[000:00:00;00] news . ringback the post moscow, and nato have so called red lines that could trigger out why we all between them. the conflicting ukraine now involves many countries with western weapons being used against russia. so all these red lines shifting, and is there a greater risk of a wider war? this is inside store,

the hello and welcome to the program. i'm fairly bad people. russia has launch its biggest attack of the war in ukraine. this. yeah kidding. at least 50 people, while ukrainian forces i've had targets in russia. case forces remain in russian territory in the kirk's region. after crossing the border a month ago, the biggest conflicts in europe since world war 2 has brought russia and the west, closer than ever to direct confrontation. russia says it's already fighting a proxy war against nature whose members are army ukraine, yet the white house has said it doesn't want war with russia. so what are the so called red lines for each side and could breaking them lead to outright war between russia and nato? we'll be discussing this with, i guess shortly. but for us, this report from saw high, right. the body bags carried away in the v. a city in weston ukraine,

close to the border with nato member holding an injured man. one of dozens is comforted or people cry as they look at the enormous damage done to a historical neighborhood. you ceased to within me, more movies will move residents of a v 6 buildings to other places to schools and to medical centers were damaged. it's tough. several people died in this late. this russian bombing less than 24 hours to the highest number were killed in a single attack. this year. on the other side of the country, the city of both of them was hit by 2 ballistic missiles, getting more than 50 people and injuring hundreds of what i need to avoid a show. do i scroll down? actually it will be held accountable. and once the games are typically one of the world who has the power to stop with based at our air defense systems and the sales needed in ukraine, not in the warehouse somewhere,

long grange sykes that can defend against us instead. or i need to now know sometime later, every day of delay, unfortunately, mean small lives. last, in ukraine's incursion into the western region of costs nearly a month ago, took russia by complete surprise. the risky cross border move was the most significant and bold since russia invaded ukraine in 2022. ukrainian soldiers have multiplied thousands of villages across more than a 1000 square meters. we want to make this is a new mission that's problematic and easy as the used top diplomats has pressure, due cranes and some national bi cuz to allow strikes on targets inside russia. the u. previous to be largely seen as an economic and political trading book is now intensively involved in training. ukrainian soldiers is the most successful trading mission. the do, the unit has have up before it has drained 60000 soldiers and today the

ministers agreed on raising the 1st target 275000, having 15000 more by the end of the stages of so a good knew who to mo, you refute crane these are requesting visual require contracts and not the nation to didn't was all it is of the will. i'm, i'm still somebody got this them. russian president vladimir putin has again, one's ukraine and its allies. good issue if wasn't literally so we can't allow hostile structures to be created near us, which has aggressive plans against us and constantly tried to destabilize the russian federation. discussions have been held in the kremlin about changing brushes, nuclear adult trends to allow the possibility of using nuclear weapons, french president emanuel. my crown has also floats at the possibility of western troops being sent to flights and ukraine. notions been dismissed by its partners in nate's,

or at least now. so the height of all g 0 full inside story. the western nations have shifted the policy on the supply and use of the weapons by ukraine. the us 1st aim to assist ukraine, but avoid war in russia yet it's now supplied it with around a $175000000000.00 worth of aid, including military supplies since the war began. those honors were 1st restricted to use on of ukrainian territory that change in may when present, joe biden said targets in russia could be hit if linked to defending the city of concave. since may france and the u. k. agree to allow storm shadow besides seeing 2 targets inside russia for defensive purposes instead of solely inside ukrainian territory. germany initially refused to allow its lip at times to be supplied to ukraine. transfer olaf shows you turned on that in january last year. and after the initial reluctance, the us sent

a telecom smith sized to the country short range versions given a year ago, switched to longer range versions in april. that can strike targets 300 kilometers away. the us says they can't be used to offensively inside russia. but they've been used to attack russian antics crimea. ukraine has repeatedly asks for advance, west and aircraft. again after the initial reluctance present, joe biden allowed f. 165 digits to be sent with the 1st batch arriving in july. or let's bring in now i guess for today's show in moscow, dimitri babich is the deputy for an editor of the comes most kayak profit, the news paper and keith peters. i'm a, a v. as the executive director of the racial democracy initiative and in berlin. ben iris, editor of business news, you're a gentleman, welcome to the program. thank you very much for joining us on each side. story,

peter in key. let me start with you. presidente lensky has asked western leaders to ignore president 14, so called red lines after the attack to it. on tuesday, ukraine is now asking for more powerful weapons and the right to use and deep into russian territory. first of all, how much concern is it in keith today is that support may drop as this war brian song that's been. busy you know, every, all sort of concern and fear is simply because we're dealing with the electrical democracies on like a lot of important russia and his allies, iran and china and north korea. and so there are these big result, electro democracies where different political force has come to power with different ideas about who to support or if to support allies at all. so that's always a concern, will remain a concern. the money is that the us congress has appropriated a few months ago,

is still there. much will depend on who once again gets elected in november. but be that as it may, i think nato continues to send signals that it simply cannot afford to let you creating a full at the same time. having said this with this continuing tara against civilian areas today. uh 70 people deadline will be the day before yesterday. both of all over 50 people, dad, are you grand needs to both air defense systems as soon as possible and we need to get the finally, this permission to strike at russian targets deep inside the dory of russia to strike at these new style complexes before they are fired, i was going to ask you, peter, specifically, which weapons does ukraine want today to use inside russia and how is it going to use as well? is that well. busy are they using the same weapons that we're talking about at that comes to me? so, so for one, we just need to have a longer range of backgrounds and this so that us would give you quite an has

identified jointly with this by western ally is that as many as 250 such, but essentially crucial sides inside rush. this territory, the neutralization the destructions of which, while not with an end to this, what will significantly hamper russia's continuing designs to destroy ukraine. ok, let's get the russian perspective a dmitri babich and moscow. ukraine has said that the kremlin is the threats of retaliation on nothing but a bluff and by inviting russia itself last month. that as we saw the, the offensive into curse view. creating a was thought had crossed all of the red lines of russia. and yet there was no reaction for moscow. why is that? well i don't think there was no reaction from was full of course the, the sport of the collision or on the side or the you're bringing down that them, you know, that basically uh, these area was

a peaceful while. the peaceful area during these uh, 2 years, uh, 3 years ago and a copy of the war. uh, there was a kind of weather agreement gentlemen's agreement, patient agreements between russia and ukraine. but the main fire is going to be 4 in the box, which is a populate the right. yeah, you process and you try to be a program, a political program for your brain for many years. so the fact that now builder of course to ration board, the regents uh from the bottom uh your opinion, roles sometimes, but you see these files. of course this is bringing new escalation to the sport. just the best buy was that that was buying a deck. i miss you so i don't think it is brand new. sorry, the give me your, let me just ask you what a rushes red lines today. they seem to have shifted so so many times in the course

of this conflict. what is today the ultimate red line for moscow of the places that the west continues to crash of ship. it has been freshen. russia seems to ignite just fortune us the new red lines. uh, let me remind you that the brushing over the red line stop at the thank you. thank you for the 3. well, brandon, please, despite the previous promises the by the united states and all that they would expect. uh and uh since then the roster has to move with red lines further and further to the east. of course, around she's weaker then they go. so one of the ways brush it to defend itself is do kind of a strong presidential board, just like the united states that presidential powers in greece during the 20th century. the quote was no longer has the follow up to declare war. the

president stopped the world without consulting for the congress. it was the same way in russia. presidential call was increased and read was became good because this is a bottle of ways to uh, resist the strong belt pulling up your dog. uh, show your cops, you know, uh, you know, uh what you will do, but so the website is to say as a fast one for me that i want to be if it is very important. uh, in the western position, there is a very important prediction. at the same time, the west, the media and the west, the but it, you should say the property is unpredictable that present which is dangerous. you never know what you will do. and at the same time, they say he's not going to do anything. i just don't be afraid of you stripe russia deep inside is 33. if not have headphones do need to cars before that. nothing will happen in the future. so he's that sounds the last ease became in use

all chevrolet. and there's a huge gap between a, for, up and down the, you know, human eyes in russia. and that actions which, uh, you know, which i've been thinking. se, fracture was never, definitely your resistance, was already let us deep, deep into this terrible homepage, which is a tragedy for both roger ban. let me bring you into the conversation. dmitri said that the, the west is behaving irresponsibly. ukraine, as we've heard, is asking for more powerful weapons from, from nato, from western allies. what are the chances that ukraine's allies will do as president zalinski is asking a noose and the restrictions that have been in place so far? it's confused. i mean, you can the one hand, you've got the foreign minister effects of a of the you're saying i get some of the weapons, let them strike dates and see russian, terry straits. on the other hand, you go to ex other than that,

and that's just curious advisors saying the policy hasn't changed and that we want to get that permission. and i think to understand what's line behind this, we should be clear about what we mean by red lines. what, what happens if you cross that? what is this ultimate red line? and then some stuff in the 2nd week general of night. so said at the very beginning of that comes, but we have 2 priorities, best one. well, the 2nd one is to the agent. grain and, and not that it gets featured by russian. but the 1st one is to avoid, well, we'll have 3 and this red line, if you cross the, what sign behind is this, the fear a, the rush, it will then attract the nature of the country and spot said level 5, etc. and be the able to use a nuclear weapon. and at the moment the rest as being rattling, it's new to the cyber peach state goods. since i've exercises these moves and move, since they've got a real estate and they just talking about revising the new to the policy. but what it says is russia may use the strike nuclear weapons. it's, there isn't

a big suspension right to the country. so what do you mean by ex, essential and i think is working hypothesis, you can basically take that to mean that russia believes is losing. and what is losing my blank. i mean, if there's a complete collapse of the russian army and, and retrieve that would be losing. but i think at the moment, while the holding back on these long range missiles for ukraine is that the white house escape that losing will look like. if you suddenly start hitting all the fields and missed the last sides, pushing back rushes, forces away from you. frightening border, that's what is the landscape watts ok. just to verify that. and just to clarify, what are the so called red lines for, for ne, 2 and the west today in this conflict, 2 years on, i mean, we've seen shifts and changes there's, there's clearly been, uh, some ships that in these red lines in the western position. what is it exactly

today? and you know, how, how do you expect to, to evolve and how much, why has it changed so much? i, what have you looked at the product? see, i mean, i think theme is that, you know, there's a confusion on the west side that the supports to crane and that has been studied, creeping escalation on both sides and the weapons. are you said a new grand bullion of the shows didn't want to send the method tanks and then days there's been tracking the hills for ages over the 16. so those have just arrived. they'll be only 10 of them. but that's the point. they've always sent some but not enough, and they sent 10 seconds when zalinski was asking for a 120. and so this creating ex good escalation means we're moving closer to the red lines, but it's always being done on the, on the western side. so that you don't cross this line so you don't provoke who was so that you can continue to say, but we're helping ukraine defend itself. because the favorites are coming in will turn around and say, actually you're using nights or weapons to attack pressure. and therefore, we're entitled sitting outside of the eggs. and this is why the curse in cousin was

so scary. because you now have western weapons west and survive weapons inside russian. and this could come, you know, the permanent could take this as an attack on other russia and then with tiny all night. so i'm, so we've come up again to push the red line back again. but as i said before, i think the ultimate red line for foods is if he thinks russia is losing the war, and then he will return to a other white house trying very hard to make sure that that doesn't appear to be not okay. dimitri, i'll ask you uh in a moment whether you agree with that. what i've been arrows for said there by this ultimate a red line for, for present, put in, but i just wanted to come back to peter and ask you your thoughts about what dimitri said, he talked about the west side thing irresponsibly. and also ask you, why is it that ukraine, assuming the not been as concerned about russia, so called red lines? what, what is in bold and ukraine a well, it's in bold. is you creating the fact that russia has, you know,

every time that the suppose that red lines have been crossed is not really done anything that it hasn't done already. since the very start of this, more the stair are continually has rains on our cities. now regardless of course, co, we're not cross can you know what, let me just come back to this idea that this some kind of terrible red line just been crossed uh by ukraine, occupying parts of the car sca territory similar to what to put in is doing elsewhere in ukraine, i mean putting himself recently suggested that he might be ready for the stocks in ukraine withdraws from chris. well, how is it? let me ask you, how is it different from ukraine waging war to reclaim its territory in the doing boss of the crate me, according to the russian constitution? these areas are already part of russia. so is there some kind of a slight distinction? so i'm kind of a fairly d and you know, sort of slip of the rhetoric on the part of putting because you know,

according to the constitution, cars, or prime year or the don't box, it's all the se in the old, martha's mother, russian. so it's telling you that even putting realizes that simply according to international law, there's simply no justification for occupying the territory of ukraine, the west, the sooner it stops caring about in your writing to put in his red lines. you know, the sooner he will be motivated to come to the negotiating table are less russian start to feel the bronx of this war in their territory board and it will be unable to wage this war. and this lee, he has enough money to do with that. as long as the russians get, can you try to respond to me during your response to what uh peter has just said to, well the guess i'll back straight. oh, you did not say you were having cheeses either for your brain withdrawals from forced out of the opinion. person included in the worst region would have said that there wouldn't be knowing which see view of this as

a very dangerous as the way to that. what's the, uh, is it in the, you know, makes it unable to hold the patients. uh, i think these are all tragic bread to develop once before was the soul of these matters for war and the best of gravity. well, and we just kind of been saying before the courses that we would have people have a few brain agrees that these 4 regions don't as dock. uh, i got all of that part over here and, and uh, and have so, uh, you know, what, what you're actually declared, it's debbie. p. e for the never to be russian center t buys usually site a mile off to the attack against the force region. the wilton said that if there were, there will be people, patients with the patients, the russian position will be part of that. and you to the water,

the full so precious with a are that many types of pro mania, very officials. i think it's not a good idea if, if minds me over the, i'm sorry, all day g is always long extremes. so who could find that? that could be so they would either states the proposal body stable service, but that they said that okay, we crap for him to be the least. we haven't seen them getting us down. it is all supported by the states. let's bring the more to the 9th of states that give them kind of a new i think that i was a terrible tragedy. uh thousands bought but the there were also several try to get this pull straight. you don't do it too. and you live ball. if you will, if you'll bring more to lift the features, also when you have bought something terrible, makes happens to the full well the prize important has threatened to use nuclear power and, and as a been said earlier, there's

a top now in moscow or of revising the nuclear doctrine is, is it clear what form that revision may take and just how serious is the crime in about this? well, that's the point. uh, there is a point of view. it will show that that'd be doing that right. she's up to the test country to use this point. i still wouldn't be due to the states. what would be us about this web of europe? that'd be, that'd be use my new products are i'd be curious about what that like to do if something happens. so that's not something new in the important for next, but oh, wow. roches actions where you fit by what they were all about exercises. you agree with them? there wasn't, there were no view stripes, there was no real use or when they replaced a web browser just to remind the wall to try streamlines. well, it has these websites, but the website shows m f c. these web has never existed. i mean listen to uh,

joseph burro. he's in, he says that it would be a good idea. believe restrictions what strikes the goose pressure? well, i understand that the portal is an old man pro 50 the monthly bunch of older, but this is very responsible. oh, the side the you would be union this. okay, let me, let me ask ben about this to say that this threat been of no clear black may. how is it being viewed in western capital in germany for example, there's a difference. i don't like it. i mean that there is a fear that the boots in could he's done a stream things every time. and this will mean just cussing the boat of being the most of the stream right at the beginning. but each time he's surprised it is by choosing extreme options. and so possibility is in using and you get it by putting is non 0. and this graduation is that, that suit of russia has these types of bone use. this kind of small needs which they could use and they would take out the hold of downtown kids,

but it's not that big and it's actually to the same amount of time. it's just a conventional weapons, but it would be new to them. and so they do that in as a warning. i think the chances of boots are actually using one a very low because it would make pressure prior forever in history for us. but the same thing that we're, we're close to now given the tensions, given the developments we seen in the last month or so we closer to a direct confrontation between, you know, the countries that are helping ukraine today and russia. well, i already said this being creeping escalation and the lines are getting pushed back . um the light spun. i'm looking to understand this thing with the nuclear weapons and the real danger is not that that he's going to use one is the possibility and then the effect that has and so you're asking about the effects here by then and in washington. the effect of the possibility has being this paso aid, so you cranes some but another enough because in effect,

the white house has imposed a no fly by and over russia on ukraine. where is russia is as we saw last week, with a massive miss authorized, russia has freedom to bomb anything in any way in your brain that he wants to. and why would this move the us part of this, the best policy refuse permission to use these long range missiles in, inside russia, at legitimate sockets, that are firing themselves into ukraine. the reason is, is spelled at this escalation management policy. yeah, well, thank you ben. what, what's the risk today? peter of, of the war spreading and engulfing more countries and, and what direction is ukraine going to take the war? now? we've seen a uh cabinet restructuring, a major cabinet with shuffle after the the attacks recently. where is the, the war going as far as the credit is concerned. uh yes, uh, well, uh listen, uh, the situation in the east of ukraine into doing boss is very uh continues to be very difficult, etc. but as difficult as it is, uh,

keep in mind letting me put in his goals remains with the maximum of this. and that's controlling the entire territory, the grain making, you create a failed state, etc. so simple a simply uh, i'll just say that militarily, black rep wouldn't have shown that thursday the 3rd year into this more he's unable to do this. he has huffing and puffing his portraying his army is a big. busy he is, and unbeatable curse has shown that it's not the case that's been at least one use of this operation. uh so, uh, the it is the, a psychological what they are being waged against. the green is against the west to try to convince them that no matter what they do, rush. busy we'll walk over you, queen victoria's, that is the thing where the main battle right now is continuing. if you bring continues to get enough supplies and it's a soldier from its allies, if it continues to mount successful recruitment efforts, it will be able to continue, you know, fighting validly against the russian incursion. and once again,

i don't see how the lighting important will win this war in the long run. unless you know, we and the west could be too late and started be leaving this. you know, his, his lives in the, in ok is sort of make believe, reality that he's trying to impose in us a dmitri. i'll give you the final word. what's the end game now for russia and, and will russia fights with complete victory? how do you see this war ending basically, as uh, well the uh, the west folks about the, the, the full progression and the, the more adventurous they access all the thing. and so such as the one of the big but the reason for who maybe to not long before i send a form to maybe to so i think we should all come back door assess, that's cool. that's true. female one,

both sides. and we should stop talking about waiting before we should stop talking about uh, a new the whole uh and you know, the more, uh, you know, way that will the, the process more or less secure. because otherwise, there will be no web browser will not take it from my social security because people like all around people. i don't know the drum and the story drove by the arrows out of sight. these people are responsible. okay, we'll leave it there. thank you. so much and when for a great discussion, dimitri babbage, peters on my and ben hours, thank you and thank you to for watching. you can always watch this program again, any time by visiting our website that out you 0 dot com for further discussion, go to on facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash a j insights story. and of course, you can during the conversation on x a handle, is that a j inside story for me, for the back to bar and a whole team here in del hi. thank you for watching bye. from

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