3 of intelligence proposed the forcible and permanent transfer of palestinians from because the street, the people in power. those are just the history of the amount of spinning and displacement. and explores whether clearing palestinians from because the occupied west bank is his range of to transfer on and just the both moscow and nate to have so called red lines that could trigger outright or between them. the conflicting ukraine now involves many countries with western weapons being used against russia. so all these red lines shifting, and is there a greater risk of a wider war? this is inside store, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm fairly bad people. russia has launch its biggest attack of the war in ukraine this year, killing at least 50 people, while ukrainian forces i've hit targets in russia. case forces remain in russian territory in the kirk's region. after crossing the border a month ago. the biggest conflict in europe since world war 2 has brought russia and the west, closer than ever to direct confrontation. russia says it's already fighting a proxy war against nature whose members are army ukraine yet. the white house has said it doesn't want more with russia. so what are the so called red lines for each side and could breaking them lead to outright war between russia and nato will be discussing this would i guess shortly. but for us, this report from saw high right. the dogs carriage away into the city and west and ukraine, close to the border with nato member who was in an injured mind. one of dozens is

comforted or people cry as they look at the enormous damage done to a historical neighborhood. you cease to within cubic medium or movies will move residents of the 6 buildings to other places to schools and to medical centers were damaged. it's tough. several people died in the slates. this russian bombing less than 24 hours to the highest number were killed in a single time. this year. on the other side of the country, the city of port cover was hit by 2 ballistic missile, getting more than 50 people and injuring hundreds of what i can do for you just showed that i school that i said it would be felt the comfortable and the once the games are typically one of the world, ok the father to stop and they said our air defense systems and the styles needed to new cranes not in the warehouse somewhere. long range sykes live, can defend against stress instead or needed. now, know, sometime later,

every day of delay, unfortunately mean small lives. last, the ukraine's incursion into the western region of costs nearly a month ago, took russia by complete surprise. the risky cross border move was the most significant and bold since russia invaded ukraine in 2022. ukrainian soldiers have multiplied thousands of villages across more than a 1000 square meters. we want to make this to a new mission that's problematic. an easy as the used top diplomats has pressure, due cranes and some national bike has to allow strikes on targets inside russia. the u. previous to be largely seen as an economic and political trading book is now intensively involved in training. ukrainian soldiers is the most successful trading mission. the do, the unit has have up before it has drained 60000 solid ears and today they ministers agreed on raising the 1st target 275000,

having 15000 more by the end of the day, the social a good knew who to mo, you refute crane these are requesting visual require contracts and not the nation to didn't was all it is of the will i'm, i'm still somebody got ashton russian president vladimir putin has again, one's ukraine and its allies. guardianship wasn't literally so we can't allow hostile structures to be created near us, which had aggressive plans against us and constantly tried to destabilize the russian federation. discussions have been held in the kremlin about changing brushes, nuclear adult trends throughout the possibility of using nuclear weapons. french president emanuel and the crown has also flutes. it the possibility of western troops being sent to fights and ukraine, dot notions been dismissed by its partners in nate's, or at least now. so the height of all g 0 full inside story. the western

nations have shifted the policy on the supply and use of the weapons by ukraine. the us 1st aim to assist ukraine, but avoid war in russia yet it's now supplied it with around a $175000000000.00 worth of aid, including military supplies since the war began. those arms were 1st restricted to use on ukrainian territory that change in may when present, joe biden said targets in russia could be hit if linked to defending the city of concave. since may france and the u. k. agree to allow storm shadow besides seeing 2 targets inside russia for defensive purposes instead of solely inside ukrainian territory. germany initially refused to allow its length of time to be supplied to ukraine time so that olaf shows you turned on that in january last year. and after the initial reluctance, the us sent a telecom smith files to the country short range versions given a year ago,

switch to longer range versions in april. that can strike targets 300 kilometers away. the us, as they can be used offensively inside russia. but they've been used to attack russian antics crimea. ukraine has repeatedly asks for advance western aircraft. again after the initial reluctance present, joe biden allowed at 165 digits to be sent with the 1st batch arriving in july, the toilet springing. now, i guess for today's show in moscow, dmitri babich is the deputy for an editor of the come so most kayak profit, the news paper and keith peters. i'm a, a v. c executive director of the racial democracy initiative and in berlin. ben iris, editor of business news, you're a gentleman, welcome to the program. thank you very much for joining us on each side. story, peter in key. let me start with you. presidente lensky has asked western leaders to

ignore president 14, so called red lines after the attack to add on tuesday. ukraine is now asking for more powerful weapons and the right to use and deep into russian territory. first of all, how much concern is it in keith today? is that support may drop as this war, brian, so that's been our, you know, everybody else sort of concerned in fears simply because we're dealing with the electrical democracies on like a lot of important russia and his allies, iran and china and north korea. and so there are these big a result of electro democracies where different political force has come to power with different ideas about who use uh, support or if to support allies at all. so that's always a concern, will remain a concern. the money is that the us congress has appropriated a few months ago, is still there. much will depend on who once again gets selected in november. but

be that as it may, i think nato continues to send signals that it simply cannot afford to let you creating a full at the same time. having said this with this continuing tara against civilian areas today. uh, 7 people, they're gonna leave you the day before yesterday, both all over 50 people dead. are you grand needs to both air defense systems as soon as possible and we need to get to finally this permission to strike at russian targets deep inside the dory of russia to strike at these missio complexes before they are fired. i was going to ask you, peter, specifically, which weapons does ukraine want today to use inside russia and how is it going to use as well? in fact, we're already using the same weapons, so we're talking about at that comes to me so. so for a while, and we just need to have a longer range and that gives me so that us would give you quite and has identified jointly with this uh,

western ally as the as many as 250 such. but essentially crucial sides inside versus debit dory. the neutralization the destructions of which, while not with an end to this, what will significantly hamper russia's continuing designs to destroy ukraine. ok, let's get the russian perspective a dmitri babich and moscow. ukraine has said that the kremlin, the threats of retaliation on nothing but a loss, and by inviting russia itself last month, that as we saw the, the offensive into a curse ukraine. it was thought had crossed all of the red lines of russia. and yet there was no reaction from moscow. why is that as well? i don't think there was no reaction from was full of course the, the sports that i just collated on the side or the opinion down. that them, you know, that basically uh, these area was

a peaceful while. the peaceful area during these uh, 2 years, uh, 2 years ago and a copy of the war. uh, there was a kind of way agreement, gentlemen's agreement, patient agreements between russia and ukraine. but the main file is going to be for the boss, which is a populate the right. yeah, you got it. and then you tried to be a program, a political program for your brain for many years. so the fact that now uh, builder of course, russian board, the regents uh from bottom, uh your opinion, roles sometimes, but you see me sounds. of course this is bringing new uh, escalation to the sport. just the best buy was that that was buying a deck. i most used, i don't think it is brand new site. um okay, well what, uh, give me sure. let me just ask you what uh, russia's red lines today. they seem to have shifted so so many times in the course

of this conflict. what is today the ultimate red line for moscow to the broker, the places that the west continues to crash ship, it has been freshened. russia seems to ignite just fortune us the new red lines. uh, let me remind you that the brushing over the red line stop at the thank you. thank you for the 3. well, brandon clinton despite the previous promises the by the united states and all the major would expect. uh and uh since then the roster had to move with the red lines further and further to the east of west rashid weaker. then they go. so one of the ways brush it to defend itself is do kind of a strong presidential board, just like the united states that presidential powers in greece during the 20th century. the quote has no longer has the follow up to declare war. the

president stopped the world without consulting the congress. it was the same way in russia. presidential call was increased and read was became bureau because this is a bottle. the ways to resist the strong, the opponent your don't show you cause you to know a immediately analysis of what people do. but so the red light is to say as a fashion from nash, i want to finish it. it's very important in the western positions, there is a very important to predictions at the same time, the west of media and the west, the but it, you should say the property is unpredictable that present which is dangerous. you never know what you will do. and at the same time, they say he's not going to do anything. i just don't be afraid of you. uh, stripe russia deep inside the standard 3. if not have headphones do need to cause before that nothing will happen in the future. so he's that sounds, the last ease became in use all chevrolet. and there's a huge gap between a, for,

up and down the, you know, human eyes in russia. and that actions, which uh, you know, which i've been thinking, se, fracture was never put, your resistance was already let us deep, deep into this terrible homepage, which is a tragedy for both russia and then let me bring you into the conversation. demetrius said that the, the west is behaving irresponsibly. ukraine, as we've heard, is asking for more powerful weapons from, from nato, from western allies. what are the chances that ukraine's allies will do as president zalinski is asking a noose and the restrictions that have been in place so far? it's confused. i mean, you come in one hand, you've got bought out the foreign minister effectively of the use saying, i get some of the weapons, let them strikes agency, russian, terry straits. on the other hand, you got to take some of that. and that's just curious advisors saying that a policy hasn't changed and that we won't get that commission. and i think to

understand what's line behind this, we should be clear about what we mean by red lines. what, what happens if you cross that? what is this ultimate red line? and so i'm starting the, the 2nd week general of night. so said at the very beginning of the comes that we have 2 priorities, best one. well, the 2nd one is to age and crane and not navigate to featured by russian, but the 1st one is to avoid level 3. and this red line, if you trust a book, what slang behind is this, the fear a, the rush, it will then attract the nature of the country and spot said level 5, etc. and be the able to use and you get a weapon. and at the moment, the rest of the spring rattling it's new to the cyber peach state goods inside exercise. as these moves to move, since they've got a real estate. and they just talking about revising the new to the policy. but what it says is, russia may use the strike nuclear weapons if there is an ex, essential threat to the country. so what do you mean by ex, essential,

i think is working hypothesis. you can basically take that to mean that russia believes is losing. and what is losing my blank, i mean, if there's a complete collapse of the russian army and they are in retreat, that would be losing. but i think at the moment, while the holding back on these long range missiles for ukraine is that the white house escape that losing will look like if you suddenly start hitting all the fields and missed a lot sides pushing back versus forces away from you. frightening border, that's what was the landscape once. okay, verify that. and just to clarify, what are the so called red lines for, for ne, 2 and the west today in this conflict, 2 years on, i mean, we've seen shifts and changes there's, there's clearly been, uh, some ships that in these red lines in the western position. what is it exactly today? and you know, how, how do you expect to, to evolve and how much,

why has it changed so much? i, what have you looked at the product? see, i mean, i think theme is that, you know, there's a confusion on the west side that the supports to crane and that has been studied creeping escalation on both sides and the weapons use that a new bramble in other shows didn't want to send the method tanks and then days there's been tracking the heroes for ages over the sixteen's. those have just arrived, they'll be on the 10 of them. but that's the point. they've always sent some but not enough. and they sent 10 seconds when zalinski was asking for a 120. and so this creating ex good escalation means we're moving closer to the red lines, but it's always being done on, on the western side, so that you don't cross this line. so you don't provoke to was so that you can continue to say, but we're helping ukraine defend itself, because the favorites are coming in. we'll turn around and say actually you're using nights or weapons to it's high pressure. and therefore, we're entitled sitting outside of the eggs. and this is why the cost incursion was

so scary. because you now have western weapons west and supplied weapons inside russian. and this could come, you know, the permanent could take this as an attack on other russia and then with tiny all night. so i'm, so we've come up again to push the red line back again. but as i said before, i think the ultimate red line for boots, it is, if he thinks russia is losing the war, and then you will return to a other white house trying very hard to make sure that that doesn't appear to be there. okay, dimitri last to uh, in a moment whether you agree with what i've been arrows for said there by this ultimate a red line for, for present, put in. but i just wanted to come back to peter and ask you your thoughts about what dimitri said, he talked about the west talking irresponsibly and also ask you why it is it that you create a seemingly not been as concerned about russia, so called red lines. what, what is in bold and ukraine a well, it's in bold is you creating the fact that russia has, you know, every time that the suppose that red lines have been crossed is not really done

anything that it hasn't done old radius since the very start of this war, the stair are continually has rains on our cities. now regardless of course, co, we're not cross can you know what, let me just come back to this idea that this some kind of terrible red line that's been crossed uh, by ukraine, occupying parts of the car sca territory similar to what to put in is doing elsewhere in ukraine, i mean putting himself recently suggested that he might be ready for the stocks in ukraine withdraws from chris. well, how is it? let me ask you, how is it different from ukraine waging war to reclaim its territory in the doing box and crate me according to the rush of the constitution. these areas are already part of russia. so is there some kind of a slight distinction? so i'm kind of a freud in, you know, sort of slip of the rhetoric on the part of putting, because, you know, according to the constitution, cars, or probably near or the don't box. it's all the se,

in the old model by the russian. so it's telling you this even putting realizes that simply according to international law, there's simply no justification for occupying the territory of ukraine, the west, the sooner it stopped caring about in your writing to put in his red lines. you know, the sooner he will be motivated to come to the negotiating table unless russian start to feel the brunt of this war and their territory board and it will be unable to wage this war. endlessly, he has enough money to do what kind of long as russians go. then you try to respond to me. 3, your response to what? uh peter has just said, well the guess i'll back straight. oh, you're not safe. you will have legal jesus either for your brain withdrawals from the course of the opinion person in the course. in the 4th grade, you would have said that there wouldn't be known which seem you will this as a very dangerous as the way to. that was the city and the you know,

makes it, i labeled the folding jesus. uh, i think these are all tragic bread to develop because the soul of these matters for war and the bad. the gravity. well, and we just kind of been saying before the course that we would have people stations, if you bring in the degrees that these 4 regions don't as dock. uh, i got all of that part over here and, and uh, and have so, uh, you know, what, what you're actually declared, it's debbie. p. e, for the never to be russian center 2 by 2 feet, sight a mile off to the attack against the force region. the fulton said that if there were, there will be people, patients with the patients, the russians position will be part of that. and you to the water, the full so precious because of the many types of pro mania,

very officials. i think it's not a good idea. it minds me over the, i'm sorry, all day g is always long extremes. so who could find that? that could be so they would either states the proposal body stable service, but that they said that okay, we crap for intermediaries. we haven't seen them getting us down. it is all supported by them that the states lives breathable. tuesday, the 9th and states that didn't come with me while i think that i was that terrible tragedy uh thousands bought. but the, the, there were also several try to get this pull site. you don't do it too. and you live ball if you will. if you bring all the features on, so when you have follow something terrible like happened before. well, the prize important has threatened to use nuclear power and, and as a been said earlier, that there's a top now in moscow or of revising the nuclear doctrine is,

is it clear what form that revision may take? and just how serious is the crime into boxes? well, that's the point. uh, there is a point of view. it will show that that'd be doing that right. she's up to the coast countries to use this point. i still wouldn't be due to the united states. what would be us about this web of europe, that'd be, that'd be use manufacturers are a big use about what that like to do if something happens. so that's not something new in the important for the next. but, oh, wow. roches excess where you fit by. what they were all about exercises, you agree with them? there wasn't, there were no view stripes, there was no real use or when they replaced a web record desk, that reminds as a wall to try streamlines. well, it has these weapons, but the website shows f. f c, these web has never existed. i mean listen to uh,

joseph burro. he's in, he says that it would be a good idea. believe restrictions what strikes the goose pressure? well, i understand that the portal is an old man pro, 50000, awfully bunch of older, but this is very responsible. oh, the side the you with the union? this. okay, let me, let me ask ben about this to say that this threat been of no clear black may. how is it being viewed in western capital in germany, for example, there's a difference. i don't like it. i mean that there is a fear that that boots in could, he's done a stream things every time. and this will mean just cussing the boat of being the most extreme right at the beginning. but each time he surprises, by choosing extreme options. and so possibility is in using and you get away from is non 0. and this graduation is that, that suit of russia has these types, boone use, this kind of small needs which they could use and they would take out the hold of downtown kids,

but it's not bad. ready and it's actually through the same amount of time, it's just a conventional weapons, but it would be new to them. and so they do that in as a warning. i think the chances of boots are actually using one a very low because it would make pressure. brian forever in history. um, but the same thing that we're, what close to now given the tensions given the developments we've seen in the last month or so we closer to a direct confrontation between, you know, the countries that are helping ukraine today and russia. well, i already said this being creeping escalation on the lines of getting pushed back. um the lights spun. i mean, i'm looking to understand this thing with the nuclear weapons and the real danger is not that that he's going to use one is the possibility and then the effect that has and so you're asking about the effected by then independent washington. the effect of the possibility has being this paso aid, so you cranes, some of them have enough because in effect, the white house has imposed

a no fly band over russia on ukraine. where is russia is as we saw last week, with the massive miss authorized, russia has freedom to bomb anything in any way in your brain that he wants to. and why would this move the you of us for this, for this policy refuse permission to use these long range missiles inside rush app, legitimate sockets that are firing themselves into ukraine. the reason is, is spelled at this escalation management policy. yeah, well, thank you ben. what, what's the risk today, peter, of, of the war spreading at engulfing more countries and what direction is ukraine going to take the war? now? we've seen a uh cabinet restructuring, a major cabinet with shuffle after the the attacks recently. where is the, the war going as far as the credit is concerned. uh yes, uh, well, uh listen, uh, the situation in the east of ukraine in the den boss is very uh, continues to be very difficult, etc. but it as difficult as it is. uh,

keep in mind letting me put in his goal remains with the maximum is and that's controlling the entire territory of ukraine making and creating the failed state, etc. so simple a simply uh, i'll just say that militarily, black report and has shown that 3rd. ready 3rd year into this more he's unable to do this. he has huffing and puffing his portraying. his army is victorious, and unbeatable curse has shown that it's not the case that's been at least one use of this operation. uh so uh the it is the a psychological what they are being waged against the green is against the west to try to convince them that no matter what they do russia will walk over. you queen victoria, that is the i think, where is the main battle right now is continuing. if you bring continues to get enough supplies and its uh, sold you from its uh, uh, allies, if it continues to mount successful recruitment efforts, it will be able to continue, you know, fighting validly against the russian incursion. and once again,

i don't see how the latin appointment will when this move or in the long run, unless you know, we and the west could be too late and started be leaving. uh, you know, his, uh, his lives in the, in okay, is uh, sort of make believe reality that he's trying to impose in us. dmitri, i'll give you the final word. what's the end game now for russia and, and will russia fight to complete victory? how, how do you see this war ending? basically us uh, well the, uh, the west folks about the full truck and, uh, the more adventurous they access all the things. and so such as the the big, the reason to maybe to not going to do for us for a few, maybe 2. so i think we should all come back door assess, that's cool. that's true. female one, both sides. and we should stop talking about waiting before we should stop talking

about uh, a new the whole uh and just the more, uh, you know, way that will the, the process more or less secure. because otherwise, there will be no way the rapture will not pay for my social security because people like more people. i don't know the drum and the story drove by the arrows out of sight. these people are responsible at all. okay, we'll leave it there. thank you. so much and when for a great discussion, dimitri babich peters, i'm a have and been hours. thank you. and thank you too for watching. you can always watch this program again any time by visiting our website that out you 0 dot com for further discussion, go to on facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash a j inside story. and of course, you can join the conversation on x. i'll handle is that a j inside story for me, for the back to boy in the whole team here in del hi. thank you for watching by from the

too often of kind of style. and this put trains through the prism of war. but there were many of the kind of stuff thanks to the brave individuals who risk their lives to protect it from destruction. an extraordinary film archives funding for decades reviews the forgotten foods of the country's mode in history. the forbidden real part to the communist revolution on a, just as the world economy, those strikes are those with a strong result. indonesia is where supposed to be. it's all about the right place for your business to get off the ground. right. otherwise,

with this strategic downstream industry on your better tomorrow the . the hello, i'm sammy's a. then this is the news live from dell coming up in the next 60 minutes. is ro widens it's a salt on the occupied westbank. 33 palestinians have been killed in 8 days. long sky line to government protest continue in cities across is through the us accuses.