it by the arabs, and that's my view legitimize justified cleansing arabs from palestine. the hutus that exactly the same thing about maybe food in 1990 israel is committed in numerous of all crimes. since that i'm also friends on the type of stuff. i'm fairly sure that'd be fine. the toward itself is not. it was fine. had to head on out to sierra days of variety and england and belfast social media has been used by the far right to spread rumors about immigrants and organized protests that have become 5 thousands of police officers are on alert. so what's behind the surgeon? find this is inside start the hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much i'm john. thousands of police

officers are on high alert in the u. k. after writing and cities and towns in england and in belfast. the violence has been blamed by prime minister care storm are on far right. activists and groups organizing themselves online individuals rather than organizations seem to have been driving the protests, almost all focused around migrants, mosques have also been targeted. migration has been a leading topic in politics and media in the u. k for several decades. with some newspapers and politicians carving out a hard line stance. the last conservative government had planned to deport illegal migrants to were wanting to a plan dropped by the new labor one. so why has there been such a wide spread and sudden upsurge in violence and how have politics and media affected attitudes on migration? we'll be discussing this with our guest shortly. but 1st this report from victoria again, be riots by phone, right? participants and spread across the u. k stopped by a series of motors in a seaside town and north west of england. 3 goes age 67 and $9.00 was step to death

and the noise to attack the children's dense class in southport. police arrested a 17 year old boy who was born in person, but uses on social media falsely claimed he was a muslim asylum seeker newly elected reform, and pe, nigel farrell is, was criticized to speculating whether in his words the truth was being withheld. file source, he's a most can south for was attacked by a fall, right, more local communities are being thrown apart. and these people from outside are coming in and literally just destroying the mosque. and we spoke into the a mom from south port. he said he had to barge a look himself inside the office. so there's other members who were in the mosque at the time. they were afraid the door was going to be broken down. in the days that followed the riot spread hotly. pool in the northeast of england, the police call with satellites. and in london,

crowds pelted the gates of downing street and with police surfaces that prompted the prime minister to hold an emergency meeting with the police to suppose to colorado is because this is to my to receive a deliberate. this is not to protest that this got out of hand. it is a group of individuals. so her opposite depends on violence. but despite government warnings, disorder has persisted. in nursing him offices were confronted by falls. right? protested in holla, crowd demonstrated outside a hotel housing migraines and just sold a bro couch in belfast campaign is opposing racism sent out on the streets saying those spreading hate emission information must be stopped before the people in the fifty's before the 7 days in britain. we will not allow the right way to them and i will, i can talk you really and we were the

only a month after being elected. the new labor government is facing a national crisis and the prime minister and home secretary are having to focus on stopping violence across the streets of the united kingdom, victoria gates and b l g 0 for inside story. the. all right, let's go ahead and bring in our guests. joining us for london is shopping that big them chief executive officer of the running me trust. a british race equality and civil rights. think tank in oxford. katie brown is a post doctoral fellow at my new university in ireland. she focuses her research on mainstream far right discourse, also in london. so on. this is a, is a computational social scientist interested in the links between this information and political extremism. a warm welcome to you all, and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story shopping that let me start

with you today. all of these riots, all of this violence, this is all interrupted so quickly. why has there been such a wide spread and relatively sudden upsurge and violence? i don't think i just say it has been an outbreak of widens, but i think it's fun surprising given that the long lineage fall anti immigrants is not a very big team. and our vision that we've seen in all mainstream politics now, but the thing is particularly intensifying in, in the last few weeks and months of students alternative 7 with gaza and what's been happening now. and then with the general reaction campaign by june of so that's the kind of narrative that result being espoused by all mainstream political parties. the trading in insults around within communities, has become a qual, moving ised by all mainstream political policies. so it is on surprising when you

see such a hostile environment created by a politician that, that they have boss on, on the streets in the way you have done. over the last few days katie, i saw you reacting quite a bit to a shop and it was saying that it looked like and wanted to jump in. so please go ahead. oh, yeah, no, i just okay. workshop. noah's saying mainly because we've witnessed with the election campaign and not she long predating that, we've breaks it as well. the normalization of anti migration disclose is not just from the far right, but from the main stream within the tory party and the labor party as well. i'm at these protests but being steins, that's a start to base. and that's a direct quote from the previous conservative government. and then you got labor coming in. now they did scrap they were when the policy, as you mentioned, but they did that often kind of claiming that it was because the policy was

ineffective. they way and challenging the premise of the principle of that. i mean that could treat it back in the host of the secure the security of britain's board is, is the top priority as well. so we've seen a continuation of this and violent rhetoric from the main stream, and that's played a key role in emboldening these actors and creating the atmosphere that we're seeing in britain that the maintenance or something that let me ask you to pick up on a point you were making and also a point that katie was making just now when it comes to this rhetoric that is demonizing of migrants and migration. when you hear a top tier politicians in the u. k saying stop the boats are talking about invasions going on at the border. first of all, how different is that from what you were hearing from politicians just a decade ago. the fact that this is all being normalized, but also how much does that impact this kind of anti migration sentiment throughout

society? yeah, i think you're right to say that there has been a market shift in the, you know, just schools. and that we have the been in the last 2 years with a previous government, a built escalation of that kind of style narrative, particularly kind of as it was the creation of don barnum policies. so we've seen a real activation and an escalation of some of those narratives. i'm not legit to mind. is that kind of demonized asian of my friends, but i think it's really important and that we will say that if it's not the, the, the bonnet that we've seen in the last few days hasn't been just directed to my friend has been directed to support that towards muslim communities as, sorry, it's mocks back and talking to people of color. black and brown could be targeted by this barn is. so, you know, it's really important that we don't just kind of locate to as part of the immigrant

narrative to ask him good. now to has always been racialized and that has, we've seen that kind of spill out into the barn and, and the way that, that bar that says targeted, not just margaret community is not just people seeking us out of this country that, that sort of midland communities as a black people have been, some of the videos that we've seen circulates to social media search, this is jaime racialized and acts of basic rights. and that was even offered so hard to kind of continue with the theme that shrapnel was talking about there. you know, mr. misinformation around all this for spent online that the suspect in the murder of these girls was muslim immigrants in the far right groups. false explained, the suspect was an asylum seeker, how much of a role, how social media played in driving all of this and fueling these riots in having an impact when it comes to the violence or c. um yeah, thank you for having me as

a split, a huge role. i think um, you can see it from the, from the very beginning when um these uh time getting uh new sites that basically do nothing but uh put out and verify the um mostly and verified information. um, spell the name of the fake name of this um a your, the asylum seeker, a person. and that began spreading around and basically directing what had already been building up for months in terms of a timeless limb and time of it and propaganda towards a specific event. you know, focusing people the series on to that. and yeah, that the, the incentives now are probably worse than ever because of the, the monetization and they'll pack the combination of the money, monetization, ideal price of the surrounding, monetization and surrounding in identities and, and being able to track what's, what's behind what um,

there are many accounts that are behind those that, that are spending a bit of information around this that were supposedly created a long time ago. and just then just scrub and renamed and they've been, yeah, the spreading more information around this. and yeah, that's sort of thing a katie, um let me ask you, what was the scale of it from your vantage point of the missing information online and, and from your vantage point also, how much has social media driven anti immigrant sentiment driven? you know, our fuel these demonstrations thus far as well. i think clearly it has played a role and it also has a space full of the spreading of this information and a grade levels. and it also gives an organizing space for these groups as well as a social media is important. but i think the danger also in a for emphasizing the role upstairs,

shall need you in this and attracting attention away from some of the issues that shop noah's raising. around the role of the politicians, political parties, traditional media as well. they all play the role in creating this political atmosphere. and so i think, yes, we can talk about the role of social media um, but i think the, we need to, to look at this in a more rounded fashion and the kinds of narratives that being portfolio with. and by those who we see on television, screens in the newspapers and the way that they're talking about these issues as well. okay, let me ask you more about that. i mean, how much has the way that migration is discussed in the media outlets throughout the government? how much has that changed in recent years? just well, i mean, i've gotten, it was kind of touching on similar points to,

to worship. know, is saying that has been this escalation around it. and we've seen in getting the case here, for instance, when the, with the, we're talking about the pastor traits or the talk, the bbc referred to him as born in wales to rewind and parents. now what's the purpose of referring to his lineage, other than to feed into these kind of other ring narrative as well. and so we do need to look at the traditional media and political parties of government as well. and, and that role shopping. i saw you reacting just now to what katie was saying, look like you wanted to add to that. go ahead. yeah, i think we're often led to believe this idea, but it's a both democratized sense that politicians would be asking to kind of legitimate grievances and kind of this idea of popular concerns. the writing brought naturally

and we'll get it to the. but actually, what we do know is that exactly a case of just dislike the traditional media and mainstream politicians are actively responsible for crossing immediately to the messaging on this and where they have been on this particular incident. but oh, broadly, how they have talked about immigration, how they have told about muslims have created the profit. but i'm talking consistent, but loaded environments to occur. so when politicians turn around and talk about being surprised and shocked environments and incidentally, but really important to me not being else quoted out to being a racist writing in, in any times that i've seen so far when they're expecting that, that best sadness and then grants and then action, releasing all of these issues, what they need to be aware of is their role,

their responsibility. and they're called betting creation back pocket environment for these barnes. and we're talking about levels of bonds that we haven't steven off street in decades. the kind of gone is that my parents would have been exposed to the back of the 1960 and the 19 seventy's, but which is now being pays out on the streets town, cities across the u. k. and that current just be put down, submit the information on the online spaces with talking about the politics that's coming out of the u. k. parliament and which is being reported in ox, additional stablished media. so how do i know that in this discussion we're going beyond just the misinformation that's being put out there on online platforms. but i do want to go back to it for a moment and ask you a couple of questions pertaining to that. first of all, are there concrete steps that can be taken to counteract this kind of misinformation that, that spread so quickly? it spreads like wildfire online and it's so what is it that can be done?

one thing more. uh, more transparency. um, like preventing uh crowns from just being a scrum without any um, definitely tracing and being reused for propaganda. um in more, more technically i guess it would be introducing some kind of uh, friction um perhaps and collaboration would like to crowd sourcing. um, of fact checking, and just generally making sure that something that is, that is spreading uh too fast has a little has the brakes pulled on a little bit so that people who have the, who have we're interested in the truth can, didn't get to it before um, before it starts getting into the monetization cycle of the far right. so let me also ask you, um, how organized are the efforts of these far right extremist groups? i mean how, how centralized are they? um, and if most of this is being fueled online and through social media platforms, how difficult does that make it to,

to track these kinds of groups and to track their activities it seems mostly leaderless. that's just kind of every, every person for themselves. um, the, the, the, as i said, the incentives are really good for getting people to just put on whatever catches the most eyeballs, get to the most attention there, there is some possible evidence of collusion among accounts. there are several accounts that suspiciously read, which i read for you to each other or repose each other at a suspicious the close intervals. so there there's some, on some level there are some collaboration but um, possibly even the same people doing it, but yeah, on overall is mostly the most me meet or less. um. yeah. it's katie, um, let me ask you to examine the different aspect of all this. i mean has political leadership in the u. k. been leading or has it been following a narrative,

shaped by this anti immigrant faction that we've seen in politics and media loving. mean, all these questions we have to think about the relative power that people have, say, you know, people ingles and then have the power to shape narratives um, around these issues. and, and so when, when we look at this often there's this idea that you know, that being led by popular sentiment. but actually the ones who have the media access in a, in a number of cases. and we've seen them push until immigration politics. so for instance, that where i, my colleagues are really alone during the winter and they look to and people's perceptions around the issues the most important to them in that day to day lives. and then day to day lives. immigration did not

a feat to haile oh that. 2 was the same question on the country level, and that's where the immigration featured hire. now, was people get these ideas from if it, if it doesn't affect you in your day to day life. and then how are you getting this information? and that's why we need to look at political lead is traditional need you to see that responsibility in normalizing this kind of exclusionary racist politics. so can you let me ask you that? i mean, what do you think are the steps that could be taken to actually start combating this a? well, let's say that is a very tough question that, i mean, i think a starting point is actually putting forward alternative narratives we've seen. and the politicians a paddling the same kinds is on to most of them and seeing the gratian, racist narratives. and as far right groups and you don't beat the fall right by becoming them. so we need to see progressive alternatives that deal with the issues

that are important to people in the day to day lives, like the cost of living crisis, education and a health and other issues like that. so, you know, trying to beat the fall right on it certain times, but actually putting for with progressive alternatives that, that helps people in that day to day hides. so on, i saw you are reacting there to what katie was saying. look like you wanted to jump in and add to the point she was making. so please go ahead. yeah, absolutely. the, the narrative it has um and inserting information ecosystems has definitely shifted in a, in a very destructive way. and i think it's important to also not just look at like, how can we, you know, attempt to not look at actually how we can just send sort of the social media. we

should look at how we can actually fix the problem is that people are facing really um, you know and improve the improve people's lives and get people a better narrative to look towards. um yeah, i agree shop that looked like you also wanted to add to that to please go ahead. yeah, i'd agree with the sentiments expressed that we state already of the politics developed over the last few years. we started to deal with the bill issues confronting people in that day to day lives. and i think we need to see a real shift and i'll call a text and we need to see will tend to provide the narrative as katie describes them. and i think we need to fall off typically to 6 that their responsibility, that based on the agenda, the how these events operating, how they translate into how people experience things like immigration, things like the economic hardship, those things about political,

economic choices made by politicians. they are by no means the responsibility of immigrants almost mean communities of color in this country. so i'm not, let me also ask you, um, maybe you're talking about political leadership taking responsibility. this is obviously a massive challenge for your stormers. new government, i mean, is this labor government going to be able to handle this any differently? are you seeing any sign to that as well? absolutely has to have i think we have any real choice. hey, what we're seeing or the last few days can't be allowed to continue. we do needs to be political leadership. we need to see some action which thursday you on just the mount. um, kind of um, attempts to tilt about criminal disorder and february we need to name as racism and racist bias happening. and we that means to take the action that protects community to expose to that hub. but we need to move beyond that as well. and we think we, we need longer term solutions which address the real world that fit into our

politics. where the problem that address the bill issues and to be able to choose. it's casey tools about the ones that, that, that people on that day to day lives, the kind of things that need us to think about how well, what does well distribution of back in this country, housing standards, impacted communities in this country. that conversation that we need to have, but right now brought here and now we need to be thinking about how do we stop by the volume that's going on and protect those communities. the are exposed to the apartments or shopping of the steps that you were talking about taking. i mean, do you think there is the political will right now to actually take those steps? oh, i've got to be honest, i haven't seen very much to indicate that there is not political well, but i think that we have seen communities come together, communities protect each other community. it's a bound to them off to try as opposed to the bar, right. the groups i've gathered outside of them. so i hired to the actually of

political leaders inspired by that and seeing how people and communities kind of come together to oppose fall by racist ideas. and that communities and especially above the cartridge is actually endangered. he answered that they, that they not quite a bit to bunch that katie, how much would you say the media and the way that all this has been reported? has that shaped all of this? so yeah, i think it has the needs. we've seen this focus. i'm on the idea of criminality and that, that brings in the, the sort of response that you're looking at. so i'm starting to set about bringing in a new violent disorder unit. so that's kind of dealing with it through the criminal lens rather than focusing on those long term issues. but the shop now was talking about the way that the political climate has been feeding into this and the whole.

so i've seen in the media how the these activities have been reported on. and then there's also been tool could rival pretty tests and where, and there's always this equivalence between anti racist mobilizations and people who are cutting and vandalizing most attacking people in the street. so we also need to look at the media and the way that they've reported, and the creation of these equipment says, and that could, that distort the nature of these, these different groups. he was a trying to, uh, combat the fall, right as well. and then katie, let me also ask you about what role you think for right media has played in all of this and getting these attitudes out there for mainstream discussion in the last few in the last few decades, you know, more and more. uh, print and tv outlets, online outlets in, in the u. k that are right wing media outlets. how does that impact all this?

yeah, i think they have had an impact. and again, with social media there is a growing profile full of bar, right? media outlets as well, but again, i think our attention can be distracted from the fact that we're seeing least within traditional media as well. you know, a couple of weeks ago the guardian has a, an odd school with former prime minister, tony blair saying that in order to defeat the far right, you need to come to immigration. and these are the kinds of narratives that are being pushed in traditional major as well. so i think sometimes we can be distracted when we're looking to the far right where i'm missing more directly in front of us as well. shop. now we only have a couple of minutes left, but let me just ask you from your perspective right now. i mean, if this isn't dealt with in a, in a constructive way, how concerned are you about where all of this is headed as well?

i'm really concerned even now i think that we're talking about what, what time in the days ahead. i think what was the work now? grand max was born in the community the on to see that huge the concerning. it's something that is a real threat to those communities and had spot be amongst communities outside of the cities and towns where it has directly taken place. so i think it's really important that we, we deal with this as katie said by doing the immediate time. but the longer term, and i'm really back to life how valuable, how faithful date was cut out, and you'd have meeting right now. all right, well, we have run out of time, so we're gonna have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guest shop in the bedroom, katie brown, and so on decision. and thank you for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i'll just you or dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash age and side story. you can also during the conversation on x

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