jobs us ours, the most vulnerable group is really relentless for. i'll just see you as teens across the world. when you close to the house of the story, it was meant to be that you just hear the carriers going knox creek quickly for the tragic attack. stunned the world, and the us president came in and whispered something into the prisoner's ear. what did he just say to press? for the school children present? the events of september, the 11th defined, the will, they grew up in just a huge moment. these are the stories. 911, faith witness. oh no. just say right. social media platform, x goes dark. in brazil, it fails to comply with a court order to block accounts. links to this information owner alone must says it's a crescent on free speech. how much politics is involved on foot other countries follow suit? this is inside story,

the hello and welcome to the program. i'm telling you, navigate the social media giant. x has been banned in brazil. it's the latest development in a months long dispute between a supreme court judge on tech billionaire a long must over censorship and this information. brazil isn't the 1st country to restrict access to the platform. the band is re igniting and debates about the roles. social media plays and politics, freedom of speech, and the spread of misinformation. how since social media giants be regulated, and the censorship being used as a political tool, we'll explore these issues on more with our guests in a moment. but 1st, this report by katya lopez all day on a like many students, 18 year olds on,

i guess for news from social media. now that x is banned in brazil, she's looking for other platforms. the people my age aren't really in the habit of watching tv news or reading the news. and switzer x was the way to get news from around the world. so unless thoughts are listed with what's happening globally, the bit of that the, the split assume, know when the bit of bad, the deputy, so supreme court judge alexander, the motorized says x owner, you on must fail to comply with an order to suspends accounts linked to spreading this information and know the truth, even if the truth is that a popular must cause him an evil dictator and accused him of trying to silence to something conservative views. the building and air investor has aligned himself with right wing figures like brazil's former president tables to nato. and donald trump, the current president, leasing us. you let us welcome the ruling. same mosque is out of line of your live

to quite a bit with a different kind of plug. it's having a lot of money doesn't allow you to disrespect the supreme court deal must. it's an american citizen, he's not a citizen of the will hit the account defending price. it looks like the congressman, the senate, all the supreme court does he think he is the world most because repeatedly loaded and conservative and right wing circles as a hero of free speech and the roll. x, formerly known as twitter, plays in politics globally, is significant. the platform has been banned in pakistan since elections in february, but the government, citing threats to national security as a reason. and then as well, let me go less, my little shut it down with nationwide demonstrations broke out and response to his contested election victory. russia also banned the ap afterwards invaded ukraine in 2022 and temporary or permanent restrictions have been imposed in several countries, including china,

ran an egypt. brazilians have lost access to the platform and can face have defiance if they're called using an encrypted connection. will they refresh the screen? thought is, is not my company. we must close this office saying he wouldn't comply with court really. oh, did you destroy your? yeah, please. it's most like it's almost, it's against any company, especially the big techs usa, which sometimes feel very comfortable. disrespecting court ruling school wonder brazil's ban of the popular social media side highlights the role it's and other platforms play and freedom of speech, misinformation, and politics. capielo pistol again, how does era for insight story ok, let's bring in our guest. joining us from london is fluoride rebel. or i'd uni who's a senior advisor on technology and human rights will lead research and advocacy projects on the role of this information and brazil's 2022 presidential elections

in new castle and the u. k. as chris spoke, a walker, who is a technology and digital culture, a journalist, he hosts a podcast called tectonic which looks at freedom of expression online, also joining us in london, but just off the plane from brazil is venice. yes, the car valeo was a reader and brazilian studies at kings college london and also the founder of the observatory of democracy in latin america. thanks for your time with us on inside story i'm venice is if i may start with you since you're just off the plane in brazil from brazil. how is this being seen over there? a thank you very much for having me here. first of all, and yes, just coming back from busy with was just there when this, this order was issued by the judiciary. and it's been quite controversial. of course we see a lot of people that support and this is court order. and also those who are using that mostly especially those that, that associate with the directory and event because of and meant out of complaining that this is a sort of transgression of the right of speech and,

and also sort of suspension of democracy and presume, i think this is reflecting very well, this sort of the vision that the countries seem even before the score or the decision. so it's just another another part of this game of the, let's say, the vision that the count is leaving right now. okay, chris of the drugs accused acts of treating the social network, quote like a no man's land, a veritable land without law, by allowing the massive propagation of misinformation hate space in anti democratic attacks, but at the same time ex, posted, but the sub done by the judge is simply because we would not comply with his illegal orders to censor his political opponents. opponents. i mean is this ultimately down to whether it's a question of free speech versus sovereignty? i think the most, we would like us to believe that i think that many people in tradition resigned in governments around the world might be echoing what the facility and our set that

well it may be noting quite as strong terms because they try and keep a relatively simple relationship, i suppose with a lot of most but yes, this is undoubtedly the kind of everywhere in which most likes to topple. he knows that it is possible for him to kind of encourage each weighs political divides and we've seen in brazil a huge political divide asks the election and he likes to try and decided that he is going and getting bolt in this on it. so it's a social level and so he is seeing this, i think has a free speech fight. i think that the judge does have, however, some very legitimate concerns whether we, we trust or don't trustee the kind of request and the validity of those requests to take down these things. we do know that even most has decided that he is come to try and floss a lot of these orders and take a grandstand while doing so. so i think that we ought to be a little bit concerned about this in terms of while the field must, who's doing this and with twitter and kind of present lazy. can i do this with other platforms elsewhere? okay, i will get to that a little later,

but let me bring in floor. what's your opinion? i mean, does this band on x constitute a violation of spray? speak the free speech principles or, or not? it's absolutely not for there is a southern country and mosque is sitting this virtual ivory tower, what he claims that he's entitled to the side. why there to respect or know a tradition measure from the supreme court of the country. so it's not a matter of free speech. again, he's using this speech to make sure that he engages and you know, friendly cohorts in brazil and abroad should support. he's a legal actions english or you can surely challenge a single decisions in court and using the traditional system to do so. it's entitled is already right, but you have to go through the system. and right now he's just simply deciding not to respect. what are your basic model on for so, unfortunately, uh, mazda has been doing very tablet. it could several documents that are confidential

between the supreme court and acts. and for months now mosque has been publicly saying that he will simply not respect traditional measures called me from what i is because he believes they are in constitutional. and everybody is entitled again to challenge decisions. but then you have to go through the proper judiciary process to do so. and mosque is simply deciding to use its own platform, its own megaphone to decide whether to comply or not with the laws of a sovereign country. and that's the problem. you should still, even if you don't agree with that decision, does use the judicial system around the country. so you can then challenge legally those decisions that you think are unfair evidence here. so i swear not into what floor has to say. i mean, what the final straw we should mention before x is banning and blocking in brazil came on thursday, one must ignored a deadline that was put forward by the ju, just to reach a name, a new legal representative for the countrymen from the mountains. the ex violated

that law by not naming a representative, wasn't it expected that they would be held accountable for this? yeah, absolutely, and i totally agree with my both colleagues. that's mation that said before, i think that we, what we have here is just a violation of, of because even the legal system and decisions of the judiciary. and there are ways that they can, they can go addressed to this decision, but each must upset the legal terms here must, cuz not a representative elected by the president population to, to activity parliament, or indeed with the chevy to see why it is not what these are not a constitutional in the country. another important aspect here that many people in musk, indeed as well, was saying that what eyes was acting wonder practically in his decisions, but um at to, to support his decision next week. i think monday, already the supreme court. we joined together to, to hold them by him what his decision and everything points out that they will

support it even cost to them that the hard decision it to be voted by. this the being tied to the type of an symbol of judge, the 12 judge of the supreme court. that means that we are getting here again, the violation of prisoners over anything. some terms when someone decided just because holds a company that has, makes a lot of money to, to violate this, these laws and decisions of just the same. but as you and the 2nd point, it's important to say that this sort of debates and quantum vs are quite good for, for an x. they leave a law also based on that more and more few for debates and discussions that to give more visibility to the platform and to must as well. okay, chris, i seen you're agreeing with this, this house to say on, in terms of the visibility when it comes to x. but, but how significant is this decision for the company itself? because as we know, brazil is one of the biggest markets for x. and there is a statistic market research group in market or says some 40000000 brazilians. that's roughly one 5th of the population, access x, at least once

a month to get if we contextualize our service, a box to state, to res, sometimes a little bit shaky. sometimes i was states things a little bit based on different measurements and so it's not like for like, but there your taxes use that base is probably also around about a 5th of bodies, brazilian maybe a little bit less, maybe a little bit more depending on how you count, but this would be a significant blow in terms of the number of uses, tati, lose us buddies, frankly, playing into the loan mosques. cons, i suppose that this is bonded and it comes back to what for us. and also let's use that in terms of how these things must m o. he likes to pick fights with people and, and try and test the manual and decide whether or not he is big of or more powerful than elected governments. selected churches, those who say to him, power and house these kind of democratic, right to say these are the laws of our country, easy. you like small lump sum and he's done this in the past with australia he, he's got into a fight with that. the safety commission that he was in charge of over seeing that

role, 9 safety law over trying to take down a video result, images of a to the task in a church that with protests, relax, the safety commissioner required those to be taken down. musk and acts basically took them to court. he's doing the same thing in europe in the global nose, in terms of arguing with charity. brett told one of the commissioners, have the your opinion over whether or not they all breaking rules here and the you hesitate, you can put them in a reaction to the side that x is in, in breach of one of the additional markets next to the digital services act in terms of not doing things by the book. so this is most realizing that he likes to be the center of attention, realizing that old publicity is good publicity when it comes to this sort of stuff and thinking, well, i'm going to take a risk that actually these people won't follow through on us, right? so it just turns out now increasingly we're seeing those sorts of traditional resources, governments really all okay, chris, hang on a 2nd. i gotta ask you this. i mean here say that this is sort of a of

a long must m o. but if you look at what happens a back in 2009, but the obama administration at the time is this thing. it's not meant meddling in iran confirmed it had asked twitter at the time, it was called twitter to remain open to health and to government protest or is which were taking place during 2009. and the twitter had planned to temporarily shut down, the government intervened, ask them to stay on line. i wonder to what extent x is sort of embedded or following the u. s. policy agenda, and this is simply not his own. m. o is you call it? i think that's not entirely true. i think that must, frankly, wouldn't be count towing to any us present nor even donald trump. i believe that his trump was to be elected in november. most of the party believes that he is the smallest for individual. he has more power and he doesn't need to follow those rules. he could shrink those rules. and so, given the political divine between him and joe biden and become

a harsh ticket as well, i don't think that there is any idea that most might be somehow in bed with some babies in trust. so you do points out. it's really fascinating point to read, which is so x totally twisted, it has long beam, the sorts of cradle of democratic decision making and the ability to kind of steer off the populace against off and also retiring rules. and so the reason is concerned here we have in the package uh that opened up our discussion that a these binding a many you kind of also retirees and states and view as evolved as you will remember that phase of the house. okay. with the arb spring basically being fomented through social media platforms like twists are actually being able to share for children and information about what was happening helps bring that across the region here. i don't think this is necessarily what's happening in brazil. i think that, you know, the reason elements of politics, you know, top we never got lula is very different to both narrow in terms, this presidency and political view points us all to all that upon this will be able

to comment on a much more detail than i could, but we also know, i think here that there is a difference between what's happening now and in brazil and will happen perhaps in 2009 in iran and in the rest of the middle east, around the arb spring flora. would you like to weigh in on this? of course. thank you chris for this, cuz this is very important. let latest decision to band x. it's a combination of months of escalation and it has been showed in the, in the piece before. so there were 2 milestone moments right this year in back in april 20 to 24 months because deliberately decided to put back online several profiles that were under investigation already by the justice. right. subscribing does information hate speech enters individuals. they were monetizing that content right. so april, 20 to $24.00 a month says i'm not respecting any more positional measures and that's the escalation that started. so the ban of twitter is actually the latest. the last

resort individuals has had any tend because when twitter decided to close its office last week, and then there was no legal representative in the country to respond to any judicial manager. and then they, they were given 24 hours to a point on your legal representative after just 24 hours that has not read other measures to be taken by the judiciary in the country. and the civil law and brazil . sorry, actually the civil line resume demands a legal representative to be appointed. and the internet, the billing and brazil gave us all of those, you know, escalation of measures by the judiciary. so they gave a warning. they issued fines, they warrant that it would be suspended. and ultimately elijah, the ban. so we've got to see this as an escalation of events and not necessarily something that just happened this week because just this. um are tired of the tax that much has been directing towards them. okay, chris, go ahead and respond. yeah,

i just wanted to add a little bit more context to what, what sort of setting i think is really important that we think about this to even got listeners. and views of this program will have seen me appearing daily this week on a discussion. similar to this around people do are of the ceo of telecom and one of the issues around telecom that we've had. he's was french with our to use that essentially that has not been that accountability for issues of law enforcement for issues as government requests where there are all these real concerns around spreading this information someone. so guess that triggered point all these being there is no legal representative for x is essentially an application of responsibility by the law must connect. small, like the similar thing that we've seen with people do are open. i think that's why we're starting to see this drastic action against these techs. the 1st 2 are all from telecom, and now most can access that previously. we've always found social media c. i was a bit of a problem. frankly, they have often kind of ignored the rules and push the boundaries into the benefit

of what we would call disruption and disruption has 2 different meanings, depending on whether you were silicon valley taxi, where you were the rest of the world who was affected by those decisions, but i think most different theories, not even when it comes down to it, that the crunch point, those tech companies have actually acceded to request and hot those elements where is now with, with muscular particular endure of last week. there's an indication here that they've refused to, they've stepped away from this, the process of, of traditional type reviews and also government requests to try and say that we know best of the new and all way, all the highways, the rule here. okay. a vanessa. yes. i mean, is there a feeling in brazil amongst those who do not support this band that the government that the brazilian government, the judge and 5 could have taken, perhaps alternative measures to address the concerns without re resorting to a complete band. and if so, what are they will? yes, and i think one of the topics that connect whatsoever, colleagues, the senior year is that many people members who's calling debt to censorship. but

it's important to make a very clear distinction. here. x is not by the dim, presume, is temporarily suspended until we quantize. we, uh some, some regulations and some decisions of the court. so it's not the question of being, but it's just to, to, to become part of compliance with zillow. that's the 1st point. and of course, many of the, the positions of people that are meant in particular or do school have their accounts that frozen or requested by lo to be put down. they are using that as an opportunity to say that really there is bias and to present in decision on the court kia. and the 2nd point that i would like to make coastal, connecting to what my colleagues said before is that it's not clear how the platform works, a parade, the demo, practically speaking. it's not that everything that's but there, it's really been treating the same way. we don't know clearly what our worthington mc system is in used to, to share, and more or less posts. it's not clear how this is being used in terms of money

predicting information. so the risk for, for this information heat is huge. and these actual proof that this was important to, in the text of a tough generator that you are just showing now a some image to, to the audience. so it's clear that we have here really a platform that in some way was actually encouraging more to democracy, didn't the democracy that's pretends to be spreading or promoting. okay, a floor. we touched upon this a little bit. i mean, i wonder if you can elaborate on how this action by result can pass to other countries approaches to regulating or suspending social media platforms. all right, i think chris brought a very important point that i will, that i would loved to elaborate asian. so we are some trends in indeed that alternatives because there are and necessarily specific legislations to hold.

social media platforms are comfortable, they're having to rely on the existing laws, which is absolutely perfect. and that's to help the way it should be. but we also have to be aware that not necessarily the law that we have in place in many countries, us as an example, brazil is another example necessarily attends the broad and fast the different levels of operation of these platforms. and so if we, if you're looking for, so just last year we were about to vote a legislation of video called the fake news bill in brazil. big tag platforms out the publicly they say that they want to be regulated and they would love to be regulated to have legal search and see when the attempts are to actually pass the legislation. they use their all platforms and their own firms to curb those, those attempts. so we're seeing acts of doing this now against the traditional measures. last year we solid meta and google were using it's on platforms to convince the population that the bill wasn't necessary and that bill with just curb

on freedom of speech. so there is different levels of how this platforms try to shape the narratives around legislation has been put in place to hold, hold them accountable. we mentioned briefly about a rogue iraq has been it is i'm all don't know, it is a blueprint for other countries to follow. so it's in terms of how to regulate social media platforms. and we saw friends that chris mentioned before, and that's also important to realize us band. so you can talk. so we are seeing different levels of accountability towards these platforms that are necessary because we as society as democracy as we need to catch up. so it is that the technological advancements across the is measure as though go far enough or are we just at this point? seeing kind of a toughening up by governments around the world towards the social media platforms . we're saying, look, if you're going to overstep, then we're going to have to step in and do something about it. but, but is it enough?

i think that i'm putting the theatre of got into tech. see, i was by arresting me typically a relatively small long last week and now standing up to a rather bigger one and saying, well, we're going to cut off what to do because market sees better than we've done before . i'm not going to say that is perfect. but i think that previously, you know, the, the, the long history of the internet and social media in particular is one of the about a $25.00 use of inaction and trusting that big tax executives will make that road rules. and the best sunlight is the bestest, in fact, and not we can trust them to step in what is needed. and because of that, we had sent me over to the 16 united states. we've had january the 8th and brazil, which we showed footage. all which can you see is was talking so eloquently about the impact of that are about these on to time aquatic measure is not happening, then we have also this huge confusion and a we were calling escape the find that politics is always tiny. talk on this and the present case is a perfect example of this. you know, police has talked about how this is essentially. yeah,

essentially right. wing voice is trying to get back a little bit less. we can voice is claiming censorship. what in fact actually to which is a research automatically before your muscle to code. and although i didn't say many impartial observers would say that he's on, must cause taking x as he's reprinted it in anything like a left claim direction. in fact, probably the opposite. but back to that and to get to the, to exhibit a right wing bias in terms of the account so that i'm to slides through it's algorithm. and that was put his own research realizing that is the issue. so, um, yeah, there is this really interesting element old, both the people who recognize that, that does need to be an element to bringing these executives back to heal. also those who are the most divided in terms of how they should be done because we all, both cymbalta needs to be living in the consequences of contracts, social media regulation, and also trying to wrestle with it while having that political device that is being caused by a witness?

yes. go ahead. i see your nodding and also, i mean, do you think that there are any lessons from the situation that the other countries might learn from regarding the balance between regulation and free expression? yes, absolutely. and i think even if it looks hard, i think it's a good decision and a decision that to change parameters for now, one on how big the x and x or, or the social media companies. we will break in some cultures thinking that they can just go over the regulations of those countries. i think it's a good, a good the parameter also to, to show us how important is what fraud have said to discuss more and more clearly the regulations and norms for, for operations of those companies in different cultures. cultures have different rules and goals, and they need to be upset if there is no company that is over and above all laws in the world, and please measured quite clearly. we have already enough data enough for studies and research to start to create a part of it. there was,

and i think this situation in brazil today even look in the heart. it's a good step in terms of giving more and more as a punishment. there's to, to create checks and balances for those companies operating in democracies. that's what they think we need now. and that's the last one that was you can be teaching now for many countries in the world that's told that they never called face power is like those. all right, so we'll have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us. thanks to me. i guess fluoride rebel or argue any crystal walker and venice used car valeo. thanks so much. thank you for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website l g 0 dot com for further discussion. you can go to our facebook page, facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also turn the conversation on x or handle is a story inside story from myself, the whole team here in delphi, thanks for watching. bye bye for now, the

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