is vulnerable in grooves in these riddles. relentless wore across this trip from the heart of the story as well as a still own government with its escalation on the ground. so between the areas that supports the be a few minutes, our insights it's the biggest prisoner swap between russia and the west since the cold war, despite the worst possibility in modern times because of the invasion of ukraine. how was the deal done? why did it happen? now and could better relations follow. this is inside story, the hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much of june the exchange of 26 prisoners between russia, belarus and the west had echoes of the cold war. plains flying from east and west

for a hand overrun, de boone, on correct. but nothing quite like this has been seen before, both in scale and complexity. months of diplomatic negotiations took place and made intense secrecy. a feat in itself, especially in a deal to exchange so many people, even more so with dozens of officials and agents, as well as the leaders of russia and the us directly involved all this while russia wages, warren ukraine, facing western and us weapons sanctions. and what moscow says is a proxy war with nato. so how was the steel pulled off? how complicated was it? and could i give hope for a foreign relations between russia and the west? we'll be discussing all of this with our guest shortly. but 1st, this report from victoria gate and b, the we us marine wheeling steps on to home. so we left in any sick. she is in a russian prison. also freed in one of the biggest prisoner exchanges with russia since the cold war. evan desk of it to report the st general and l. c. q machine,

an editor, a radio for your getting off the plane, seeing the president. that was nice. there's a good homecoming. so looking forward to seeing my family down here and just recuperating from 5 years, 7 months, and 5 days of absolute nonsense for the russian government, the 3 americans were among 16 prisoners. russia released in exchange for 8 russians held in the us new way. poland gemini and slovenia, published calling this against repeating itself very difficult to last chance. most ago, president vladimir putin gave a hero's welcome to the free detainees among them, assess invalid increased costs, who was released by germany. i want to congratulate you all on your return to your

mother land, and i want to address those of you who are directly related to military service and want to thank you for your loyalty to your own and to your duty. chronicles was convicted of murder in 2021 for killing a form of chechen rebel in berlin. in return jimmy, welcome time 5 of its citizens from russia. a moment to all, this is a special moment which surely intensifies the friendship between the us and germany . it is also a sign of reciprocal readiness to do something out of common tradition as a nation under the rule of low as democracies and also free societies and size. a divide and administration says, the exchange is a win, some multilateralism and diplomacy salute. and it's seen as a diplomatic when a cheap, despite the historic low in relations with the west because of it's more in ukraine . victoria gates in b algae, 0 the inside story. all

right, let's go ahead and bring in our guess from moscow we're joined by dimitry. bob, it's a political analyst for sputnik international who is agency in boston is glen carl, a former c, i a official and former deputy national intelligence officer for trans national threats at the national intelligence council. and in berlin is steven or lender, the chief diplomatic correspondent for europe at the new york times. thanks so much for joining us today. a warm welcome to you while we appreciate your time, steven. let me start with you today. we've heard us presidential by and repeatedly, think germany and slovenia and talked about how difficult it was for them to sign on to this swap. germany, we know didn't want to release him. crossteck off who had been convicted of murder and 2021 for killing a former chechen rebels in berlin. at the end of the day did getting this all done hinge on germany and slovenia. and how did vitamin go about convincing that it? well, i think that the hidden john, germany especially because couldn't have laid it very clear even to tucker carl

something but it was crossing calls but he wanted, i mean from former k g b continuing perhaps could you be feels loyalty to his officers cross the costs though, originally russia denied, but he was killing this guy on state orders. clearly he was, and we wanted him back partly to show loyalties um to his officers. they do the same with the people who tried to kill streets. all mean there's a loyalty though, so that i think was, was the key man involved, and of course germany has its own laws um all i've sold. so i think did this for joe biden. um, it was a very difficult thing. the original deal would have involve the volley, which germany really, really wanted one of all the died, whether from natural causes or whether she was actually murdered. i don't think

we'll ever know. germany cooled on this because it wasn't getting enough out of the deal for itself. but um, in the end, schultz agreed to go along. he got some german prisoners out of out of bell a ruse. and also there were a russian descendants who were released from prison who came out with gaskets. so in the end, i think it was mostly about germany, those slovenia had captured, to soviet sleeper agents. and apparently when the daughters of these agents arrived in russia only on the plain did they know that they were actually russian. they thought they were spanish. so interesting little element to the whole sleeper agent tail glen. i saw you reacting when stephen was talking about how involved they were supposed to have been involved in the swamp.

originally, it looked like you wanted to jump into the conversation. please go ahead, as well as it is this kind of exchange here usually does involve people or individuals of broadly what is assessed to the equivalent significance, whether it's political intelligence or public. so deval need is the, the, the most prominent individual who was an opposed proposition figure was really using the baby to feel the and to the russian intelligence officer in germany. where is the most significant individual afloat where at present being held by western countries. so is that his death and mysterious death? the complicated is this even said, the entire issue that you always get into

a call when is present is the, the problem of potential moral hazard. if you make a deal, then you encourage further detentions, and it's a subjective decision that a political leader has to make the and it goes on all the time my 1st assignment 40 years ago, or was that are quite similar situation, except this was dealing with his boy, in a ran, who had a kidnapped the, the head of the see what are the ca offers and 11 on in the early mid 19 eighties, expressed lots of pressure and had to leverage against the united states. and that's, that's what fundamentally is happened here. so it always cuts both ways, a decision to make a deal. and you, you lose and encourage bad behavior by making the deal. and yet, the fundamentally the decision to a free people who are and justly held at the cost of allowing the freedom of

someone who is in this instance assassin, somebody and others who are intelligence officers. and it's always a subjective decision. but the west school inclined to try to freeze those who are innocent and let those who are guilty go is dimitri. uh, you heard stephen a few moments ago. talk about the fact that uh by the impressive cause perhaps was the key man. and in these very complicated negotiations, um, what russia have agreed to this swamp? if germany hadn't released him, was that the most important element of all this for russian president vladimir put oh, we don't know the christine to. oh, yes, my name is lee and that was an important feeder, and i think we need to tell the story to you because the media just mentioned that

she killed these. so what changed from florida, as they say genuine conversely attention was i don't, didn't see to the, um, the whole story was more to be gave. it kind of, it should be, it was in the numerous matters. you know, there was an attack against nothing except the whole with rush. i thought it was a buffet sheet. yeah. paint dissolve before in june 2004. so conroe police member killed. you know, they have their rebels and the uh, the both the well addressed as police man solely sold the police cars and the deal anymore. ready in any way connected to the warranty was, you know, the police know many trees. several people were killed. the insurance information is all, uh there were uh that was the page that she wasn't able to also be in that there is that back on multiple metro and of course that was very well approved. they will

document that that would be doable. so here we way of the technical service shopping by science. you probably remember the biggest cost each day. you can choose 3 and then get back to find the upside to several products. we met the children, which is the embassy at the consultant. i chose that man deserve to be jail. i am sure about that. but unfortunately drove me away when you all the rest and breakfast, they would not cooperate with the rush. suddenly they would not cooperating to solve the main key so busily and the decision to make the date. and the speed was the only way that just wouldn't be the, i'm sorry, you know, i mean train me through the observer student multiple compared to israel section in the new level of them, i think is dimitri. let me just ask you to go to what these are. i'm sorry to interrupt, but let me just ask you, this is how,

how is all this being perceived in russia? what is the reaction been thus far? and what do you think it will continue to be to well the reaction is very important to. busy people who a, to be frank with you are, i'm happy about the you, my dear, let me try and create that while we, when i don't know if the worst part of the i did for the trial very offensively about the i don't think it would make sense for us to keep these people engaged with this, feed them for 16 years. so whatever the, this will be said that, you know what even cut off was that she didn't want to leave when you're actually the fuel system. so american c, charlie green thought she said terrible things about. gotcha. she called for sanctions against brush the case because that's the name of the states. so i think the general feeling, she just really, you know, uh these children are, i have to protect the, just even though it just, uh they were not spanish just hit the,

these 2 people were arguing junior citizens and their children cell phones. so not the teacher, and yes, we just said they all they done, but they were actually children over options better on their way back to multiple. oh, so basically i think that defeated in russia is a little bit too often used to go to service as a beast. what signal some kind of improvement, but relations with me in the west. i don't think that would be the case, but one of the relations between special services have a, it's a separate story and all the biggest was that took place in that you need to fire the police before the full before the full before the destroy the simulations so i would not want to much cool with this, but from a human point give you, well, that's what steps supported. you know, these people uh they, they should not be. they should be at the things with their ropes. stephen,

i saw you kind of reacting to one of the points that glen was making earlier when he was talking, but perhaps unintended consequences of these types of deals. i wanted to, to drill down on that point, would you? because the critics of vitamin fruit and say that he arrest foreigners and russia for minor offenses or for concocted charges in order to later on use them for leverage at the end of the day is one of the key takeaways from the swap. going to be that hostage diplomacy works. what does that mean going forward? because there are those who say that when deals like this happen, that, that could encourage more hostage taking by photos of the us and other western countries for a moment. this isn't the 1st time this has happened and russia isn't the 1st country to have ever done this. iran is doing it, even as we speak. they did a deal with belgium recently. it's a gets a convicted intelligence agent posing as a diplomatic,

tried to kill people's decisions in paris was convicted and he got traded for a belgian that iran just grabbed off the streets. north street has done something similar. and of course, there were a big spotted trades in the past with the soviet union. it's much as much as demetrius says, i remember when shar on skew is i never thought as 5. but when he was released over the gland key bridge, i mean these things have happened in the past. it says it's an auction almost like a slow. ready auction, it's a very ugly business, but in general, in the past it has been inspired for spy or big defendant for us by i mean, but putting has, as he's often done, brought this to a different levels when he traded brittany and greiner the american basketball star, who was caught with some marks, you know,

a very modest amount of drugs in her suitcase for victor foods at arden's dealer that he'd wanted to get out of jail for a really, really long time. i mean it's, it's a trade, it's, it's, it's not the main, but it does create more moral hazard. but joe biden, i think he was asked about this early this morning and, and he simply said, look, my job is to try to get innocent people home and i do what i need to do to glen. i'm you heard stephen there, talk about job. i'm saying i needed to do what needed to be done basically from your perspective was biting better at pulling this off. and then other us presidents or other administrations would have been i think that's a fair statement. yes. certainly his supporters have been making this point since the exchange was made public,

but i think it was factual incorrect in my lifetime is there are 2 presidents. you stand out for their experience in the international relations and frankly in the functioning of governments. and they are the 1st president bush and joe biden, and there was a lot to be had a lot to be said for the experience of us. they had been diligence and intelligence and capability and so on. but the present button does know the car doors of international power and diplomacy. and i think that that was significant in making this possible. yes, steven, let me follow up with you on that point too, because the white house continues to harold, this swap as a feat of diplomacy and a feat of friendship. one that shows the importance of strong alliances. how big of a diplomatic, when is this for, for bite, and then his administration,

how much skill does it take to pull something like this off? a while it was all very delicate, partly because it involves. so many countries and, and united states was trying to get back to american citizen. and those poll wayland and guess give it to plus others, but who it, with very little to trade for them. i mean, the person, as we've said that a lot of my put it wanted was in german hands, was in a german jail. so making it work for the germans, and for this living ends and for everybody else, was a delicate diplomatic dance, particularly once no vol. need died. i think it's also true that put in then by the have this on kind of relationship, i think on these issues there is an element of trust buttons, not unpredictable. the way president trump has often been and i think putting felt he could rely on them. i think there's also one other factor. all of

schultz is very close to by and i think he was willing to do this for binding. and it's not fair to me, he would have done it for any other american presidents or dimitry. is there any sense in russia that this swap might help reset all the antagonism that exists between the us and russia or, or is where is the feeling of this is simply just a one time deal. oh, there are some, oh, goodness will say that for these signal i go into relations before because the rush it did not want the the so role with the west. that's where i mean, right now, if you look at the origin, why over here to use uh, uh, drones and nauseous, you know, why would he have? i mean the games in 2015 wherever to see if i have of the, the mold copying, brushing a 1000 d t c. and this one will be raises with the, with the what does a plan of the rest of the leap was to integrate with the work and do enjoy the

fruits of western civilization. unfortunately, it was not the super beat uh and the realist in russia said that, no, this is something that we really tried to call the well. and she already agree with steve. oh and great. so not any business, but this is just about as smart as you can have when you have a pool. at least you have a p g for an individual. it's, you know, this time it was on a quote. uh it was, uh, you know, we went back age people that were what back to turn small. 16 people about the i think so it's very important that people are with the fence and that's why i know i no longer really because you know, the person in jail for 16 years and it's really nice. he's all right. so uh,

the address is 34 digit football this uh, it's like, uh, you know, uh and why it ends up in the office. it does mean that the, uh, we are going to try to do it in the near future. but it shows that in the midst, over all the basic stuff barricaded with the, with their operate, the magic forces that i'm pregnant, people, there is still some communication between the special services and the all this may, this is steve and i saw your reaction some what dimitry was saying, did you want to add to the point he was making? well, i don't think this is a dawn of a great relationship, but i do think it has been very clear since russia invited ukraine in a big way a couple of years ago. now that in russia, it has turned its back on relations with the west. now, dimitri argues it was done the other way around. this is

a russian narrative. i'm not gonna argue with it. but the fact of the matter is, i think both sides understand that there's going to be a period of chills and russia has, has defended the war crane as a defensive war against western expansions. and it has created new relationships with china and iran. and it seems very fun, interested, frankly, in better relations with the west. and this will be true, i think so long is a lot of are putting the remains of the chief of all the rushes he's, he's the volume he's the boss. and as long as he's the volume just i don't think relations are going to improve very much glen, what do you say on this issue? american officials of course, have insisted that the swap in no way hands at any time between washington and moscow. what's your take on all this if that's true,

but i think i might be slightly more optimistic the or not leave the then the symmetry or for us, even steven, on this point. the meaning that uh, i don't see it. we are in a, a cold for a week. it's a, have been for, for years and the tension this will not improve. relations however, argue this is more likely than not a, or a signal from the moscow. there have been to the just nascent the indications of, from, from dr. you're approved in the that he's no longer taking the ultra position on the ukraine, which would mean it's destruction or the death sort of thing. not seen jewish leaders and all the other forces as his the possibilities become more limited

there in still making sure that i'm more likely the use to have started to see a piece of proposal coming from las golf for the 1st time. and this will not this, the prisoner exchange will not lead to a moment to, for happiness and are on time between the 2 sides. but the, i take it is the beginnings of an indication that sometime in the future there is a must go word except some kind of, uh, negotiated solution. but just the very, very beginning. i don't think this would have happened, had a moscow not desired to change the, the current to the chessboard and dynamic including i also just want to talk for a couple of minutes with you about the, the complicated logistics of all of this. i mean, how difficult was this to pull off?

i mean, what sets it apart from other prisoners wants in the past, and how much have to go right in order for this to happen as well, you and, and tell, in an intelligence operation. if the or the secret city is penetrated, then the operation often will have to be softer, won't go off the rails. in the instance of a prisoner experience, that is not necessarily as true. because the making of public making negotiations public does not necessarily have to do the work towards a certain objective, but however, it's always better in any negotiation to keeps endings are discrete because the individuals like my 2 colleagues, john talking to the interview here. we'll write stories about it and, and then complicates the homework of the all parties involved. and then it goes usually because they're always conflicting objectives. yeah. and interest groups

within the government, outside the government, across governments and so on. and so keeping it secret up until the point of resolution is, is always better from a government officials perspective. uh and to, since you have multiple parties involved in this, the, the risk of something actually leaking or our explanation. we are the but it's, it's always better to be discrete until you can reach an agreement with the party you're negotiating with the same. and we only have about a minute left. um, from your perspective did the both of us and rush to get what they wanted most out of the swap or um, is there the perception that one side walked away with more of what they saw? no i, i think this was an well negotiated deal. i mean, i don't think the germans got what they might have wanted with novel need, but i think for the 2 big powers this, this worked out well. and i'm also hopeful, but glenn is right. i mean, i think the ukraine war seems to be heading toward

a form of stalemate, and there will be negotiations only, i believe one's a lot of improvement besides has gotten as much as you train as he's capable of, of getting. so this may signal a new interest in the talks. i hope that's true and i hope we can bring that killing to an end. all right, well we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guests to meet you babbage, when carl and steven or lender, and thank you to for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. challenges here at com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash age and side story. you can also, during the conversation on x r handle is at a inside story for me and how much i'm drilling a whole team here. bye for now. the

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