for we've got some speed about black, but i'm going to do it live on come funny enough for the police left behind us to block a central workers share their experiences of racism in the u. k. replaced i sort of a point where they've done well and showed the way black. it was on the weathering on the jersey, at a fury in india, a student see that a state exam results scraps because of a corruption scandal. police are investigating leaks of exam paces, affecting more than 3000000 young people. so it's next for the students and the countries education system. this is inside story, the

hello welcome to the show. i'm sammy's. a them is of study for more than $3000000.00 students in india, have come to nothing that's not down to them. failing exams because of a fe, the in the nation's exam system is the entrance exam papers. so top courses such as medicine and page, these have been linked all sold, exams that students had post now be declared invalid, then we'll have to be re taken 5 minutes. then the render moody's government is 5, the official in charge of the examinations agency. but it faces a major test of its own to restore confidence in the system. so how could this happen and what's the impact on india and this young people will speak with all guests in a few moments. but 1st is laura han with the background fury on the streets of new tally over an examination system in k of students have been protesting,

says widespread cheating was reported in state exams with papers being leaked in return payments with an unusually high number of people scoring 12 months, the national testing agency runs the system, is being blamed to mind that we demand that they'd be an inquiry with the supreme court's intervention. the national testing agency must be disbanded and the ministry must be dissolved the exams effect students taking interest to state universities for medical school and ph. d. programs there furious. the use of study exam pressure on stress the effectively be made worthless. you're asking the education minister to meet your per done to take this money and return the future back to us. and some students, the taking legal action students really don't know what to do better will people have people have partition the highest for these concrete? this will be important because the country, the government is fine to say that they are formed in call, you come and see, but then quantity, how much is

a 4th is comes in 2 months. it's nothing to use 1st scans low for exams, but it's the biggest complaints of being lots this year about corruption surrounding entrance exams. the government's jobs with many applicants losing out to those with money and influence. the government says it's taking action prime minister and rendered moody, that the agencies had some exams have been canceled, and several people arrested still becomes when it was clear that the his paper on the document matches the original paper, we decided that they should be a high level central bureau investigation inquiry on the matter. the scandal is putting pressure on moody's newly formed government just off to his b. j. p. last, it's outright majority in the general election that ended the celtic june. many protests as an students are riding with opposition policies, claiming an unfair system of control and corruption at the time when they also

angry about how i use unemployment and poverty. the youngsters in india simply have no way to and it's not just the educational crisis. it's a crisis and pretty much every sphere that we're facing who's hoping to advance that careers through education. and that's not knowing when the next exam will be, know when the scandal will be resolved. north, on the inside story, on to 0. the all the while guess already you dally today inside biology is a form of president of the joint ha, now through university students union kit on bossy is a senior visiting fellow at the center for policy research, specializing in education policy and survosity. the scope to is a senior reporter at the why, who focuses on politics, policy, and governance,

if i could start with survosity. so how could so many tests be potentially compromised? so many times and that's such a scale. and that's really the question that is in front of the more the government guides grades and some of you because this is an unprecedented crisis that we're facing in india entity, the national exams, which will only conducted on a stimulus community full of am simultaneously for yours this, i'm guessing that there's a complete failure on the 5 of the government in conducting these exams. and well, watch people are placing back to is some nations new testing agency which is encrusted with of the duty to conduct these exams. back in 2018 non chapel, it's in all the national that the agency according to it, right? the information of no guide to information or data that has come out of credit that's been submitted in the right way. information crazy has reviews that the chair for us, and he was appointed for us to do the monday for the states public service

commission on the recommendation on the are it says which is the id cards. post dated all the 9th vision on the b, 2, b. and subsequently he has been appointed to separate out the public service commission head, including the union public service commission that overseas the bureaucrats, that ira conduct examinations for bureau. that's at the center level in india. now that has not void even now despite so many irregularities that have come out, not the just in the a d which looked into the medical examinations, medical entrance examinations, but also the next exam, which gives the entrance exams to do new research, federal chips as well as assistant professors on the government has acted because as we mentioned earlier, the fact is and the more the government is shocked with an absolute majority. so it is on the back porch, just at the back of an election campaign, ready opposition, due to the off the police as a massive issue and the youth across the country, the variable,

the garden reporting as mc. whether you'd have said very clearly that the police is a major issue. people in, in the north, in india are dependent on government job because they, they look at it as a almost exotic d, a as a form of life. beta, a government job gives them a sense of a lifelong just getting financial even off to these the style. so people use was a major issue during elections now after the election for the b to be being short of when that through the majority of the $240.00 piece and having to rely on this allies wrong. so the last thing, if i will, will pick up in a moment on the question of how implicated the b j, p d r s s is on this. but before we goes to further down that road of politics, i want to take a step back again and i'll skid on the question. obviously this is not this problem of linked papers. it doesn't look like the actions of just a rogue individual given the numbers of times that this has happened and the scale

who's behind it, how big and how powerful a network must be operating here, todd, to say just so because you know the investigation is somebody just because, but obviously involves a large network of, you know, not just people in, but we're being the testing agency, but private dogs and people are also in education institutions. but i think the point that really needs to be highlighted here is that, you know, over and above the corruption aspect, what this exam really cuz highlighted is the concerns of job and due to the, the education system in india is getting facing today. i mean, obviously that is a huge mismatch between the supply of educational um, you know, positions or seats and colleges and the demand for them. i think in the higher education there is a huge, huge crowns. which clearly the numbers, as you said, you know, more than 3 of 23000000 students competing for 1100 and over 180000 seats. and you

know, it's like you've been a huge amount of pressure that is on there also as low as chavez speaking to because we have been experience as a lot of experience. what has to be in the car to job to grow the demography or you know, educational opportunities that directly links to jobs like medicine or engineering . but also government jobs like, you know, the police, etc. which are all of these are now under the we've sort of all being operated through centralized testing systems. 1 there's a huge pressure on the systems and finally that they've given rise to, you know, opportunities for corruption, so to speak, to need also hints at the big gaps in the state capacity, so to speak, or in, or in the governance architecture that goes around the central testing agencies, which are party responsible for the kinds of products you know for this kind of situation. that is also, you know, the, the tendency seems agreed to centralize ation. and the fact that a lot of these exams come under the central testing agency and there are

a lot of questions res, region to arrive about, you know, how they know what that has done to the autonomy of state level the institutions, including state boards and state curriculum would show and students from, you know, so those are the important questions that may, if i may bring in and side biology into this. and the 1st question, is it lots of questions to ask you about, you know, what this means for students and what they want. but before we get there, just give us a perspective of how easy it is for a student to get hold of leaked papers. is this something of a very fringe problem, or is it quite common knowledge among students as well? you'll see what has happened in the last 10 years from the time the present. the union dollar doesn't be jumping on investment ball bass slowly be changing. the exemptions have been the most decentralized. really exempt yourself,

but it has not been done. they do it to proceed from lovely type, only does centralization control leading to argument corruption, bnb that's on the listing agent. so the test done to the test turned out to be the national problem. identical students who do use the symptom of this new syndicate. why do i call it the syndicates, the bush at the very core? somebody's a little bit students to be. when they give an examination, they don't know what is best possible. if the paper was wrong. there's no make that is the good. there's no mechanism to move with that exact process as brands, but in this moment that is a blue shield for somebody that's possible for an act. but criminal act like a paper leak on that option. that is, it isn't a part of the old system. will it be as this criminal syndicates? this was built in football and ab, for, despite of the system as a list of practically speaking can to gonzalez do. what does that mean for students? if you're going into an exam, does that make it easier for you to cheat?

if you want to, you know, it depends upon whether you have the money to buy the russian people, you know them networks. so what is surprising is one of the facts that has come from, oh, you're very careful people only nobody gets a copy of that as it was it last 6 to 7 years. most of the times it is a people who are associated the party that that'd be getting caught. so there's a some kind of seem to get that has been established. and people who don't know that be all tech says though i may be part of the system because seats are less, the competition is more. if you have the money, you feel that it shows that the of the network people are getting more into the system. for example, the fact that there is one example multiple times the situations have gone through this situation. so rather than that, the question papers will lead to nothing to get out the channel became white i. this is just before the examination started. so the examination has to be cancelled out to be exempt. the symbols have this hopkins exams is up and it gets

examinations. this has happened if you don't have the exam 5, my system that is linked to this level and the students are having to face postpone method cancellation on the day to day basis. you're going to the split into. okay, so of us, the, the opposition, it sounds like where going down the direction which the opposition have been talking about that this is part of a bigger problem of government. corruption. is that the way you read the situation? i would say that it's a wrong problem. it's not just for that option. definitely it is a good option because as the biology was just mentioning, i and i also spoke to says the student is off to the b, but need to be thought for the examinations. next exam was done, so that deeper with me the, the new about decide that the question people's board are available in telegram channel. it's for a student and it was just about who had some money and the resources to be for those. 1 people and get access to it and who does it?

so these people, we have become so common please. that it was a very, very big component issue during the elections and the off position didn't minus just after slice on it didn't. who showed states like, was it for these and then behind. but if i from corruption, which the more the government of course leads to have sat down the bone and i need to try to pitch. it says i'm different from the earlier part of the state government, which was a rock of its production scans, and therefore the eventually decides down on the 9th of the me give the infringing 40. so these people need not only show the corruption um, that has been the more the government done, its inability to that because these problems, but also the fact that centralized vision of the major scheme that the government has thought to bring him in every form of uh, government functioning, whether it is the conductive examinations, whether it is the conductor of government business, everything is a, is trying, they're trying to make it a centralized structure where the, it's

a soft style approach and demo in democracy and federalism is being transferred to bonham. that is a judge that the off position is making that absorbers are also meeting, but it's not just production by an effort to centralize anything is leading to problems off or democratic law. some democrats position and all did not give us, give them what you said. he said that if it, if it's a problem of the system, i think centralize ation of everything can come, come the authorities confidently say, as they all to people will get to the bottom of this us will investigate this when even some of the investigative bodies like the cd, i mean they themselves have been legit to have been politically manipulated by the time. absolutely. i know, you know, the cbi, i used to be part of the huge fabric during the games, but now we have seen them pertaining to all of the more the government, not just the c, b i august, 2nd to the agencies like the enforcement directory, which lips the deacon nomic offences of that and that has also become on the,

essentially the thing. so who, in the sense that it functions on the detectives all the way and by doing the things that his practice shown in all positions he does, and it gives a clean cheque to the opposition leaders. web joining the b g b. i know you're getting election. centralized nation is a huge problem in this regard and democracy in federalism. the federal principle in indian democracy is under that i want to go back to biology if i can and say what the, what is the bottom line here? what does this mean for students who have signed their exams? and now they're learning that it's all cancelled. what's the bottom line for them? they lose time, they lose opportunity. they missed the year for enrollment. there's only one more discard, promo. and also when a student writes an examination, there is a think that the examination is being fed by doing this by failing the students,

the killing goal, the store on file for the future. and one point that has to be understood if they have to be it has to be a solution for this, but then problem the n p a has to go, let me pull them the discussion also little bit though, and bringing kit on and off this question from a broad, a sociological perspective what, what does this mean, particularly for students, people from disadvantaged communities because there's a lot at stake, particularly for them, right. they don't have access to the private education testing systems. yeah, and then obviously i didn't think ation solved in both in terms of you know, the opportunities available to them and in terms of being able to access even these or testing the services of the, the testing centers. i'm like, it was mentioned earlier, the centralized nation has in particular, impacted a lot of students from a model from nice communities manual home. uh, you know,

living daughter areas of in smaller towns because a big old, those phones that are perhaps run by state boards and so they access to central board of curricula very limited. and the central testing agencies are setting the tests, then they're likely to be saving them based on central the central, the school curriculum. so already that, so the, you know, the disadvantage they face, in addition, because these, you know, there's a lot of boston more reno accessing these centers in taking these tests. but in addition to that, because of the huge amount of competition, the mismatch between demand and supply has created. and we have the phenomenal, the now i'm say most of watching centers, which are also, you know, not easy to access for people so much related backgrounds with coaching centers of what your view was, especially life sentences which provide coaching for these a standardized centralized examinations, particularly formats and then for engineering, they are held in particular cities. uh, you know,

on several had several states of india and not only all the extreme li, of in oppression lives environments. and recently they have been cases of, you know, several of suicides committed just and one of the centers, which is, you know, made a lot of new also b as in the largest on the state of august on. now, because the students are the so much pressure to, you know, to study in a particular way in order to be able to compete in these highly competitive examinations. but they're also removed from their, you know, schools to be bought or musical during center. so it sort of really remove them from all the other benefits of that is that an education system provides templates and one big, huge psychological elizabeth is so kind of ready to go to specialists. so i'm yes, yeah, i'm wondering survosity given everything we've been saying. so fall then, how easy is the fix? is it just a matter of reviewing some exams? seeing what was leaks and just researching those exams. what does it sound like

this much bigger institutional fax is apply here. i think good dissertation has now come to a point, the way a computer, what am all that is required? because we need an independent to begin to watch and you already have going on. and the people who are alleged to have been involved or the, or the people who are part of, of this, this huge and c b. there is a deficit of public trust in the, in the national investing agency as well as the government. if the government is stored is stored in the public space and trust in the agency, i'm in the conduct the public service examinations that affect um millions of students and people across the country than an independent role. but use the way to go by the government has split and show that the people who are and who boarding blog. i completely 5 removed from the approval process or have so approved by an independent judge. who would be the way out with the government needs to explore

these to the store, public fees, and to ensure that the pro but use conducted in an, in the bouquets might not. that's a good point. let me take you to biology. what did the students want? do you think they will see the investigative process that's being allowance to this panel that's being put together from the n t a? will they see that as the independent pro, which i guess so talking about, you know, there's no independent, do you use it as students? i'm not happy with the investigation the top. as i said, students have the one thing that is ignition of the minister and also the champ, wasn't or responsible for this mess. you know, there's one, i just wanted to bring a website. there's a solution for this problem. the solution lies in the examinations will be good for the 2018. that was a method that as i mostly do, the thought that i'd be centralization, that kind of meant that possibly the bit did you get some of the solutions we're going to do when it comes to examinations for you? i don't want to do that either. that's the way you hi,

pop it in parties like simple board of secondary education, for example, the cd to see the boards. you just seen f examination. i put medical i the engineering examination, b i these i'm, the medical colleges were big dogs to watch, you know, as long as the entrance examinations at the lots of lots and lots kids. but one of them happened is not taking the academic corporate and the yet, what are you going to be doing a completing on economic beautiful bodies, which has football as it gets capacity, which is the start under the societies that we don't do but, and all that comes up, it's exist biology. does that mean the students want the national testing agency ultimately to be disbanded? absolutely. we thought they be fine. it's, it has become a national bromide agency for those students. or i can see a kid on wants to get in on a go ahead. yeah, i think, you know, it's probably connected to what everybody's saying that you know, that needs to be good accountability that needs to be close to the economy,

the store, which the owner system had, etc. but i think somewhere, let us not lose sight of the larger picture. and i think a lot of also needs to be done has to be education system engine. duty needs a lot of motor for we have seen and especially since gets a lot in the last decade. oh so that'd be education. budgets have gone down dramatically. and so the supply demand problem is it's becoming much worse as more and more people are speaking. hi and education, the opportunity, the seats available to them have really strong because investment in education is strong. so unless one of the addresses that huge mishmash, this ideal is huge competition in pressure. but a limited number of seats of the board are we are going to create opportunities for production. i mean, you, me bringing more thought would it be a try to bring that in? but there will be ways phones to you know, supplement that and bundle be on the other. that's not the only solution to this problem that has that means that many codes given i think that the present government needs to start reexamining. it's part of seo and education, you know, in a lot of sense and start looking at increasing investments in education,

particularly i education, because better the mazda has gone up, much more than the supply is able to provide. i mean, beyond not talking about the mass notification of identification because of this blog in addition to the kind of thing that is best. so it's not just about the goals about transparency and attacking that, that option that the says highlighted, but it's also about looking at the law that issues that the system face. and so that's also been some focus on those things. ok, biology i could see you are waiving that the give you a chance to come in on that. i just wonder do i have to work, you know, sitting absolutely. i agree that the point that dr bar is happening is because of the seats. but you also have to understand the goal and kind of blocking the policy rather than increasing the seats and the public funding. most of these, which is accessible under affordable for the large population of the people. but it's a good thing against it. what's the most likely that the issue maybe that maybe do most of these that are coming back bad policies likely. so we shouldn't just social justice policy,

but liberating people who are the marginalized cost and gender and other people leaving that aside. be pushing it $5.00 fees, loan bid education model in india, which is be funded hall's, it's a model that is being projected in the west. but as we are all set in the east, in the country like india. so even in places where there is expansion of seats that is happening, it isn't happening. the idea that i did you patients would be a model, football, cartridges, division model, wonderful, accessed affordability. this is something that we also have to accept. i listened on this is i think there's a lot to live in. you cannot go ahead and do it because the majority of the population behind you're going to be does not have a significant wage. i think i feel that some of that. so be so uh, confused to access higher education, we thought to show this as bonuses because that we shouldn't just be possible. that means a speed supported populate funded education has to please or either what is happening is that the most, i don't think this or i can see get on you what?

oh, all right, let me get, give you. let me give you a, a quick come back home that com before we have to bring in survosity, go ahead. sure. yeah, i agree either, but that's what i meant that the government has to look at what it's doing in education. and in addition to centralization, that as being the recent policy, there's also being a much greater shift towards private, the vision. and i think that that needs to be a come back from that just as it needs to be a come back to us more. the centralized vision is absolutely sure that more than 50 percent off of the seats. so, less privatization hold the investment in education, particularly higher education as to the need of the. okay. and so i think the that side of the screen is in agreement. let me take the question to survosity the, the big picture here for the golf image. how much of a flight to the government is this why this illusion then with the education system? it's not just down to exams as we're hearing from our panelists on the show, it's down to other issues, whether it's the centralized ation, the privatization,

the amount of funding for education. and i would say like, oh it's in so the b g b here is just come out of an election that has not one majority on its own into fucking seats. it's still short of $32.00 seats a for, for the major. busy the so it has to trade cautiously, no opposition after election, desires has made it very clear that they will read and watch. so how these products do any, please play out is very important for the, the expression. how would i know that? because we have seen that products have grouping out across the country, not necessarily backed by political parties, but still didn't for these happenings, protesting. so the government has been forced to actually have seen that the education is the team and address the press conference earlier when they used to be the funding. and the previous more the government, they used to be close to, nor response from the government of, from the government site. and here we saw the union and this differentiation coming in and accepting responsibility in the sense, seeing that that has been an institutional failure. so the government is on the

back put it needs for grades, get free, and if knows that it's, it does not have a majority on its own. and therefore it is, i being sure i, at this point, it does not have the impunity that should hide by usable to go to school laws as they would have liked it. why do i be reached to so if the government is going to trade a lot more carefully than if were to have prior to these election and will be watching as they do? let's sign con guest. so at this point and side biology kit on boxy and survosity the scoop to and thank you to for watching. you can see the show again, any time by visiting our website, how to 0, don't com. for further discussion head over to on facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside story can also join the conversation on x, our hands, barry's at a j. inside story. from me, sammy's i, that on the whole team here for now is provide

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