[000:00:00;00] the the . ringback the he's a wanted man and in hiding yes and war is named the political leader of how much after the assassination of this mountain, honey, with no engine side to israel's war on gaza. what does this mean for ceasefire talks? and well, how about us understand warranty? different, this is inside story,

the hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much i'm joan. how much has a new political leader, your highest and war, described by some is a hard line strategist spend more than 2 decades and is really present and now holds unprecedented power within the movement. his appointment comes a week after the assassination of us value and the intent, ron send wars boys to make crucial decisions on both military operations and diplomatic negotiations is real accuses him of masterminding the october attacks which led to the war on. gotcha. so was sent a wire at the helm. what are the prospects for a cease fire? and how well, how much balance of political and military ambitions? well, they'll deeper into this with our panel of guests. but 1st, this report from actual time of which i have seen was the leader of hamas and gaza, has been chosen as the moments new political liter of his freed assessor's spinal. honey, i was assassinated in the reigning capital last week. you had the sin well was

chosen unanimously, and this shows that the movement is aware of the nature of all the difficulties that it's facing. negotiations were managed by leadership and sin. what was always present seymour's path to leadership is marked by wars. born in a refugee camp in han, eunice he spent 22 years in his really presence before being released in a 2011 prison or exchange, a deal signed by benjamin netanyahu. israel accuses him of masterminding the october attacks on southern is ro and the prime minister describes him as a deadman walking. the international criminal court has sought arrest warrants force and war and other senior hamas officials, as well as for nothing. yeah. when these really defense minister for alleged or crimes, seymour will now represent how mazda negotiations towards a ceasefire. and the release of is really captives is suspected to be hiding in causes extensive network of tunnels, which analysts say could pose

a challenge if he's to approve any potential deal. seeing the wires also at the top of israel's most wanted list, a captive families accused prime minister netanyahu up the railing. detox by assessing any come in the situation is as long and which we need to have significant pressure on everybody. whoever has the brand to accept these terms, get the fish fire down during the exchanges, and move on to the next phase, which is going to be even more complicated to govern power strong. i'm to possibly lead. once these rallies live guys and to lead to a negotiation for a problem in the resolution of the palestine, israel conference seymour's decision will likely shape causes future beyond israel score as a man who has experience displacement, imprisonment and occupation throughout his life, his perspective will be crucially determined come us as path forward access i much

alj a 0 for insight story. all right, let's go ahead and bring in our guests from new york. we're joined by on our roof on a fellow at the middle east council on global affairs. he focuses on middle east, you a politics and american foreign policy, and the region in belfast is professor beverly milton edwards co author of how much the quest for power and a former e u. special advisor to the middle east peace process. and also in new york is norman finkelstein, a political scientist, an activist who specializes in the israeli palestinian conflict. a warm welcome to you all, and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story omar, let me start with you today. the naming of yes and want as the leader of how masses political wing, what is the message that sense as well. first and foremost, i think it is a message of resilience and defiance from the organization that you can kill one leader and there will be

a seamless transition to another. and i think the speed and efficiency in which that happened within a week of the killing of a smell of honey is rather remarkable, especially without a designated successor. but i think it's also, you know, a finger in the eye of these really on october 7th is really about to kill. ready send water and destroy him ass, and here we are 10 months later, despite the full brunt of these really war machine, and boats and water, and how mouse, or alive and kicking, and how he is leading to movement. beverly based on your extensive knowledge of how much was the announcement the yes and why had become, how much is overall liter? was that expected or did that come as a surprise? no, i it's, it's no surprise, really the sitting well hesitating on the mantle of the leadership of the movement role. we need to remember that he's paid up to for to roll, since he was elected as leads across it in 2015,

and his sort of control of the tactics to help the movement achieve its objectives. hasn't been really key to the events that have on the phone. did really since 20202020 long. so it's, it's no surprise really, the same office really sort of endorsement. so if somebody says, determination to continue that aren't on behalf of the palestinian people against me is really occupier. and the narrative has very much scented on, you know, here is yet to not the lead from the people born of the people born in a refugee camp who's experiencing the same kinds of experiences. or was there a occupation on these really seats that everyone else in the westbank, all the stripping east jerusalem is to norman, from your perspective, what do you think all of this will mean for gaza and for the people of guys are

going for i think there are 2 things that need to be kept in mind. number one is real, is no doubt you feel. busy work about the choice of some why? because it's star really. israel has always dreaded most what are called the moderates on the palestinian side. when it launched its attack and left a non in june 1982. the purpose of the attack was to defeat the moderate leadership of the p. o. lo, which at that point was on record supporting a 2 stage settlement in the hope that the modern leadership would be displaced by a quote on the phone radical leadership. and then as well can do as it always wants to, to throw its hands up in despair to pretend there is nobody to negotiate with the same thing happened in 2012 when it's real assassinate i committed. sure,

barry was actually is realism to lock you there. up until that point. we're trying to negotiate a long term ceasefire between israel and how much that was talked at the time. then not only would there be a short term long term ceasefire, and your body was to point man, and israel proceeded to assassinate him. so i do believe that israel is probably elated by this choice because now we can say, how can we possibly negotiate with them? that's the mind of october, 2nd, to the other. the other point i would bear in mind is that the choice of uh, send bar as the leader is a signal that is one of the hallmarks doesn't believe that negotiations are possible with isn't real. and in fact, i think that is a reasonable inference. as in more said in the previous interview,

i guess from 2021 or 2022. he said we tried every thing we tried diplomacy, we try not environment. so what resistance the great march of returned, nothing work. and so the election of the election of some war is a signal that the homicide has, of course, still agree to are short term or long term. they no longer believe there is any possibility of coexistence would be through omar. and look to me like you were reacting to some what norman was saying, so i'll give you a chance to jump in. but i also wanted to ask you to follow up on a point that, that he was making norm. and it said that from his perspective, israel would have been elated now with the appointment of sin war as a political leader. what, what do you think of them to i agree, i think nothing. yahoo has probably a joyous over this appointment at the same time. i mean, there is a flip side to that and that is that nothing? yeah, that was responsible for the assassination of this. i'm gonna have you. yeah. so if

you're an outside observer who was a, you know, looking at penny and the negotiations that we're having in a call to as good faith negotiations that may have led somewhere, then you know, nothing. yeah. who is responsible for the outcome of the killing of negotiator and the set back into those negotiations. and if you're in israel, a has a family member as a hostage there, then you might be upset over that kind of thing that yes and water is the, you know, the boogie man that has been portrayed to these really public. but at the same time, nothing yacht, it was, you know, responsible for his rise as the political leader within him mass as opposed to you know, the, it's not any attempt to figure up beverly. um, let me ask you how well, how about us go about balancing military strategy and political calculations going forward? i mean, what's to be expected? well, i think the, the balance will, will remain pretty much the same. i mean with send while are in charge from gaza. we already know that there's

a determination by the is the non cosign brigades to continue. it's the time it's resistance direct to the axis. route line is really targets and now that's going to take place in the context of huge amounts of phase around regional escalation. as a result of that assassination. a voice mail from the air and to her on the attacks on the 2nd in command of his allah, in lebanon. so i'm in my, in my respect to, it will be pretty much business as, as usual. and the city law will rely on the same sets of trusted lieutenants kilometers from these d knocks on brigade too. he knows well and has worked with intimately in terms of political calculations. yes, i think that's much to agree with on the points from the law norman, regarding the negotiations, i was on the other hand point chance

a couple of things the past is, is that we need to remember that despite everything the israel has said since october, the 7th, it's about yes, yes, in law, he has been key to all of the negotiations that have taken place mediated by congress like cats on egypt, sin salt, co, but the 7th. and that includes the decision backend late november to have those original postage releases in exchange for the document of terry and really for prisoner exchange is really supposed been in business from the west bank so that so that was down to his face. so and his, his voice and his opinion is intrinsic to any kind of decision making in terms of the politics of walt hi, that is next with respect to, to the war. i'm do you know, it's not like same law has an offset truce conditions to me to prime minister

b b s on yahoo! in the past, he did this in 2021. it was revealed in 2022 that he had to return the latch offering, offering those times um, for at least for cease fire is not for the 4 piece with, with this rattle. so both norma and a lot of them are right to sort of point the finger back, so to speak, in terms of the political calculations and political considerations to all the policies. so they're currently engaged in this conflict. and those policies not only include the government of israel, but also include the security and intelligence services the news trials. do we now know of really pushing at mess on yahoo to agree to a c spot deal so that that could be some movement so that they could, may be from b a him to the political horizon. but of course, working against spots as well as whether or not from the extent to which the bike

and ministration in the us will apply any leverage what the web up phone be be next on yahoo to progress these tools. norman looked at me as though you wanted to add to what beverly was saying there if so please go ahead a hi enter the can be used in my remarks. sorry sir, that of course this, this in wire is going to work towards a ceasefire. a guy, so and hopefully a long turn cease fire and go so however, what i had in mind in my remarks, loose to say that there was at least a hold held out, that'd be on a ceasefire. there wouldn't be a possibility for some longer for resolution. there's not a permanent resolution of the counselor mr. some wires and perfectly intelligent person and he knows full well that is will never agree to. ringback not just be be

nothing. yeah. how, but the entire, it's fairly state and society. they, we've never agreed to a long term ceasefire and peaceful coexistence with sinew. are as the head of stage or hands off on boss and effectively head of state in gods. and by um, i wanna say to him, to his new position, i'm not saying he was wrong in his conclusions. i think that's a perfectly compelling case that you cannot negotiate with israel. just like as little as herman to come hell or high water to go to more with the red and then select a colossal military defeat on it, including the possible use of nuclear weapons. i don't believe it's possible to engage it with a or g. i'm a peaceful coexistence with the state of israel based,

and that's current incarnation. and so one of the elevators and warrenson war understood himself that when i achieved this stuff is it means there's no possibility of a peaceful coexistence long term with israel. because i, meaning certain mar are recognize, they will never agree to that with me as the head of state. i'm the mastermind of october 7th, and in fact they're, you for rick, the prospect they have nobody to negotiate with. and therefore, they have to use what is the only weapon in there are so know the weapon of force, the is reality using the last are fun. let's say. the only language arts of this is

the arabs. it'd be fine with you for us. and in fact, that's a projection the only our language is rollings, understand is uh, the language of for us, i guess some ad that she is real if force doesn't work, use more force. that's entirely, unfortunately, omar, you heard beverly a few minutes ago talking about how crucial send war was up until now in the negotiating process. so when it comes to the talks are running a potential ceasefire. um, i want to ask you, how much was he involved in the negotiations up until now? did he always have final say, i mean, it's difficult to know fully. uh, you know, the, the, the balance in that room in terms of decision making. but at the end of the day, the hostages are being held in god, not in contact with the negotiations were taking place. you know, the fighting is being done in gaza. and i mean, we have to understand that,

you know, the, the most defining decision made by a mass leader and a. ready long time was the decision to move forward with the october 7th attack. that was a decision, as far as we know, that was made by the leadership within god's us and why being one of them and not by honey and kind of in the shot necessarily in caught up. so i think the decision making is happening there and they have more leverage in and what decision is ultimately made. so beverly, all my, there was talking about the divisions between, you know, how much leadership and guys, or how much leadership outside of guys are. let me ask you, is there now more of a separation between how much leaders that are inside garza and those outside causes is that take leverage away from those leaders who are outside of gaza. you know, i think the balance of power, if you want to call it that is the same as it ever has been. and this has been part of the challenge for israel,

which is always whether it was against the p o or the all the elements, the policy and national movements have always sold to use the strategy of divide and rule. and they, they've always found this like, oh, my simply impossible with how much that, how much leadership so how much you know prides itself along having a very so the strict lines of communication decision making is, jointly may to know why the individual will come out to out power, another individual when it comes to these kinds of crucial decisions about the objectives and or tactics. so i don't really see that there's going to be much of a of a difference because the leadership outside fully understand and appreciate everything . but people in jobs are the, the 2300000 people who are living on suffering and golf of ongoing for. so they

believe it's important to remains that foss, it's important to remain to, to maintain unity and in the right side to really see that, that's going to be any difference in that. well, i would like to remind everybody is this, but you know, in one sense if there is a d o send, one will be t in the monitoring and verification of that deal as he was back in november when it's really not the nationalities was released from the custody of my son of the palestinian on the great thing in gaza. so on the one hand, whether israel likes it or not, they might prefer as a deal was a chief to have some d like send while, who has a track record for, for keeping to his was maintaining those moments of, of verification, of such deals as, as is agree better than somebody else who's, who's much more of a long known entity. beverly, let me also just ask you, if you're talking about the, the, the possibilities or the steps that might be taken to try to achieve

a deal. so are we know, is it the top of israel's hit list they, they set as much several times. i mean, how does it work in a negotiation? intox if how if he is now the lead negotiator because in the past, depending no matter how much one person or another, uh you don't have final say, you still have somebody like me as an interlocutor for mediators. how does it work? now? what do we need to understand that this more than just 10 there's more than just saying while lead leading to the negotiations. so was teasing in golf. so sometimes communications with golf. so have, has been difficult to have been delayed by can and do hall sitting while will rely on assess a very experienced leaders and then to look to is a lending please kindly, michelle mussa up of mazda kelly, allow high of all of whom have again been playing

a very important role in co ordinating positions, discussing positions, looking at is ready proposals, looking at well from the on the table. i'm trying to make decision is trying to draw red lines, trying to understand where and how they can make compromises. which in, in an environment which of course is very volatile and subject to all sorts of very few my precious. so, i mean in that respect again, he's no, you know, he's not the only pass on that that the most sides um, the most athlete of share and c i a and the category. uh, media cuz uh i'll talking to him about that. we need to be very clear about we need to understand that these are groups of people who are engaged in very delicate processes of both negotiation with is not the police. you're an actor on the side and both can be accused of supporting actions. both can be accused of failing to

engage in confidence, building measures, offering hope, and then taking it to work and that, you know, at the last minute it's a mouthful i spoke to the family. so of is there any hostages, and those about the nationalities has been held in garza for the last 10 months, as it drops to the millions of palestinians who are suffering and goss. i'm counting the, the dead, whether the women and children as, as, as well as the elderly omar i saw you are reacting just now to beverly was saying, look like you want us to jump in again. so please go ahead. no, i think she outlined it perfectly, but i was just gonna say that, you know, how mouse is not an organization of one manual and that you know, being the political head of having us so ours, not necessarily you know, just and, and negotiate or he has i'm sure emissaries and as empowered a political, another sort of leaders that are really based on call talk to, to do those type of things, whether he's making, you know, decisions or ultimate decisions or his empowered people. i mean,

that's the way the organization is structured. so i wouldn't say, you know, every word is going to be conveyed to it is in war and god. and it has to go through those logistical hurdles. norman, um, if we could just take a step back for a moment and maybe you could just go common. sure. go ahead. um, i don't, i don't like to sound like a cassandra. as beverly has said, several times, the suffering of the people because it was on speak about, it's horrendous and as many as people like so lead loves are really the heads of on are, are, and then the others have said they have exhausted the vocabulary of the english language in order to describe what has be cell has befallen godsa. and i don't want any way to add to the business there that has already sunk

in. but i think there are some this out for you mention here. there is no possibility of negotiations. laws, and from all sides, it will recognize that once the assassination of time, the end of the valuation on soon more was a statement, we have come to the conclusion. there is no possibility of negotiating, but news real. let's be clear and be close to the factual record then documentary record disappear is before i use in the book in the blink of a 9 not to know who's made clear that he's against any. busy she ations, which might lead to a permanent ceasefire. he said, and the entire israel, the leadership agrees, we will agree to a temporary cease fire. and once the hostages are released,

then we continue until moss is not related and denial. lation of the palm, us affectively means quite a few times separate and small to build the chinese communist leader use the site. you can separate the fish from the walk for the 911 sion of palm os. affectively means there's no installation of gossip as the israel leaves like to say, from make god's uninhabitable and livable so that the population by spoke or by crook knew gradually from the out of garza. the numbers now are between 800300004 garza's sub already found their way into egypt. and this really expectation is that we may cause a livable,

which they effectively have. in my opinion. the estimates are it will take 10 or 15 years just to clear out the rumble from concept, let alone begin the reconstruction of gossip, the population, well and the yeah. and so this talk of any kind of negotiations, in my opinion, is beside the point because israel has made clear it well negotiate palm os is recognized, you can't negotiate with israel. and they didn't realize that over the last 7 months, they realized it with the assassination of, from the and a send, a signal with the elevation of send wire. we know that he will never negotiate. woodson wire, we understand that. but we also understand that it's impossible to negotiate with you. all right, well, we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of

our guests, beverly milton edwards on my roof, mon and norman finkelstein and thank you to for watching the can see the program again, any time of visit our website of 0. com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page and that's facebook dot com, forward slash age and side story. you can also during the conversation on x, r handle is at a inside story. for me, how much is room and a whole team here? bye for now, the the officers solution inspect gives us now for future that we have to find creative solutions, not just turn our backs on. i don't think that has a number. think about it as a person, person yourself, and that person's shoes. so as you can see for this is my us, my life, or at least in my life, you know, stages. we want, we want the education,

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the welcome. to submit an extra re design a redesigns luxury leasing, trusting of future. today we create a the overall madison and don't have the top stories. and i'll just say that bangladesh is nobel laureates. mohammed unice has arrived in the capital dock out, but he's due to take charge. as the leader of a new caretaker government is held, the student authorized with the top of deployment associated sienna, as quote, a 2nd independence, and then emotional address and surrounded by student demonstrators. he paid tribute to those killed during the weeks of antique governments protest. as the leader of in turn, government, eunice will now have to ensure free and fair elections and establish law and order