welcome to simmons, and exclude does the redesigns luxury living trusting else future today, we create showing no promises african nations $15000000.00 in loans and funding. it is summers of leaders in badging. it underlines the countries position is the confidence number one investor. what does this investment means? africa, china, and it's western rivals. this is inside store, the airline james phase trips abroad, usually mean expenditure for most of us. but african leaders will be coming home from a summit in beijing with purchase of more than $50000000000.00 in loans and funding

from the chinese host. more than 50 african nations or the forum on china, africa cooperation summit with the punches underlining, china is position as africa's top investor to the detriment of the us and former europe and colonial powers. china says this investment will create a 1000000 jobs and fund a wide range of infrastructure and other projects. but that, that comes with the cost to, with some countries anxious to restructure we payments from previous funding. so what's in this for both sides and what the such huge investment mean for african states political relationships with china and also for western competitors like me us, we'll discuss all of this with our panel of guests in a moment. but 1st, this report from cyber, colorado, a taste of what's on off the from badging for leaders from across africa. and to show the chinese influence of spreading across the continents africa need is joined

chinese president jiang paying it's a forum to discuss everything from investments to trade, education, minute tree support, and infrastructure development. and with china being africa's largest trading partner in credits or in recent years, it was an opportunity for doing things to decry what's he called a new era. we live site yet. over the next 3 years, the chinese government is willing to provide financial support amounting to $50000000000.00 to africa, and it means meaning showing way light looking to the future. i propose raising china is bilateral relations with the old african countries that have diplomatic ties to the level of strategic relationships. seasons all g said relations between china are enough for call are in the best period in history and separately pledged another $280000000.00 in military and food aids box. collectively, nations on the continent or i d, a china billions of dollars,

and beijing has been accused of lowering governments into taking out huge loans to build infrastructure projects that don't always benefit local people, live raising money for so many african states that relief as an urgent imperative to give decent countries economies of vital economic breathing space. chinese investment has also been opposed by many african people who say it leads to projects that damage the health and the environment. push properties that are frequently to support china's funding. and she's promised to create a 1000000 new jobs. we are driven by a desire to achieve shed prosperity a while recognizing our individual develops mental aspirations. joanna has been africa's largest trading partner for 15 years and assignments comes as western countries are imposing heavy terrorist on chinese in ports. critics,

a beijing is engaging in the modern form of colonialism. the china are and says, it's an advocate for the global south as an opportunity to be an alternative trading pot. and that's a countries like the us. so the height of all to 0 for inside story the, the wallets bring, you know, i guess to discuss the whole list for today's inside story in beijing. honda, right. a is the c o development re imagined and independent development consultant . so she's also a full of diplomat and economist in cape town, solution i do is a senior research associate at the institute for global dot logan has written 2 volumes on africa, china relations, and also in beijing. china timing is a senior fellow of the ty, her institute, thank to all of you for joining us on today's program. if i can start with, you know, show you of that in south africa, you are watching the events. where are the other 2 panelists off invasion and give

us an idea of how people are viewing this? the temperature right now is showing that africa relationship from your view point . i think it's very upbeat from a political economic perspective, particularly from government, very much about the positive kind of engagement that this focus brings, both to south africa, to by look for level, as well as the continental kind of engagement. president of a pause that has announced that he sees this relationship flushing a talked about the age of reading step, assigned as part of the by level. i don't think there's a general sense of optimism from the government in terms of the fact that this is the 1st kind of big thing for the newly constituted government that came into being often to be a national elections, a government of national unity, which includes ministers, from the democratic united 6 was the form of opposition of the continental perspective. i think that it's a similar kind of feel, but i think there's also a sense that below the kind of surface outside of the kind of the could not be

political business of architecture. there's a sense that people are beginning to also think about this relationship much more in the context of the discussions that are happening on regular stations from where i said of being invited to discuss this in local media as well as the continental media. okay. i know tell us a little bit about these summit because it's not a one off. these are beginning on for some years. in fact, they take places understand every 3 years. but this is a big one because the last one didn't happen properly was book show because of cove it and my understanding is the, the chinese are there. and then on the other side, every single nation in africa, apart from the small country of best smart tv. because that still recognizes taiwan as, as an entity, a not showing uh, um, tell to tell us about the summit's and how important they are. well,

to put it in context, these began in 2000, so 2001 the china is joining the w t o. so this is prior to china as rapid economic rise. and the closest felt with africa was due to the fact that i forgot have supported china in the us and, and also in its struggles to be independent and vice versa. china had been very active and promoting the independence for many of the african country sources, including south africa. so you go from that point to china has taken on a position where they are. you started off as a minor trade player and today they are the largest trade player with africa. it is unbalanced, but they are trying to capitalize on the fact that this has been a long, slow, steady upward journey over 10 years between belgian road initiative. and that, you know, these summits were the last 2 summits they gave it weighs $60000000000.00 or pledge, $60000000000.00 has really made a huge difference in africa in terms of inter connectivity. and do johnny wants to

put this and says look, this should be the basis of all future relations and it's based on security development and respect. uh huh. and um, what i'm not sitting in this chair, my other job route is always covering global diplomacy. so i spend a lot of time going to summit and you'll see the banquet. so you see the settlement is you'll see some pump, but lots of summits don't have it and then the concrete coming out to them. but this already, we've had some pretty big announcements. how, how significant do you think what we've heard is we haven't, i think probably the most significant announcement is of the equivalent of $50000000000.00 us dollars in financing to the asking concerned. and that's no just lending 10000000000, and that is for and right to investment, which was certainly a kiosk, from african countries, but lending also, mathis,

this is scenario that china has really stood out for african countries in terms of infrastructure. finance. i think be a real feeling is that, well, this summit and suggest is that china is but china is ready. the quite a bit. pandemic did create some challenges, especially in terms of creating a pipeline of good infrastructure projects to invest into. but china saying, look, even if we have some economic issues, we still see an interest in africa and perhaps our interest is even stronger now. in the african continent even see that through the upgrading and political ties with african countries. um, so it's a really a, i think us initial put it up beat. okay. i know you as we have heard some very bold announcements, so come out of beijing in recent hours. there are some who watch the summits and does he say they've been going on for 20 years now? who say there was a bit of a lack of transparency about whether things that are announced the summit server

actually achieved. is that a fat criticism? does that need to be more transparency? well, the transparency is in the plant. everything that goes into these announcements that you need. this is not like america where they dream and up on the back of a napkin. these are very carefully orchestrated. there are lot of me, i know, i know i mostly, i know i'm not asking you about today. i'm asking you, you know, in a few years time, whether all of these things that probably have been promised. all right, so you're going to be achieved. where is the transparency that to well is the transparency is between the, the actual numbers that are being put out and whether or not there are tangible results at the end of it. and i think good at the fact that you have 53 out of 54 countries representative that this is fairly clear. and it echoes a 152 countries that came to the belgian roads temp your anniversary. so, i mean, clearly these countries believe that china has something to offer and they are

doing it, have schools, hospitals, roads, the electricity projects, and the branching out and to making sure that advert good starts developing its own capabilities in terms of manufacturing. one of the low issues is that africa has lots of resources, but it doesn't develop them and add value. and as a result, it gets a very slim margin of the total profit. so china is providing the machine ready so that they can start doing their own processing as well as sharing um, you know, high tech development. so through the co processes and joint ventures, this is something completely new and africa because this is not something your brother has been willing to do before. okay, what is we said? china is africa's biggest trading partner. and if you look at total trade between china and africa, it exceeded $280000000000.00 in the last year. let's look at some of the details. according to the united nations,

south africa is showing his biggest trade partner on the continent that combined business was worth $35900000000.20. the country was i bought more chinese goods than any of the african nation. trying. the 2nd biggest trade relationships with and go look valued at the $27300000000.00. the country has abundance of all the minerals, including diamonds, next to nigeria, with a joint trade valued at 20 full $1000000000.00. the democratic republic of congo shed trade was nearly $22000000000.00 in north africa, egypt as rapid, expanding its infrastructure, and has more than $18000000000.00 worth of joint business with china. and facing straight relationship with tenuous stretches back over the decades. and is the biggest in east africa with $8500000000.00. so new shot, those are very, very impressive things. but it is fair to say that the balance in trade, in most cases, is massively in china, is paper. is it not as well?

that's one of the issues that cause of trouble pose a has brought up and i says, and it is part of the, the, the, the discussion i think are the great areas with regard to this focus that the trade deficit tends to kind of be in a in a way doesn't necessarily fee but effort, this kind of venue edition and integration to the value of trade. i don't think part of that challenge is really dealing with that trade because that's a deficit. and what is the value of distribution of production that value factor? now that was one of the key issues that was spoken about both. i think at the bye, left for level with countries, but also mentioned in president choose. you can speech that manufacturing and allowing for a number of goods until with almost a 0. carol's big issue with regard to value added production. and that's a big question for most african countries, because the more you actually start to manufacture us, to actually getting into the venue edition of demand and supply chain. and that comes with this phone kind of gray areas in terms of the catalogs,

etc. one of the key issues of, from what we seen in the south african discussion with trinity, she was a role specifically in fight to send a cri issues regarding our agriculture products in particular, beef with regard to the foot and mouth disease. and that and itself was seen as a winful setup because with the chinese government had decided that it won't actually create an entire kind of impact on all of a good culture. exports of beef because it's one of our centers that is producing b has a foot and mouth disease that isolated and of course going forward. that's part of the agreement. but i think the real big area for, for, for, for monitoring and evaluation is around the impact of this in the next 2 years. and particularly, what are some of the projects that may be tangled with projects from 3 to 21 and previously. so kind of, if we look back over the last decade, china has pulled more than $120000000000.00. and in terms of hydropower plans, railways, roads of 35 major ports. how is it, how is it transformed?

how is it transformed the these countries will some of these countries? well, i think most african countries that have boards from china in order to fund infrastructure, the vast majority have for from large and small projects can easily attend us to just how important those infrastructure projects are. my country can near for example, you know, we have this new i'll, well, now, no, no, so new starting to gauge well way for instance, between never be a member. so it has as massively improved trade in logistics as well as passenger trips between the opium on buses. so there is an obvious, effective infrastructure and i think that's one of the aspects that makes kind of china is chinese engagement. so interesting and useful. let's just do this, let me stop you that how know? because you mentioned this right away project which is an amazing project. it seems,

linking mombasa and not really, but then it was supposed to go further and apparently the right way long just ended up in a field because because of both uganda and we were supposed to go to, you've gotten to both you kind of and, and kenya well then while we're struggling with the financing and we've seen your country recent street protests because the government proposes pose new taxes to fund the budget deficit. i mean, there's problems here. can you chose a lot of money to china? there's a downside to not sure let me just create 2 in terms of the end of the railway where it's got to is it's to a 9 to and my voucher. and then my logo, it goes all places where there's plenty of things going on, including a dry port in my show, which then they're able to ship things like cuts, flowers into one bathroom and so on. so that's still some productivity, even though it's just within can you at the moment. but it was definitely meant to be a regional infrastructure project that special. and there were still discussions as

to how kind of can support the financing. but the way that many large costs buddha infrastructure projects are done is by breaking them up. it's completely not unusual. we think that let me imagine that it should be different, but there should be a way of making sure that these kinds of infrastructure products a go across country should be done at the same time. but it would be doing something completely unusual. now it's of the usual kind of financial system that if that, if china starts to do that, hopefully it will. but it hasn't been done yet. i know the time to issues with the test. so i'm going to bring in the now people do talk about a debt trap. in some scenarios. is china worried in any way that countries not being able to afford that debt, please. and this positive relationship between china and these african nations. and it's trying to think of doing things in some cases in a different way. well, they are doing things differently. uh right now. i mean they, they have to learn the hard way that when you have a government to government loan,

when the party that's controlling that government goes out of power. the only thing you know for certain is that the opposition coming in is going to say that that loan was messed up and necessary unnecessary or subject to corruption or they're going to blame in essence, china. so the new model is they do it like a bank, or they look at the feasibility of the project in the front of the project itself based on its abilities supported. so these are the kind of approaches that a china has had to make. um, it's learned its lessons in terms of dead trapped promises. this is a narrative that's uh, sad and repeat it often. but the fact is, china only has 12 percent of the total african debt. and quite frankly, it's a 2.7 percent versus the private debt that's out there, which is have 5 percent. so you tell me where the real debt trap is. and lastly, you know, let, let us be clear here. um it, china, i can't solve everyone's problems. africa has to decide its own way. the unique

thing about the way that china operates is, it says, it is up to you. we can fund projects, but your economy and how it develops is up to you. we cannot make decisions for you . we're not washington. and certainly not a parts of europe. it's going to have to be something where you, everyone is, meets halfway it's. so there's a, a, when you're a pain in countries. first color was african nations, a large part of it was about plunder, about getting ahold of the rich national results. this is not possibly the case of what china is doing here. it wants to get hold of some of these minimal results is things like lithium, cobalt, manganese nickel, those sorts of things that mean is that part of it to but it can be seen in terms of deception that that's part of what the value changes the box i mean, the critical bundles is really an important value chain and extract to full try that particularly it's rolled in the green technology and of course it's rolled in the electric vehicle market. but what china is also done,

and i've seen this in south africa, is that it's made affordability, and access to affordability to those kinds of goods that have that kind of impact with regard to the electric vehicle markets just in oldest, a low cost sales show that china is vehicles have actually been most popular in south africa. now again, i think that's part of the way in which we need to start thinking about what the value chain is in africa in terms of production that sol suite. the, in the remainder is actually being able to benefit to kate, produce our, our, our own materials into a higher grade of products and, and whether or not that is how we need to do it and how we need to negotiate on those processes around the critical bundle of value change and i think we call and ignore the fact that we do hold in africa quite a large level of deposits, whether it's the co book, the p and whatever. but these are important because it actually brings back to the question of how do you negotiate your relationship with,

try to remember that this is also about the kind of regional connectivity projects that could actually be imported. particularly if you look at and go to and the kind of vito car door which is linked to zambia. know, and to kind of a railway that is being the carpet of goods, a altered zambia into that room. they've been glenda really rate and the meeting up to them to be, to cover the up, you know, and go to that is important, but it's about the negotiations of those visual projects. and i think that's for me . one of the critical areas around focus is that it enables the bilateral, which could then fall into those regional spaces. and it's important for us within the african context, i think as well to realize that china is not up just a bit of a bet on this. yeah. for us, it has to be about how do you also reconfigure the relationship? how i'd like to look at the political dimension to all of this, to mean the un set country general as well. and several times that the world might be fr augmenting into 2 comes,

is there an element of this that china is trying to get these africa nations on each side? the un, for example, being a key for them where there are plenty of votes in the un general assembly from african nations as well. do you in such a general was what's here in beijing, in any case and davis beach today. however, i think what we also see in lots of the documents that have come out is a, is a big emphasis on global south and also some areas. so if you look at the beijing declaration, for example, the areas where there are a lot of koans coming, finding views and consensus between china and african countries. if from issues such as a cause the a and, and on the sort of multi polar world, that seems to be a lot of consensus. so that's interesting in itself. but also it means that for instance,

in this summit we had to china upgrading the relationship with the overall continent to an or with a partnership. that sounds very talking to you, but it does mean of effectively african countries are becoming much more important and time is for him policy. okay, so a new shift we had mentioned that of gaza. your country took out the international courts of justice case against israel. there's real needs and i've spent time in new york in the un general assembly among some african nations with regard to the way that the world looked rushes invasion of ukraine in the way west. the nations put a great deal of pressure on african nations to support ukraine, and then what they see is double standards on a golf. so do you think that's that political dimension that helps china in moving african countries? do you think, do you think garza and ukraine have had a role in this?

well, it certainly seems like the way in which the narratives have played out around the situation with regard to israel and palestine and not the course of the gods of conflict. and role, that's what i have to complete, i mean, so that, that has been afforded for standing up and taking on the number of, of global a little space system. obviously it doesn't as well. that is not always been the kind of impact the sabbatical wanted. yes, it sees itself as, as moving into that space. but i think it also is important for us to realize that within this context of, of, of trying to africa, africa, china, however you want to p c, p 6, the narrative. you have to also remember that part of this challenge is about a country dissolves in africa, where for example, the piece, the ability and development angle is critical to inclusive development. and i think that's part of the extraction that you take from the, the speech chrisman. she's, you king made this to the, to the summit today,

and that was about the product to roll. the piece of development has to be african continent and the role that can be on dependent in there. but it's also the understanding that these conflicts and africa are into and the interest. so the within the state and they have each the spillover effects. look, it's a dad, look at that, look at a pulse of what's happening besides you. i think these are because of the question around how do you define you'll economic state croft, particularly around economic development intrusion. and i suspect part of this is also about what's going to come in in terms of the un system of what's going to come in terms of the summit of the future in it later this month. and of course, the way in which the agenda tickets use fashion. so these are some of the dynamics i think do today out, but okay, so, so let me, let me, let me bring in the, i know the end because we had present. she being mentioned that he gave a speech, of course, he's been running his country for more than a decade longer than any us president gets. but he's being to africa 5 times joe 5

and it hasn't been to africa n. as in taught to him. in fact, he said in may when he met the canyon president, he was going to go in february, next year. i'll think it was re elected. well, that's not going to happen. helping us drop the bowl here. do you think as well? yeah, they have. i mean, if you look at the trade numbers, it's very, very low, and it's under 5 percent of the total trade with africa. it's just been pushed aside. there's been lots of fanfare about doing something about africa, but there's no concrete results. and that's really what beijing is taking advantage of. now keep in mind, this is not a contest. choose china over the us. we're trying to says is don't choose be non aligned. all we ask is that we trade together and that we build the friendships and partnerships that can benefit us. both us is the one who says, ideologically, you're either with us or against us. you're either at the table or on the menu. thank you very much to all 3 of you today. all guess. well,

i know timing how to ride on some new shot and i do if you missed any of our discussion, you could always watch it again by visiting our website, which is 0 dot com. and remember, we always want to hear from you to go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. or you can contact us on this look for us at a inside story. next time on the present. and would you be discussing the us election campaign until then? me, james space and the team here. bye bye. for now. the along the border with thailand. mysterious developments have sprung up. god's watch the perimeter. insuring the prying eyes that kept towns inside say law enforcement officials hack is running fraudulent crypto currency investment schemes. what's taking place in new? why do you certainly indicates that it represents one of the largest crime hubs in

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hello, i'm elizabeth vonem and joe hall with the top stories on alpha 0. residents of jeanine and the occupied westbank have held funeral for the 21 people killed. and israel's 10 day songs from the city, thousands joined. funeral processions on friday. the thoughts is where the forces pulled out functioning as operation involves hundreds of troops and vehicles backed by helicopters and drones. while these pictures show the extent of the damage and destruction in the city, so we'll defense teams. so they're preparing to clear debris and.