government. so just, you know, not capable of, you can imagine what the local governments are doing. if we can con, con, put together for us to tackle them, the local governments are facing even bigger problem. let's examine this test. you just on link because my understanding is the 11 people according to the russian and terry ministry who are being held. all they say is that will for nationals, but there's also being state tv footage of interrogations, of at least 2 suspect one. this clearly speaking, tasha which is a version of persian very close to dory. jerome told me about tennessee cust on why this might be important. and why that that country might be

a recruiting ground for this group. i got to reserve the phone and the 1st 20 that i would have getting stuck in the beginning of time. i guess ive blotchy tried to rely on i think minorities that tried to go outside that, that event as a past due on the groups. so the site balance for you prefer if any, give me a ride to that must have moved terminated by the best ones. and so they also tried to include among minorities, so that's a tiny bound interaction. come down on the minorities so that the defense i'll see if i yes, as a means to protect those. you know what? so that's one of the reasons that i will try to buy a house that didn't use them. and it's the only reason it goes to about that to stay on the conflict. many, indeed yours from some sort of a job, but also from russia, investigate chestnut. and so when to steer you have to find in the ranks of ideas. many of them got the kids, but some of them after i yes, low seats, territory bank of and 19 left here. now they went to russia. some of them went to

ukraine. some of them just didn't pay this past about the region. and so i guess k s tried to rely on those individuals. so the best think on tri printers, we didn't buy if k that's relies on this, think minorities would trust one another better would speak the same number. each was in a way connected to one another. so you know, wait, frustrating states them are belie eviction and 5th street. they've got any additional that that's abroad. so it's not, that's a 70 on the about that just give them a bit of thought about that. that's the best part and what is happening to them. i'd like your take on touch. it gets to on you spend a fair bit of time that very important impoverished country and it's had the same lead a foot 3 decades. this is a headache for the touchy govern government. is it not a cup safety? i don't see how they're going to cope with this, especially if tomorrow must go names. a bunch of stuff, jakes, responsible for this. brought me 3. we. i agree completely with the default the

previous speaker, what you said, that the real danger is the the, the problem to look up to do now. and the fact that this probably needs to be neglected for so long. and we are faced with multiple crises now in this part of the world in which there is very little understanding of the forces that are active of who is doing watch and to western intelligence is no longer have to pile what it was before, wouldn't be both things main, a button so you, so you need the need now to ally with the regional countries and reason governments and uh, based off sto, intelligence. and how can we deal with the present pricing? that's the p agenda for now. a huge problem then full time. so you can still on, but perhaps an even bigger problem. oh, info for the kremlin right now. because you know, this was

a very large concept venue one, but let's see a spend use in russia. this is a very well known band. i'm told picnic molten 6000 people were the sold out show. where was the security? yeah. um, can i just come back on as many questions point because actually, um there is a, um, uh there's the assumption that puts in is a rational act that he will address. and his security services, military forces will address the actual problem which has attacked them. in other words, a research and central asian is why i'm asked movement based in touch, it gets done. that will be what a sensible, rational government would do. unfortunately, the tragedy, the danger in the situation is that actually pretend doesn't really have the bandwidth as either politically or militarily to do anything about it. what he's in, he's deeply engaged in you credit, and that's his goal. he claims that it's of,

and it's not sees in care for that of the major essential threats to russia in no way does the, as long as the threat track with his political messaging and he's spending 40 percent of his, of a state budget on fighting that will it may be that he actually wishes to escalate that will, i suspect, but he doesn't want to escalate the will, but he will be forced to do something by this terrorist attack. it's a challenge to his most dougherty, as i said in my early comments, and he'll have to do something. but what can he do in central asia? he's, he's my, he's not going to send, you know, must have forced as to assess the touch of government to root out the. it's a inside sions, in its entire trio. i've gotten, i mean, he conceivably could do that, but that will be a massive distraction. you'd be facing effectively warranty front. but the, the, the tragedy i'm the power of the situation is that to,

to kind of how it has to be about you crate. and because that's why i put in this committed, the reaction i think is not going to be in central asia. the major reaction is going to be in ukraine paradox because of that might seem, i'm credited but nothing to do with it. but it's the only place that puts and really has the capacity to react. how do you think that they are looking at this well beyond the region we're talking about perhaps in china, perhaps in western capitals. how are intelligent services and leaders looking at this? and how worried should they be? i think is i think they should be very wise because they, they really are very looking information about this region and what is going on in this region and the false is that uh what we do driving militancy. um i, i just like to make the point that, you know, the, um, the, the russians uh, disliked in tennessee. um, in central asia. uh, except by the, the various it needs to occupy like their own governments. um and the question,

for example, uh, you know, uh um is nato or any other active partner i'm going to get it out from the local political bigwigs or not. and i feel very much said, oh, i knew were probably of questions was going to crop up now, which frankly, we don't have the tools to really properly overlap. jerome is it that history is replacing itself. i know it was only 2021 when the us laughed, but as this vital region being ignored. yes, again, is being built mostly seem as uh, from a 2nd to younger. one to timothy was speaking about the political issue before speaking about the interactions between the rest of the country, the tiny, but it's kind of neat on the seems so the on good of security, but the so body teaching, what do you think the physical needs come setting up any of these effective needs,

the government. so what are, what, what, what the strategy to address these move into potentially to engage it. despite soon or the stake, understand the end difficulties. i don't need to build up on one of your bundle, told you about the width of the intelligence when we speak to us and so sees what can you and security that increasing you wherever you needs about about these group . so i'm confused. think gemini, find out that's 90 percent of the products think including are going to get all names directly to a yes. k. so it's, it's a really rich at the same time. and so some very deep funds from what to be. so in 2015 sense 16 when i asked him if he had any right quick recruit west any with your can you send them to celia train and then send them back to we go up to fight. in that case, the reliance on the sneak networks, including the jeep suspects and storm, means that they are not able to get to organize and very complex of activities. but

keep the tube ease bessie, that the as the main strength at that moment. so thank you very much. thanks you too. all guess today ahmed rashid? oh and matthews and jerome. dr. role. and for more on this story with plenty of contacts and analysis to go to the out. is there a website that i which is 0 don't com? i'm sure you have your views to do on today's discussion. go to a facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. we're also on the old twitter now called x y. you'll find us at a inside story for me, james phase, and the whole team here in doha. stay safe bye for now. the the latest news as it breaks demonstrators law ser remaining is really capt is brought back from dogs, us. and they want the broad back now with the to coverage posting and say that what areas did here in his final words, pre postpone,

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