to they find themselves by the past, the journey is too long, and life and exile is hard to 0 words l duty. oh jerry loan a she venue ok to funds withheld, but now face flows with keep them from retiring with the fund. that is, the she by these bits are pressed on just the both moscow and nato have so called red lines that could trigger out why won't between them. the conflicting ukraine now involves many countries with western weapons being used against russia. so all these red lines shifting and is there a greater risk of a wider war? this is inside store, the

hello and welcome to the program. um for the bad people. russia has launch its biggest attack of the war in ukraine. this. yeah kidding. at least 50 people, while ukrainian forces i've had targets in russia. case forces remain in russian territory and the cooks region. after crossing the border a month ago, the biggest conflict in europe since world war 2 has brought russia and the west, closer than ever to direct confrontation. russia says it's already finding a proxy war against nature whose members are army ukraine, yet the white house has said it doesn't want war with russia. so what are the so called red lines for each side and could breaking them lead to outright war between russia and nato? we'll be discussing this with, i guess shortly. but 1st this report from saw high, right. the body bags carried away in these city and west and ukraine, close to the border with nato member who was in an injured mind. one of dozens is

comforted or people cry as they look at the enormous damage done to a historical neighborhood. you cease to within cubic medium or movies will move residents of a v. 6 buildings to other places to schools and to medical sensors were damaged. it's tough. several people died in this late. this russian bombing less than 24 hours to the highest number were killed in a single time. this year. on the other side of the country, the city of both of them was hit by 2 ballistic missile, getting more than 50 people and injuring hundreds of what i can do for you just showed that i school that i said it would be felt the comfortable and the once the games are typically one of the world has the power to stop and they said our air defense systems in the south needed to new cranes not in the warehouse somewhere. long grange sykes live, can defend against us instead of needed. now, know,

sometime later, every day of delay, unfortunately, mean small lives last, in ukraine's incursion into the western region of costs nearly a month ago, took russia by complete surprise. the risky cross border move was the most significant and bold since russia invaded ukraine in 2022. ukrainian soldiers have multiplied thousands of villages across more than a 1000 square meters. we want to make this is a new mission that's problematic. an easy as the used top diplomats has pressure, due cranes and some national bike has to allow strikes on targets inside russia. the u. previous to be largely seen as an economic and political trading book is now intensively involved in training. ukrainian soldiers is the most successful 3 mission the do. the unit has have up before it has drained 60000 shelters, and today the ministers agreed on raising the 1st target

275000, having 15000 more by the end of the these yourself. so a good knew who to mo, you refute great news on requesting visual require contracts and not the nation to didn't was all it is of the will. i'm, i'm still somebody got ashton, russian president vladimir putin has again, one's ukraine and its allies. guardianship wasn't much less than what we can't allow hostile structures to be created near us, which had aggressive plans against us and constantly tried to destabilize the russian federation. discussions have been held in the kremlin about changing brushes, nuclear adult trends, to allow the possibility of using nuclear weapons. french president emanuel and the crown has also flutes. it the possibility of western troops being sent to fights and ukraine, dot notions been dismissed by its partners in nate's, or at least now. so the height of all g 0 full inside story. the western

nations have shifted the policy on the supply and use of the weapons by ukraine. the us 1st aim to assist ukraine, but avoid war in russia yet it's now supplied it with around a $175000000000.00 worth of aid, including military supplies since the war began. those honors were 1st restricted to use on ukrainian territory that change in may when present, joe biden said targets in russia could be hit if linked to defending the city of concave. since may france and the u. k. agreed to allow storm shadow besides seeing 2 targets inside russia for defensive purposes instead of solely inside ukrainian territory. germany initially refused to allow its lip at times to be supplied to ukraine time, so that olaf shows you turned on that in january last year. and after the initial reluctance, the us sent a telecom smith sized to the country short range versions given a year ago,

switch to longer range versions in april. that can strike targets 300 kilometers away. the us, as they can be used defensively inside russia. but they've been used to attack russian antics crimea. ukraine has repeatedly asks for advance western aircraft. again after the initial reluctance present, joe biden allowed at 165 digits to be sent with the 1st batch arriving in july. well, let's bring in now, i guess for today's show in moscow, dmitri babich is the deputy for an editor of the come so most kayak profit, the news paper and keith peters. i'm a, a v. as the executive director of the ration democracy initiative and in berlin, ben iris, editor of business news, you're a gentleman, welcome to the program. thank you very much for joining us on each side. story. peter in key. let me start with you. presidente lensky has asked western lead us to

ignore the president pertain, so called red lines after the a time to add on tuesday. ukraine is now asking for more powerful weapons and the right to use and deep into russian territory. first of all, how much concern is it in keith today? is that support may drop as this war, brian, so that's been our, you know, fair renewals sort of the concern and fear is simply because we're dealing with the electrical democracies. unlike a lot of important russia and his allies, iran and china and north korea. and so there are these big a result of electro democracies where different political force has come to power with different ideas about who to support or if to support allies at all. so that's always a concern, will remain a concern. the money is that the us congress has appropriated that few months ago is still there. much will depend on who once again gets elected in november. but be

that as it may, i think nato continues to send signals that it simply cannot afford to let you creating a full at the same time. having said this with this continuing tara against civilian areas today, uh 70 people, dental to be the day before yesterday. both of over 50 people, dad, are you grand needs to book air defense systems as soon as possible and we need to get the finally, this permission to strike at the russian targets deep inside the dory of russia to strike at these new style complexes before they are fired, i was going to ask you, peter, specifically, which weapons does ukraine want today to use inside russia and how is it going to use as well? in fact will. busy already using the same weapons that we're talking about at that comes to me. so, so for a while, and we just need to have a longer range of backgrounds and is so that us would give you quite and has identified jointly with this by western ally is that as many as 2 $150.00 such but

essentially crucial sides inside watch this territory, the neutralization the destructions of which, while not put an end to this, what will significantly hamper russia's continuing designs to destroy ukraine. ok, let's get the russian perspective a dmitri babich and moscow. ukraine has said that the kremlin, the threats of retaliation on nothing but a bluff, and by invading russia itself last month. that as we saw the, the offensive into a curse ukraine. it was thought had crossed all of the red lines of russia. and yet there was no reaction from moscow. why is that as well? i don't think there was no reaction from was full of course the, the sports that i just collated on the side or the opinion down on them. you know, that basically uh, these area was

a peaceful while the peaceful area during these uh, 2 years, uh, 2 years ago in the copy of the war. uh, there was a kind of way agreement, gentlemen's agreement, patient agreements between russia and ukraine. but the main file is going to be for in the box, which is a populate the right. yeah, you said you tried to be a program, a political program for your brain for many years. so uh, the fact that now uh, builder of course, russian board, the regents uh from bottom uh you bring your role sometimes by you see me styles. of course this is bringing new uh, escalation to the sport. just the best buy was that that was buying a deck i most used. i don't think it is brand new site. um. okay, well what, uh, give me sure. let me just ask you what, uh, russia's red lines today. they seem to have shifted so so many times in the course

of this conflict. what is today the ultimate red line for moscow? you know, the broken places that the west continues to crash ship. it has been freshened. russia seems to ignite just fortune us the new red lines. uh, let me remind you that the brushing over the red line stop at the thank you. thank you. cool. and do you make the 3? well, the president clinton, despite the previous promises by the united states and all of that nature would expense. and since then the roster had to move with surrender lines further, further to the east of west rashid, weaker than the nature. so one of the ways for us it to defend itself is do kind of a strong presidential board, just like the united states that presidential powers in greece during the 20th century. the quote was no longer has the follow up to declare war. the president stopped the world without consulting one because it was the same way rush,

the presidential call was increased and read was became bureaus because this is a bottle. the ways to resist the strong, the opponent your don't show you cause you to know a immediately analysis of what people do. but so the red light is to say as a fashion from nash, i want to finish. it is very important in the western positions, there is a very important to predictions at the same time, the west of media and the west, the but it, you should say the property is unpredictable that present which is dangerous. you never know what you will do. and at the same time, they say he's not going to do anything. i just don't be afraid of you. uh, stripe russia deep inside the standard 3. if not have headphones do need to contest before that. nothing will happen in the future. so he's, that sounds, the last ease became in use all assembly. and there's a huge gap between a, for,

up and down the, you know, human eyes in russia. and that actions, which uh, you know, which i've been thinking, se russia, what's the point of resistance was already let us deep, deep into this terrible homepage, which is a tragedy. what roger ban, let me bring you into the conversation. demetrius said that the, the west is behaving irresponsibly. ukraine, as we've heard, is asking for more powerful weapons from, from nato, from western allies. what are the chances that ukraine's allies will do as president zalinski is asking and loose and the restrictions that have been in place so far? it's confused. i mean, you come the one hand you've got, but oh, the foreign minister likes it. of a of the you're saying i get some of the weapons, let them strike dates and save us entire streets. on the other hand, you go to ex other than that, and that's just curious advisors saying that our policy hasn't changed and that we

won't get that commission. and i think to understand what's line behind this, we should be clear about what we mean by red lines. what, what happens if you cross that, what is this ultimate red line? and so i'm starting the, the 2nd week general of night. so said at the very beginning of the concept, we have 2 priorities, best one. well, the 2nd one is to age and crane and not navigate to featured by russian, but the 1st one is to avoid well of 3. and this red line, if you trust a boat, what slang behind is this, the fear a, the rush, it will then attract the nature of the country and spot said level 5, etc. and be the able to use and you get a weapon. and at the moment, the rest of the spring rattling it's new to the cyber peach state goods inside exercise, as these moves and move since they've got a real estate. and they just talking about revising the new to the policy. but what it says is, russia may use the strike nuclear weapons. it's, there is an ex, essential threat to the country. so what do you mean by ex, essential,

i think is working hypothesis. you can basically take that to mean that russia believes is losing. and what is losing my blank, i mean, if there's a complete collapse of the russian army and they are in retreat, that would be losing. but i think at the moment, while the holding back on these long range missiles for ukraine is that the white house escape that losing will look like. if you suddenly start hitting all the fields and missed the last sides, pushing back rushes, forces away from you. frightening border, that's what was the landscape once. okay, verify bashing. jessica, verify what are the so called red lines for, for ne, 2 and the west to date in this conflict? 2 years on, i mean we've seen shifts and changes there's, there's clearly been, uh, some ships that in these red lines in the western position. what is it exactly today? and you know, how, how do you expect to, to evolve and how much,

why has it changed so much? i or what have you looked at the product? see, i mean, i think the team is that, you know, there's a confusion on the west side that the supports to crane and it has been studied creeping escalation on both sides. the weapons use that a new bramble in other shows didn't want to send the method tanks and then days there's been tracking the heroes for ages over the 16. so those have just arrived. they'll be only 10 of them. but that's the point. they've always sent some but not enough, and they sent 10 seconds when zalinski was asking for a 120. and so this creating ex good escalation means we're moving closer to the red lines, but it's always being done on the, on the western side. so that you don't cross this line so you don't provoke to was so that you can continue to say, but we're helping ukraine defend itself. because the favorites are coming in. we'll turn around and say actually you're using nights or weapons to it's high pressure. and therefore, we're entitled sitting outside of the eggs. and this is why the cost incursion was

so scary. because you now have western weapons west and supplied weapons inside russian. and this could come, you know, the permanent could take this as an attack on other russia and then with tiny all night. so i'm, so we've come up again to push the red line back again. but as i said before, i think the ultimate red line for boots is if he thinks russia is losing the war, and then he will return to a at the white house, trying very hard to make sure that that doesn't appear to be here. okay, dimitri, i'll ask you uh in a moment whether you agree with what i've been arrows. so said the bob, this ultimate a red line for, for present, put in. but i just wanted to come back to peter and ask you your thoughts about what dmitri said, he talked about the, the west side thing irresponsibly. and also ask you why it is it that you create a seemingly not been as concerned about russia, so called red lines. what, what is in bold and ukraine? well, it's in bold. is you creating the fact that russia has, you know, every time that the suppose that red lines have been crossed is not really done

anything that it hasn't done all radius since the very start of this war, the stair are continually has rains on our cities. now regardless of course, co, we're not cross can you know what, let me just come back to this idea that did this some kind of terrible red line that's been crossed uh, by ukraine, occupying parts of the car sca territory similar to what to put in is doing elsewhere in ukraine, i mean putting himself recently suggested that he might be ready for the stocks in ukraine withdraws from chris. well, how is it? let me ask you, how is it different from ukraine waging war to reclaim its territory in the don't boss? so when the great media, according to the russian constitution, these areas are already part of russia. so is there some kind of a slight distinction, some kind of a freud in, you know, sort of slip of the rhetoric on the part of putting because you know, according to the constitution, cars, or premier or the don't box. it's all the se in the old model mother,

russian. so it's telling you this even putting realizes that simply according to international law, there's simply no justification for occupying the territory of ukraine, the west, the sooner it stops caring about in your writing to put in his red lines. you know, the sooner he will be motivated to come to the negotiating table unless russians start to feel the brunt of this war and their territory board and it will be unable to wage this war. endlessly, he has enough money to do what kind of long as russians go, can you try to respond to me through your response to what uh peter has just said to, well the guess i'll back straight. oh, you're not safe, you wouldn't have been she. shes either for your brain withdrawals from the course of the, of the opinion person in courses in the region would have said that there wouldn't be knowing which see view of this as a very dangerous as the way to that once the students be, you know,

makes it unable to jesus. uh, i think these are all tragic bread to develop because the soul of these matters for war and the best of gravity. well, and we just kind of been saying before the course that we would have people stations, if your brain agrees that these 4 regions don't you have the, uh, you know, uh part of it and, and, uh, and have so uh, you know, what, what you're actually declared it's terry t. e for the never to be russian center to buys you free site. oh, off to the back against the force region. the origin said that if there were, there will be the book fair and association. the russian position will be part of that and you see the water, the phone so precious because of the many types of pro mania. very useful. so i

think it's not a good idea if, if minds me over the i'm sorry, all day g is always long. extremes so who could find that that could be so there was either states 1000 bobby stable service, but that they said that okay, we crap for him to be the least. we haven't seen them getting us down. it is all supported by the united states. let's bring them all choosing united states that give them kind of a new wow. i think that i was a terrible tragedy. uh, what type of things. so i was in the box, but uh there, there were also several try to get this pull strike. you don't do it too and you live ball if you will. if you'll bring more to lift, the seat is also when you have follow something terrible, make happen before. well, the prize important has threatened to use nuclear power and, and as a ben said earlier that there's a top now in moscow or of revising the nuclear doc trade. it is,

is it clear what form that revision may take? and just how serious is the crime in about this? well, that's the point. uh, there is a point of view. it will show that that'd be due to the rest of the country to use this point. i still wouldn't be with you there tonight. those days will be us about this web of europe. that'd be, that'd be good as many copies are in the use of all what that like to do if something happens. so that's not something you is important for next, but oh, wow, roches actions where you fit what they were all about exercises. you agree with them? there wasn't, there were no view stripes, there was no view use or when they please say, well weapons pressure. just that. remind the wall that tries to remind the wall that it has these weapons, but the shows f, f c. these weapons never existed. municipal uh,

joseph duro using he says that it would be a good idea to leave the restrictions, what strikes the goose pressure? so i understand that the portal is an old man pro $50000.00, awfully, onto molder, but this is very responsible. so the side, the you with the union, the so they have, let me, let me ask ben about this to say that this threat band of nuclear black may. how is it being viewed in western capital in germany, for example, there's a difference. i don't like it, i mean the, there is a fear that the boots in could i use done a stream things every time. and this will mean discussing the boat of being the most of the stream right at the beginning. but each time he surprises, by choosing extreme options. and so possibilities in using and you get away from is non 0 and this graduation is it that suited russia has. these taxable news is kind of small needs, which they could use and it would take out the hold of downtown kids. but it's not

that big and it's actually do the same amount of time. it's just a conventional weapons, but it would be new to them. and so they could do that in as a warning. i think a child says of boots and actually using one a very low because it would make pressure prior forever in history. um, but do you think that we're, we're close to now given the tensions given the developments we seen in the last month or so we closer to a direct confrontation between, you know, the countries that are helping ukraine today and russia? well, i already said this being creeping escalation on the lines, the getting pushed back. um the lights spun. i mean, i'm looking to understand this thing with the nuclear weapons and the real danger is not that that he's going to use one is the possibility and then the effect that has and so you're asking about the effected by then independent washington. the effect of the possibility has being this paso aid, so you cranes, some of them have enough because in effect, the white house has imposed

a no fly by and over russia and ukraine. where is russia is as we saw last week, with the massive miss authorized, russia has freedom to bomb anything in any way in your brain that it wants to. and why would this move to give us part of this for this policy, refuse permission to use these long range missiles inside rush app, legitimate sockets that are firing themselves into ukraine. the reason is, is spelled at this escalation management policy. yeah, well, thank you ben. what, what's the risk today, peter, of, of the war spreading at engulfing more countries and what direction is ukraine going to take the war? now? we've seen a uh cabinet restructuring, a major cabinet with shuffle after the the attacks recently. where is the, the war going as far as the credit is concerned. uh yes, uh, well, uh listen, uh, the situation in the east of ukraine in the den boss is very uh, continues to be very difficult, etc. but it as difficult as it is. uh,

keep in mind letting me put in his goals remains with the maximum is and that's controlling the entire territory of ukraine making and creating the failed state, etc. so simple a simply uh, i'll just say that militarily, black republican has shown that 3rd. ready 3rd year into this more he's unable to do this. he has huffing and puffing his portraying. his army is victorious, and unbeatable curse has shown that it's not the case that's been at least one use of this operation. uh so uh the it is the a psychological what they are being waged against the green is against the west to try to convince them that no matter what they do russia will walk over. you queen victoria, that is the i think, where is the main battle right now is continuing. if you bring continues to get enough supplies and its a soldier from its allies, if it continues to mount successful recruitment efforts, it will be able to continue, you know, fighting validly against the russian incursion. and once again,

i don't see how latin appointment will win this war in the long run, unless you know, we and the west could be too late and started be leaving this, you know, his, his lives in the, in all his sort of make believe reality that he's trying to impose in us, dmitri, i'll give you the final word. what's the end game now for russia and, and will russia fight to complete victory? how, how do you see this war ending? basic uh uh, well the, uh, the west folks about the, the, the full truck and, uh, the more adventurous they access all the things so such as the, what was the big with the recent quote to maybe, to not long before i show up for you, maybe 2, so i think we should, oh, uh, come back door, assess us. oh, that's true. female. one, both sides. and we should stop talking about waiting before we should stop talking

about uh, a new the whole uh and just the more, uh, you know, way that will the, the process more or less secure. because otherwise, there will be no way the rapture will not pay for my social security because people like 4 people, i don't know tom and i'm sorry, go by the arrows out of sight these people. are you responsible at all? okay, we'll leave it there. thank you. so much and when for a great discussion, dimitri babich peters, i'm a have and been hours. thank you and thank you too for watching. you can always watch this program again, any time by visiting our website that alters here a dot com for further discussion. go to on facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash a j insights story. and of course, you can join the conversation on x a handle. is that a j inside story for me, for the back to boy in the whole team here in del hi. thank you for watching bye. from the

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the pacific 101 east on. i'll just see around the tom cherry johnston and the top stores now just now. and it's really mich operation occupied. westbank has entered a 2nd week, is ready, defense minister, you, i've got out as cold on the military, to use its full strength to strike a protestant in finances in the area of huston in prison. the society says is very forces detained, more than 30 people, shooting an incursion into the joseph county. north of vermont up is what a minute tr. officials say that targeting protestant ends today, but the for involved and recent attacks against is very civilians is very forces

have also been targeting the city of to coming limited. triple those have been used to destroy roads. they've been reports of guns.