the poles between science and spirituality, both seeking to understand and the owner of those who came before us the danish, scientists, quests to interrogate the dna of earliest people in the united states reveals shocking. at the cool and personal dynamic remains a witness documentary on a jersey to a d. i n saying has controlled politics in south africa for 3 decades, but not anymore. the african national congress has lost this majority for the 1st time since taking power. so what's behind the civic, and how will that shape politics and the country? this is inside story, the

hello welcome to the program on tell mccray, it's a vote that's engine. suzy. g is a v i n c's dominance and south african politics. but it has dealt a blow to the african national congress angry and what they consider to be it's finally, it's a deal with a dot economy and poverty. now the policy will have to engage in tools with rival this to form a coalition government. so what concessions might make and what does a weekend and say mean to politics and the country. we will talk to a guest in just a moment that this, this report by a distant good foot historic plunge and support for the party empower for 30 years. the governing african national congress or amc had won a majority in every election since the end of apartheid. that is out. but on wednesday it got about 40 percent of his votes in general elections. a fall of roughly 17 percent on 2019. with unemployment high and poverty widespread, many voters feel does illusion. it's a lesson plane. see that the 40 percent that they're much speed up. does the 60 men

do service deliver to the people who are the 2nd amc set that was partly due to the former president, jacob's whom i resigned in 2018, following a series of corruption scandals back in south africa and politics with his newly founded m. k. party he pulled support away from the a and c. his party came through nationally with 15 percent of the vote. and one in the cause of do not tell provence. ok the den formerly and amc strong holt need a change to start from someone. and i'm glad to be a part of the cheese. it is bringing about the changing saying, you know what, the title, what this is we're trying to take a new direction and hopefully this new direction can change. another break away party economic freedom fighters help split the votes along with the democratic alliance movement coming. second, the amc will now have to form

a coalition government to stay in power. it's also been undermined by rising crime rates, corruption scandals and constant power blackouts. the n c used to be the political party that is been the for the, for the black majority to only to find out that to that, not the with column and due to elected president in the next 14 days. it's in certain weather, single run muscles that can keep the top job. we want to engage with the agency of filling out my posts. so we can have a discussion with the answer for the answer. so what i'm a pleasant. how's that possible? from a liberation movement under nelson mandela, c a n c came to power with promises of prosperity for all and greater equality, promises many sell southwick and say it's failed to deliver and they can only hope a coalition might do better if to some good food. i'll just the or

the color spring. and now guess now from johannesburg, is milan come a lot? see, she's the research at the institute, the penn africans thoughts and conversation from type town john hoffman, who hits the policy and analysis program at the institute of justice and reconciliation. and also from japan does big monthly my con. yet who is editor in chief of the city pris? news type of thanks very much for joining us here on inside story and what is a fascinating time. and so the african politics of the festival. monthly. before we get to the coalition negotiations, i just want to talk a little bit about the issues that the i n c has had through the selection. what do you put the massive dropping support down to it is as you say, a massive, massive companies like because that kinds of stuff it's out in front of them. i think the main things are basically that left off delivery to start. if it comes

to ordinary people, you have headboard test shortages and the issue of electricity is our reference. that is massive. it's been an international story. been backed up like we have what we call, you know, sitting front x needs power outages and, and basic things at the local level m at the roles m and this unemployment, this method of poverty. and the thing is people have not seen a change in any improvement and delivery by this government. there was hope at once, but jacobs who might hear that it's ended that settled on my post. i will begin to improve service deliberately. that's kind of being an improvement in the fight tickets corruption. but all of that has not happened. and that's i think, what are the major reasons why they see has to be

a huge drop. and i think also just like just very briefly and the mt off the and them, so we'll get that at some point, the mt off, the assume the pa g. yes, m has had a huge impact because those primarily agency voters who move over to that party looking for some kind of oh yeah, and a little i could do you agree with that assessment that this is catastrophic for the i n c. and it's basically been down to the inability to deliver the magic talked her beauty stopped. i think the so totally is that is part of it. i don't think that it's a true kind of transition to see that's of the end. she has an autism, but anything like i do think that perhaps the program may be that the easy, the show piece of transformation to clean so pages of, of the whole, you know, crazy and critical issues in south africa. i mean quite a number of opposition parties, including even so an opposition parties that have emerged in this election. some of

the key issues that they originally the come on, right amongst these people are these, these are opposition parties that even if the m k, u, a t, and as, as if it was such as things that could lead to question, you know, i think that on the 29th of, of, of me when would you think that the eviction there was an entire community in south africa coast? he's got most of the way to commit to refuse to participate in fully default and process. and then i can then talk about the reason for the protest was that we have had a need training since 1996 that has not been resolved. so i think one of the things that is very interesting about this, you mentioned that even spoken about, you know, he's been requiring into the emergency about the lack of the, you know, the show piece of transformation and particularly as it relates to the lend question. but the ends, the government takes over the last that he has not been able to to, um, to resolve. but i over to occur even with one v. i ball today, they the issue of the incoming. but i mean, i think i understand the n k, the emergence of the m k and the emergence of the if it's an all other hockey's that had previously been out of, you know, the crop trouble did the in c,

these to speak about the internal, the failure of internal um the results which will be internal conflict within the agency. i think the amc has proven itself to be an organization that is incapable. well, i'm really rather to deal with content on a contract diction building 10. i'm confident in a minute that maintains cohesion and back maintains i'm district the connection, different types, things mean telegraph, checking the in see the failure to resolve those 10 on contract issues. i've alternate to disappoint of the pa taking the last 2 years. we have seen the sol, patchy speaking. how does the in see, and i think that something was reflected on your end to. yeah, and i want to go to, you know, i mean, is that how you see it as well that it's basically an inability for the amc to have really made any real progress with so many issues in south africa that has seen the drop in popularity. no, we just agree with 5 colleagues. i think looking into most of the auction where we're trying to say that the agencies really become the victo eucharist,

particularly over the past decade to the hosp, to as a bulky divided a party that was obsessed with himself as of the experience of his constituency. and as a result of a forwarded to the party that really lacked focus and attention over this, this theory and a search when one has seen satisfaction is a emerging over the years in the 1st day kind of the hall is actually along the lines of ideology. in the past decade and a half increasing the lives of personality and patronage. and that has had a cost for society at large. yeah, mostly for people who are outside of south africa and watching this. can you just give us a sense of what it is actually like the or at the moment? i mean, it really is on childhood. both is full of the country. is there a feeling of uncertainty about what is going to happen next? what if you have a governing part to you that has been in power for 30 years?

i'm like, that's all the, the people sort of guy have ever had in the system to that the aids you were when the elections and now you have a sense, i'm going to pace you down. so i'm 57 percent 40 percent. and now to people in this country do not know what the saved us been next government is going to be. so there's a lot of time such events and there's a lot of speculation. obviously business wants to know. well, how the new coalition government will look like and an ordinary people actually want to know what it is that kind of like what their future looks like for that for the next. right? yes. but you know, but that, that there's also another, and that means that people actually seeing democracy, it looks then naturally when you do need to have the system t off a one part to you that is always going to govern the country that actually kind of make the back of the benefits, it would be better for the forward bits over the next part. is that the easy way,

even though it is still the majority part of would be afraid of losing power image and that would be more responsive to the mazda of the people. and so there is a sense of optimism, as well as a sense of uncertainty. yeah, like what do you agree with that sentiment that you know that this could actually be a good thing for south africa that there's not just one party in total control? i mean i, i repeat the god, i try that. i do agree. i said to me, 2 or 3 weeks more to do that and the sentiment of the ground is that, you know, this is democracy at work. i think, you know, we, we shouldn't, by no, as you know, you know, that's the, is um some, some disagreements with the outcome. the m. k party in other parts. some of the parties have changed the outcome of the election. anything you said called for a recount to each of those are the counting and all of the se, an entire meet election. i think of any type of about voting processes. and of course, of the, of those, you know, concerns and so on and so forth. the is that,

i mean, i don't think that overall the is that they don't that the is something something, some optimism about you know, what this means for democracy in the democratic project in south africa. i think most of each quarter to that, you know, for the last 2 years. so the guys will actually be um, a b s i had as much, we had a told me that pots according to consistent way to go the way of the political parties. the n c has been to the governing party. it has what has maintained a majority. i mean, i do think that's warranty as well. that is a sense of anxiety because in the last few years and particularly since twitter 2016 lucas kaufman collection, you will remember that until difficult. we have 2 types of the nation. we've got the genetic connection, where would you mix the national government and the probably show governments. that's why we had this we or on the 29th. but we also have another process that happens usually 2 years before that. and that's the, the gluco cover, the connection and that's where we elect, municipal government or government, it'll come diesel. and what we have seen since 2016 is out of the case being the emotions of coordination. governments like local government level, industry to of,

to, in the count them problems, which is the economy can never say until this opportunity cost to me that i bought 3 made for pointed money to pay to these a category 8 minus apologies, very frequently to participate in eclipse resources, and in the 2016 electric the amc north auto bye for one of those. and even where it maintains between teams and of the government, see that money to a equation. government individuals coordinated. he lost the city of to his. but you can also see 2 of $1280.00 plus other late for pretty good money, but it is in the country. and what happened after that was that we had to go to unstable equations. we had a lot of stuff bleaching. all of these quite, he shouldn't see for the future if we're leaving those americans stuff with you to which effect of service to anybody in other things, but potentially which affected the ability of institution democratic institutions. the bindles wanted to present to you that steve creates, you know, a sense of concern for quite a number of people about, you know, what if i suppose one of the disability pages, i don't know, people are wondering,

but if we have head, you know, position conference in the country and particularly at mid 4, they're both that have been so stable and, and brought about so much writing stuff each. and then since i can see what else to look like, if you were to then take that and transpose it into a be got me those through the national impression. i'm pretty sure i've got to make yet to use that anxiety as well. yeah, well the i n c secretary general has just spoken on that point and he said as an ice and we will stand together against those we tourism violence and instability. yeah, and is there a real chance that violence could actually break out in the wake of these results? and i think it does. it is highly unlikely to, to look at the way in which our democracies, it has been called flooded ages over the past 50 years. i think there, there is much in it for us to, to, to keep the confidence that um, that, that violence or instability is not really a option. i think what we may see is some sort of very intense conversation over

the next couple of weeks to, to ensure that a government or some sort is, is being formed. but i do not think the prospect of, of instability at this point is that strong. having said that, i, it also says project that we work on at the institute for justice and reconciliation is the effort of enrollment to which is the continental survey that look at the issues of democracy and trust in institutions that it cetera. and so, but we have seen over the past decade in the off also has been that there has been a decline in trust in taking the calls of institutions. in other words, the way in which these institutions immediate conflict within society. and i think what we will see, you know, in the next couple of weeks is how strong these institutions are and the extent to

which they can cope with the stresses being placed on that. yeah, in date i want to move on now to what the coalition could actually look like. uh, mostly what options does the amc realistically have here? who will be the 1st picked to be a coalition partner with as well. yeah, that is a really difficult, wonderful. the a z at this particular point is about 40 percent. and if i had been slow, such as 50, let's say for the 728 of some homes were kind of at the bottom supposedly say they would have actually been able to come to give us some smaller product to use that they could dominate. now the needs big parties ended to next for the next 2 to 3 big parties is the democratic alliance, which is, i don't, i do a lot the key. not in sync with the agency. yeah. that's more liberal my. yeah. and then you have the, the as these apache, which is basically phone by gives them all the individual center my goals and

everything that the m k purchased as far as the ac does not stand for the engine constitution, the engineers or discovery and etc, etc. i'm not used to attend, but they're basically, they're supposed to most of the fundamentals of the foundations of south africa. the next 94 units i've just had went into and many a video which basically told me that the ac. what am i the most likely that is much more alignment, but the e s. s has tended to be more just disruptive. all governments might relate to what the on that is, something with disabilities that uh, that it weighed coalitions. and that basically that a lot of instability and the best has been a lot of that because they know how to use power to exec and transitions from the majority parts, which is the n c. so if the easy way to go into publish and look at it at the

national level, you can imagine the kinds of co off of demands that they would make. and this is that, that would make the easy was an easy was not going to because the answer is very conscious of invest that sentiment and market sentiment, etc, etc. like it, do you think that the i and say serial rema posit could actually ever work with if, if and jacobs. i'm such a, i mean the n c already isn't a condition with the example in the city of equity. it's a metropolitan monday. so probably to, with a or come and finish of a put is located the 5th and the amc, our king and completion date. and he said superset, someone that's a tough decision of to his big. um, so i do think, and i think maybe it's as important. i need to see this 1st of all i, i just give you a bit of a brief, a brief explanation of this. right. but yeah, it's what's called it in, in printing in 2015. and it consists of the fact that which is the 1st emissions i cannot get to the front of the gate in 2014. now that, yeah,

and for this published by the full money need of the amc usually to less money and all the details of the in see you keep fluctuate for now we must understand that when the f was found, it last funded on a principle of what he calls 7 kind of know p us, those 7 kind of a p less at a die like the good you to should of conference resolutions of the 24th national congress of the and so you think, and it also trump you on, you know, to be football, trump getting of the free don't charge. i know visa amc foundational foundation on which i'm getting the mt party. unfortunately. i mean, i do agree with the ones that the awesome personality issues but and sofa is in the concrete times and i do much. com standpoint, to, and politically standpoint, don't know, because the mt project in fact, does not have any policies and they do have a money for us to what they call it people's money people. but it's very, very tricky. age. the other point though is you're talking about personality issues between the 2 because i mean, they openly despise each other. i mean,

could you give a young see it? it coalition working with zoom, a and rim, oppose a, as the leaders of both of those bodies. like i think the, the k is already expressed itself on, on that issue, saying that it will not enter into a conversation with the agency risk zoo. uh sorry, with, from apologize as present as of all the agency. and i also think this, this kind of causation. um, is the place like see all the different options. if one looks at the okay, but across the country, one does see that a bar 95 percent of the state golf came from 3 provinces. which doesn't really make it a party that speaks to, to the entire last weekend. and we went in sinks to the findings of in goose a solution for the country in the wake of this very garage scene election. this

may not be, i think from the strategic point of view for the african congress is based apartment to, to unify the country also in the wake of a very this devices detection campaign. okay. mostly what's, uh like, well, what are the issues? i mean, what, what's going to be on the negotiating type of, what's the, i and so you're going to have to give up a m, a z goes into coalition with that democratic alliance. it is going, some of the democrats in our lives has already put them on the, on the table. the issue of this now has insurance of ac rams. through is, is similar to the image to estimate in the united kingdom and the ends, the events of empowerment, and then any to sign for the president and the, on the days of the lots of ministration. and there's an education build up and that democratic alliance has and it is rejection of ac has to push forward. but i think

they will also be having a lot of demands around. and the difference is, i think around our position on the understanding is the issue. and i think that's the place that works and victim carpet advice is very much in favor of israel and is not committed to the financing of causing the amc. it's very much committed to that it started to be a big issue because, but a government will have to do with this and on that. and i think the advantage of that that was definitely coming up. yeah. and what that is is it's going to be economy, but yes, it is very strong left to make the problem. yes, this is f, as i mentioned, that one, the basic them and young did find out that step. it's a coalition with the mt. pepsi is a, is a fantasy that will never happen to you in the me who the next next cannot be all as i'm just not going to work of my like,

i guess just moving to the issues and there are many that size south africans at this point in time, what does the majority of south africans actually want from the government right now and, and what combination of coalition is actually best to deal with those issues? i mean, i think fund them into the cans with 4 to 4 days depending on how you could be taught. if you don't really been a bit tough to pick a lot, it's if it's a standard of living. so have the kids also for you to, to on demand question. like i said, with communities like he's got his work and making a protest. um, you know, disengagement with the board to process. so if you're around to you know, the next question would create a very prominent team. does he mention even if they've not being, you know, really outlined and engaged in their fullness. if you're around treated, just the cost of living this done that hopefully by for young people this other because we'll issue the unemployment issue. i mean, clearly does the theory to be push it. you would know that the south african uh, i think we'll see you on an employment rate stands that about that just over 32

percent. but use unemployment spent over 60 percent to the highest in the world. and young people cause be treated 40 tool point 5 percent of the full testing this eviction. and that's a very huge number of people. and they, you know, one of the things that keep the, all that all the time is that you, this issue of unemployment issues and improvement. you should not cover to instructor on any qualities. i do think that those are the key issues and i think, you know, the, the default of have, we're good when, you know, i think we're looking at the, the, the results we don't she, it was already as the, the majority of the owner. that clearly what they're sitting typically is that they don't believe that the in, so you can go at this. i know that the piece at the n c on each one is more capable of for solving these issues. but it should be part of a be got the, the end of the table should be the benefit. and for more people on the table, some of whom might have some solution to some of these questions. and some of which might milton, that's what i'm going to is he comes in and the other parties do come in. but i just pray. let me just quickly say, i think that i don't agree with lindsey,

but an m k a and see what they think is see if you like it. and it's never going to happen because that's incorrectly. i was incredibly kind of to rise. a lot of these, these, these conflicts between the amc and the m. k is leslie issue of personalities. and i think what people are out of the 2 adults can always be negotiated as well. yeah . for that. oh, okay. yeah, i'm just going back to the end, the call is a poverty and unemployment that is facing set of africans at this point in time. who do you think is best as part of that coalition? who is best, who, who is best going to serve the people of south africa in dealing with those issues . and the thing baby just to go back to your, your question was about the issues that kind of it's on the africans. particularly vote is we just completed a nationally related to survey in about 2 weeks before the elections and we've off the boat is just this question which, which issues what the pros you about the 3 pointing to the big issues that came up

was unemployment based on the highest, the buck 71 percent of our respondents followed by the question of electricity provision, which is a major issue inside pick up because it also impacts on the place of employment. and then certainly the question of the corruption. yeah. and then there are many other issues, but the main issues that say the library looks of how so that we can send their ability to have it can all make agency back to the question on who would be best to best position. i think it would be those policies that will be able to bring the voters along with them in a coordination because they will be tradeoffs on all sides. the trade offs that the ac we'll estimate. but i think the for just thing comes off of the one option, the most interest coded russian was a democratic airlines. it will also have to make, make tradeoffs with,

with this particular constituency and, and also the guy shared these and there is a possibility also for me, i can using bucks because the wisdom teeth province, which, which, which the idea is quite strong, has rejected the ac going to be a over the past 2 decades. unfortunately, we will have to leave it there, but we really do look forward to seeing what, how, how exactly how this is going to play out over the next a couple of weeks, like a young, lonely thanks. so much for joining us here on inside story and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting website. that's all just there. a dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on x handlers as a inside story for me, tell them the cry, and the whole team here, bye for now the

interrogate the narrative. there's no question about it. the united states is effectively complicit the genocide challenge the rhetoric. yeah. think the correct, but so is the international community upfront. only what happens is if you will see the caught a duty and a growth using fruits p use a caught to contribute to improving the lives of thousands of our projects except the cost and we strive to ensure it reaches it's deserving recipients. visit the cost on the web presence and remember it's a cup you revise wells and increases systems. customer ridgecrest what happens in the. 1 it has implications all around the world to make these stories resonate requires talking to everyday people from their,

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