the thing is to 0 who goes behind this, which to bends bringing traditional middle eastern music to new audiences, sisters and song human. and i'll just be around the the see. busy telegram, pavel, do all the help by french police, the detention of the russian bone billing that was being condemned by moscow. i'm a long boss. so why is he being detained? that's the case, have wider implications for social media. this is inside story, the hello welcome to the show. i'm sammy's a. them, he's one of the world's richest man, making his full tune from social media channels. he's invented including telegram

which has nearly a 1000000000 uses, but russian bone, french citizen, pavel, do it all varies now under investigation in front. arrested off the flying in from either by general or private jets. his encrypted telegram app trades on it secrecy refusing access to the state agencies to it's data bases or user information. there's a degree of secrecy so far about the french investigation to the price reports in paris suggest its link to allegations of criminal activity where telegram was used . the company denies any wrong doing while the rest is being criticized in moscow and by a long mosque. so why is due or off being questioned? what are the why the implications of this case will be discussing all of this in a moment with, i guess what 1st, this report from wilson dies out. a telegram is founder, pablo dogs was arrested in an airport near paris on saturday night. he was detained

under the arrest warrant with french prosecutors and telegram have not commented on why french media reports say, prosecutors are examining allegations. the messaging app telegram has been used to facilitate the trade of drugs, weapons, and the exploitation of children. telegram posted on its official channel saying it was absurd to hold the platforms owner responsible for the abuse committed by the users of that platform. drugs, native russia in april urge telegram to crack down on content it described is linked to terrorism. after attacked by gunman on a moscow concert theater in march, that killed at least 145 people. but on monday, russian officials described her i was arrest as an example of western hypocrisy. the rest of the bible means that there is no freedom of speech that the freedom of speech in europe is that you are mazda 3 months to combat. it gets free,

but the final, the roof is non prison wide because he's russian. he's a russian by nationality and he's russian by his citizenship. so he has been traced as a person to be asked. cape codes for the west as an evil russian girl found a telegram after widespread anti government protests in russia in 2011. and he has been living in exile since russian authorities demanded he allowed them access to the app in 2018, he refused. the platform has a mass nearly a 1000000000 in global users. one of the world's most popular social media platforms. a deal on most who owns x, formerly known as twitter, posted a message and supportive derived in the hours after his arrest. using the french word for liberty, regulation of social media is under great scrutiny, with lack of moderation blamed for the spread of misinformation and enabling

criminal activity to go. garage case will be watched with interest, not least by his competitors. wilson dies ard alj, a 0 for inside stored the well that's bringing all gas now in by then ben arris found the and editor in chief of b, n. e in telling news. he's been following this story very closely on the new costs and in the u. k, chris stoker walker, a technology and digital culture journalist who also hosts the podcast tectonic for the human rights organization. offical 19 the organization looks at freedom of expression on line with a focus on the human impacts of big tech and social media. more welcome to both of you if i could stop with ben. so let's stop 1st of all band with well do we know officially so. ready fall we, we know he's been detained, he hasn't been charged, but i have a sort of face spoken to and i was about what that question to him over what he

suspected of and very little sofa and the french police have been quite right since they have said that it's, he's been detained in connection with a preliminary investigation, and it's also being reported that he's being investigated by the, the, the side of a unit of this on dominate. and they suggested this connected to a distribution of, of come up with a drug traffic and terrorist. however, as he says, that sizes are not actually been formally announced, his detention has just been extended for another 48 hours after which they have to either charge him. i'll let him go. but we're waiting for an announcement today. we're expecting to hear the details of the charges, and that will be key because it can be everything from just obstructing justice, not for pricing in the investigation. trade to being linked, to a complicit or an accessory, to the crimes. the allegedly going on inside of graham and those charges if it

comes to that one, then he faces significant timing jail and very launched by this is quite a significant development. is it not chris? do we have any indication about just how solid this move is? the case against him might be, as ben says, i mean, we are to very, very early stages of this. and from what we understand, the details are incredibly sketchy. we have hard earlier today um that the secretary general is the ultimate which is the, the office of mine is being friends talking about how um door of was arrested over the clothes that kind of a lot of motor ration and a lot of cooperation. and we saw socrates when they're trying to tackle crimes against children. so that would suggest that they say is something to do with you matrices that were being shared to potential child abuse. and also, potentially is are, you can think of things like maybe child profiting a lot of a lot of the, the newer of telegram i suppose is this option as an option. one of the main,

the misconceptions of how telegram works is that everything is sent by default through an encrypted process, but it's actually something you have to up to the to known. but you can do that and if you haven't been encrypted messaging service, then suddenly you can imagine that this might be useful for criminals to try and coordinate some of the crimes and also to kind of communicate with one another. so it looks like that is the case, but as ben is very clearly laid out, we're still in the very early stages alternates. we still don't fully know what exactly to or of is alleged to have done. and until we find that out, i think it's can be very difficult, not just for those of us to hear about it, but also for to or of himself to be able to mount a defense. ben, what do you make of the timing office? because telecom has been talking about how it's user base is growing, how it hopes to be profitable. so that was even talk about maybe heading towards an i p o. it has to i p a and it's a, it strikes rate,

it's on the ground and stuff makes no money. it's been existing on the roof himself, who is cooling this look at the russia and so much as his previous company. the contact it now is the case is basically the same as facebook. and he was forced out of that, he had to sell it several years ago, but made a lot of money. and he's been funding tethered by then he floats to claim to the crime and was hoping to be on a surprise it by that's. and he has investors, and he's it'd be an issue in bonds and he's promised to pay the investors, backed by march 2026. and in order to to that define is to an idea. otherwise, you know, becomes unclear how he's going to continue to, to, to pay is investment. so he has to spend something like a $100000000.00 a year on servicing the the bonus that you already has. however, if he's still in jail, then the idea becomes problematic. but suddenly it's on the cards. it's chris. the possibility of people using apps for criminal activity probably can't

be only related to telegram, right? one imagines, you know, a lot of apps could and platforms can be used, potentially for criminal activity. why is do roles and kind of ground being targeted in this way? there are a couple of reasons i think, twice. i mean, you rightly points out that you have telecom is, is not the only up that will host crimes and the communication of crimes. and the organization of crimes through a service, i think what makes telegram slightly different and what makes people do or of perhaps an easier target for french ortiz to tell you bodies, frankly, unprecedented. actually, i think in terms of bringing an attack, c o to here here, and the alleging of significant concerns around them is that both telegram offerings and this kind of very old gray area where important because of 2 year olds, very outspoken defense to free speech and his,

his willingness to kind of defend the rights of uses in canes, law enforcement request, which tell them what makes a great deal of it. it says, you know, place and think about it. we'll try and refused as many of those requests as possible because he believes in freedom of speech and which not do or of she has an awful lot of space and police i think which to likes to be alone. most not makes it a target because that makes it a place where you all likely to see more criminals and others who are trying to evade detection starting to kind of congregate snow. doesn't mean that. yeah, they sees a whole bed of crime. many, many people use it simply for communicating with friends and family and, and telecom is made that very clear that they believe that this is a case potentially without marriage here. but i think i don't, we do know, just as always to jump in, but we do know roles that have been allegations against all the apps that they haven't being used by potentially criminal activities. extreme file, right?

individuals in groups, some of who have been accused of engaging in violence or even convicted of engaging in violence. the recent writes and the u. k. highlighted the issue was allegations that they use twitter. and yet we haven't heard of any attempt to go off to the owner of the ceo of some of those platforms, right. which gets me to the point that i was just gonna say, which is that telegram operates. and this kind of old space where it is a big platform, 902950 1000000 users dependency on how your accounts and people do are all these a very rich mind anywhere between 9 and 15 $1000000000.00 network as buy some estimates. but he is not in the sort of same stratosphere as a likes if you don't muscle the likes of mock secretary. i can, mike, why so low? tell her problem is a lifeline for many people. good on the evil. it's also nowhere near as big or as important as many as those law drops. and so i think that there is an element here

of title do are often telegram being kind of a medium sized fish in a big time. and then chris, are you saying that he's basically an easy, a target? yeah, that's exactly what i've decided. he's an easier target than anybody else to try and target to that. because if you try and bring multiple people you can to hun coast as he stepped off the plane in powers, i imagined that they would be a whole host of lawyers coming against differential authorities. that rules that were very, very strongly media presence to try and defend that where i was taught will do, or of it is a degree smaller. and i think studies playing into the french was already hundreds . here. he's been following this case, span the the gross of, of kilogram and it's found the story for a long time listening to what chris is saying that about him being an easy, a target. tell us a little bit about what message that sending in lights of the fact that we do have credible allegations by credible organizations like the 2022 report by amnesty

international that pointed the finger at facebook's algorithms. and as it put rent, the space to the profit as contributing to human rights violations in me, in law. and yet we haven't seen the same level of con thing, shall we say, of others as what we're seeing. what's going on with tyler crime? it, i think that sort of thing facebook, i mean it, it's such a huge bible and surprise and the sexy things go after. and if you're going to make that kind of allegations against social media, then you start with the biggest ones. but i mean to follow up from the point um that my, my colleague was just making, i mean what, what makes i think i'm very special in this case is the lack of moderation in, in the kind of kind of case is really extreme. i mean, the whole philosophy is do not answer fit axle, and you can frame the as of freedom speech thing, and the russians x 2, you said before is doing exactly bad. but he's really ottoman,

and he's quite obsessed with it, but he doesn't interfere with what people say or do you want anybody into the system. so i haven't looked at the messages to the point where the face stuff with the f s. b in russia. the, when my dad should be of the success as apache bates who demanded the electronic keys because they said, what's it being a terrorist investigation? i think it's quite good because of the encryption because of the secrecy. but you have in sending on messages. this is our office platform for criminal actors to use . and even in those cases that's to the crime has not given go up for a split. it starts is based on a, on very rare occasions that were pressured by the americans and did close down some terrorist. i'm chat groups that were using telegram. and again the same charges come up here. that one of the, one of the pos, the investigation is being makes there is the french authorities are investigating . um, so i'm so tired of this network. and again, do it off, has refused to give them access. and under the new this to the same to that is it,

is he being pursued because the lack of moderation all because he simply refuses to hand over the electronic keys because, you know, coming back to the example i gave of, of the amnesty international report. well, they said about facebook was not simply that there was a, a lack of moderation. they said the way that the algorithms was structured and set top. and the, the profit pursuing policies actually played. may. that meant that facebook was playing a much more proactive role in the spread of hate speech. now, surely, that is a bigger issue then simply being passive. if you're looking at applying lower, know the equally right part of the truth, but it's, it's slightly different than the case of facebook. you're posting messages to be read by the general public. in the case of ton of crime, these terrorist groups, a criminal groups having private chat groups, private messages,

and that doesn't go to the public. and the point is that they retracted to test drive because not only do they have that end to end decryption if they tell the secret messaging function on. but there's also because there's no moderation, there's no one looking out of your show that see what you're writing about. whereas in the case of x and facebook, i mean if you post a video or a picture of violence in the facebook, people will take it down. and that's the point is that time does not interfere actual with anything that you post. and also under the new know the if you moderates in your track groups and use spectrum of criminal activity, you're obliged to reports it to the place. and again, telecom hasn't done that. it doesn't report anything i'm going to. it just leads them along unless they attract some of it, and that's why it's, it's grown this advice. and when i'm talking to friends in russia, the leading afternoon rush is whatsapp. ironically, however, if they want to talk about business or we were discussing the details of a story, then they always asked me to switch to telegraph business trust,

particularly the nation. you're that what you say on the ground won't go any further and copy spied on. whereas the other apps candidate on that point though, chris, i mean if it's a matter of moderation and there's no one looking over your shoulder. i mean, there have been cases where the thing goes, being pointed at twitters, is taking all the at, during the recent writing of the u. k. where some of the things which been was talking about, you know, the obligation to step in and intervene and, and, and, and the activity that seen is inciting brighton crimes. being accusations that hasn't been cited is that by some of the other apps like twist. so with the former to it's a vice president for europe, bruce stays the cooling for an arrest warrant for a long mosque if he quote continues to store up unrest. right? but yet when not seeing, is they not? what we're hearing in the social media is fairly, is this part of the world and that the southern hemisphere is there is

a perception of double standards here. yeah. well i think it's, i think it's less double standards. i think it's more a degree of different savvy him, so buzz has been highlighted and telegrams unique selling point is essentially that eighty's if and or outright marketing itself towards criminals, eighty's providing services and a way of doing things that it is at least useful to criminals. whereas on twitter, you o x. now you have kind of a slightly mu at pad box version. is that where you have some motivational, lo, it has become much, much more since you know, most takeover not as in part because of his kind of dogmatic approach to free speech. and also in part because of what seems to be his political persuasion. and then you have on the other end of things, um yeah, we'll talk facebook and the other platforms that are run by mac to which no one is denying that criminal activity happens on those. but it's,

it's kind of devices are not drunk to rawls is on a reason for that platform existing. so some people might say it's okay, so it's a really proceeds is that, is that really the case? so of course, when you look at some of the recent statements by e loan mosque during the rights in the u. k. and the way that that was interpreted, you know, the country heading towards the civil war and so on. and that caused the backlash of william, the prime minister of the. okay. yeah, but i that's equal must being a professional troll. this is no surprise audio and most cousin searching himself into the panel door of case not least because he shows a lot of things politically and cycling in terms of his believe the top to that as, as supportive. all of the idea at least of, of allowing could continue to allow platform for the expression of a lot of right wing opinion that many considered a wondered whether it was a violation of, of hate speech, a laws and crimes. a yeah, nothing to buy basically that is not is, you know,

most will that we choose to live and he is unfortunately bolt because often decided that he is going to tell you to not direction no to be. however, it is interesting that ex fun to eat or most cars actually exceeded to pretty much every government request that's being sold it to 100 with data. and we did see was telegram. not necessarily hunting over day to pick up and, but i know certainly i was reporting on some of the we had groups that were being used tubing, ice arise in the u. k. in the last few weeks over the summer. and suddenly they started disappearing. and we learned later through telegrams press office that they were deciding to actually take action against this. so i think, yeah, their own degrees of difference here probably do or of does recognize that you know, there are some things that are potentially beyond the pale, not least when police are starting to break down his neck a little bit. but it is interesting to hear that um, yes, telegram is, i think a degree of difference away from you as a slightly more mainstream possibles, perhaps not the best way of thinking over these mainstream platforms versus french platforms. and no one is to knowing that telegrams need a 1000000000 uses on,

not significant. but i think that if you asked the unabridged person to list a number of messaging services or social media platforms off the top of the head, telegraph property comes way down near the bottom. a listening to chris, so yeah, go ahead, ben. yeah, i just want to pick up on the phone. i mean the. yeah, in any way its just the door of case um is uh, could be a test case, a landmark case and so much this is typically a capitalized event. it's crystallized this whole issue about the need for companies moderate the content and pay attention to what's going on. and you mentioned the rice and the u. k. and in this case we go to the ground facilitating drug traffic. cuz i mean, we have this new european, this low, but until this point, the social media companies have been left allows the self regulate themselves and put in their own standards for motivation of what they find acceptable and what they time someone i must have spelled as i'm biases and so they put some funny rules in there and things like the ukraine has been downgraded in the search,

which is a quote of his but i think because also tony to spend anything more regulation may be coming more government involvement. that'd be coming. and i, i think just crystallizing the debates around, i mean, here we are having exactly the discussion and the, you know, one of the options here is the french could accuse or off of being an accomplice. these kinds not just like coasted them, not just, you know, failing to cooperate with the law enforcement investigation, but actually being accomplished. and if that happens, then he goes to jail for a long time. and it means the, you know, i'm sitting here in germany and if i wrote some uh, sweet pricing, hitler, which is illegal in germany, then not only blankets punished, but then it makes must also complicit in that and opens the criminal charges. so this, this could, i mean i don't think it's going to go that way, but the point is that what is the responsibility of the end of the social media?

it's a motor, a one of the guidelines and where the standards, plenty of rest and cb absolutely, that's a, that's very well. those are glad you made that point on because i'm, i'm fairly show ben. you're not going to tweet something supportive of hitler. but the beyond that way, does the responsibility for how people use an app or a product. and chris, i mean kind of room size. it's completely up to hold the oven. are responsible for how people use a messaging or social media app of the yeah, the same arguments made by god manufacturers are not there isn't that they can be responsible for the actions of the people who own them. i do think that there is a responsibility here and i do think that uh, we are that interesting moving because this is the 1st time that essentially european regulators have no access to the to but of the whole can. it is interesting that they have decided to go off to an individual named pace of ross, is that a company? so ben mentioned earlier to all of the large european bits of regulation of the

coming through digital markets. often the digital services aren't, they serve different purposes, but essentially the design of them is so about european come see me is whether you are buying stuff or you are interacting with other people or protected in some way from issues or free speech issues of crime. and so on and so forth. and i think that what's really interesting about this is not, this is a step beyond this is not just saying we will find the, which is what they are able to do. one to these 2 bits of legislation. but instead of this, this thing actually, we will call you executive, you'll see your phone to directly responsible for the interest instead of being caused through your platform. and that is a significant development because ultimately not then means that you suddenly have know people ending up in j. o. but it does mean not monks are configured on most can know that it's crude and feed re b cold, partly responsible for the actions are taken through that platform. but i think that is what is particularly interesting to me, not that they smell cause

a huge change all that most of the vehicle must still be quaking in their boots right now, worrying that they're going to be putting to shackles when they lived in europe. but i think that it will cause them at the back of them. oh, interesting. well, maybe owing to page to be quotes and this, but perhaps some of my slightly lower down executives won't be. and maybe the you mentioned the low or related to that. you mentioned a moment ago that interestingly, you know, some of these apps have actually, and it almost has been more cooperative with authorities requests. is that a factor? do you think here in, in how, how far these go off to some of these apps? do they look at the degree of cooperation or not? do you think of yeah, absolutely. this is the reason why we all seem puzzled or all the rest of right now . it's not because you're just only the degree of issue of what is actually on telecom is because of the way in which he's closer to it and kind of showing off that he's locked in your tool. so why was seeing you on must being talked to so

much by european regulate just by the way, and people like to every breath talking, who is more of the east commission is in charge of the looking at how regularly meets the road when it comes to social media platforms, he's pick fights with him as well. i got a brief minute here and i want to ask this question to ben. we've seen roches being, i think, fairly critical of what's happened in front so far. but of course, their office had these issues with the russian authorities to is a bit of international powell politics going on here. well, i think you have to realize, i'll put this in, the context of i is the russian senior russian business model is just being accused of jack trusting and distribution conversely, and it's being thrown in jail. and this comes in the context of the present as well . but we just had where even goes, which was arrested us reports and put in jail for it yet, and eventually swapped in in august. so is this a story present as well?

and so as far as the different concerned i'm there already, the russian petitions are already saying the same thing that the americans who are behind this uh that building up a prisoner as of and not gonna keep bill in there. and then in a look 1st, what lights are on again, nice everything in this classic a conspiracy. there is a come forwarding out at this point. i mean, there's also the fact that the was flying from back to us about john on his way back to us the biggest bug. and he being that seemed try and see goods and because in russia, so the crime is actually being under like, um, the lines that youtube slowed down. so it is basically not working now. and then just last week, but sort of ground on one side of the services with disruptive. and the belief is or that sort of wins tobacco to try and st cloud's in so loving and so protective service so that it wouldn't be shut down. but again, you know, that puts him in proximity, you could send that, he's on a cock in europe as being every on

a dock as being sanction. and this asset sees and then suddenly boom, you know, this russian takes the biggest threats and take a banana entrepreneur as just be interested. and so for most i see that they see this is particularly a list of send a really interesting, fabulous discussion that signed comcast very much for it, but iris and chris stoke, a walker. i'm fine q 2 for watching. you can see the show again, any time by visiting our website out to 0. don't com for further discussion ahead of us on facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash i j inside story. you can also join the conversation on x. how handle there is that a j inside story from a sam is a that and then the whole team here for now is combine the the

for us to have, we have inside the world,

people pay attention to this one here. and i'll just see this very good that bringing the news to the world from here. the hello, i'm down in jordan and joe hall with the top stories here on i'll just say the united nations says it's unable to carry out a distribution in gaza. that's off the israel or the evacuation of part of the by the on sunday. it force to you and to evacuate is main operation center and central gaza. but it is this, it is not withdrawing or suspending operations across the street. fabulous onto has moved from human headquarters in new york. they cannot set up new distribution centers. they cannot even transport any aid anywhere. that is essentially all been shut down right now.