a 3 part series excludes the implications of us and people who called lowest the freedom of speech and 1st amendment rights. more about the issue, whatever i'm looking for. some i didn't talk to him quote on which is 0 does and design isn't necessarily lead to anti semitic. israel's one daughter has often led to a completion of the to 10. but how misleading cause this fee, and does it mean anyone criticizing israel's actions? and does it, does aunty smith this is inside story, the other welcome to the program. i'm the clock. so israel's war on dogs that has increased space, anti semitism and anti zionism, world wide. well,

neither time is new. anyone who criticizes israel for his actions and goals are, is often labeled as anti semitic, is ready, late as in particular have conflated condemnation of the response to the mass lab attacks on october the 7th as both anti semitic and anti sinus. unless argue that blaring the difference helps israel undermine any opposition to or rejection of its policies is written as a ques, a weapon, noisy the 2 times to justify its attacks on garza and now the palestinian territories balance with no end in sight to the conflicts in the middle east. what all the dangers over and the fallout from confusing? i think semitism and design isn't. we'll hear from a guest in just a moment. the 1st this report from alex back, it is and design is in the licensed form of anti semitism. the us house of representatives passed a resolution and the same as saying clearly and stanley. this is angie

zionism is. why do you described as the opposition to sign is a nationalist ideology that helped establish the state of israel in 1948. it contains that jewish people have a right to self determination and historic palestine which designed this view as their ancestral homeland. despite the pellets, simians, already living man. it's expansion in the late 19th century was partly in response to anti semitism in your many hard lines honest, argue that the palestinian territories of the occupied with bank and gaza also belonged to israel. prime minister benjamin netanyahu has maintained that to be opposed to both zionism and the state of israel is inherently n. t jewish. a claim he made once again at the united nations general assembly. last month, the sooner we got out of the one and only joined states continues to be a moral stain on the united nations. it has made this once respected institution, contemptible in the eyes of decent people everywhere. but so many palestinians

reject signing them as the drive of saint la colonialism that dispossessed them of the lands during the founding of israel, but knocked about or catastrophe in 1948. so esign us to military forces violently driving around $750000.00 palestinians from the homes. but many jews have also spoken out against signing some ultra orthodox groups have regularly protested against the state of israel and its ongoing occupation of palestinian lands. in spite of the debates of these being a sleep rise in both anti semitism and as i'm a phobia wills wide since october the 7th last year recorded. and he's the music incidents in the united states increased 388 percent in the 4 weeks after october 7th. well, the number of is on the phone to can students increased at 216 percent during the same period that led us senate majority leader, chuck schumer,

whose job is to deliver this morning. anti semites are taking advantage of the pro palestinian movement to a stat spouse, hatred in bigotry, towards the jewish people. but rather than call out this dangerous behavior for what it is, we see so many of our friends and fellow citizens, particularly young people who yearned for justice, unknowingly aiding and abetting their cause. the debates about and design is them, has raised for decades, is males were on guns that has made it and increasingly better arguments with more violent consequences. consequences that strike at the house of the idea of israel. and it's very right to exist at like speed l g 0, the inside story. the. all right, let's get into this. let's bring in a guess from london, we are joined by giovanni for senior, who is the executive director of the european legal support center which deals with

definitions of anti semitism. in new york, we have ariel angel who's the editor in chief of jewish currents, which is an award winning magazine founded in 1946 minutes long covet anti semitism . and it's weaponized ation. and in cambridge, in massachusetts, in the united states is about 12, who's the samuel piece, a professor of holocaust and genocide, studies at brown university. welcome to you. oh, i'd like to start in new york. if that's right with you. audi l, let's get straight to the number. this is to be empty. zionist, anti semitic, thanks for having me. well, judaism is a religion. zionism is an ideology. they are 2 separate things. so anti zionism is not necessarily anti semitism. but the problem is that many jewish

people are raised to believe that zionism is an identity that is fused with their judaism. and that's where the confusion comes in. we have been told in other social movements that we need to listen to people talking about their experiences and listen to them when they tell they are experiencing a kind of oppression. what is difficult about this is that use really feel that their identity is being challenged. when's i and isn't, is being challenged and uh, for people who are not scientists. so it's very clear that they are challenging the ideology of zionism. so there is a, a lot of confusion, i will say that judaism is existed long before zionism and many uh, anti scientists use out there have been trying to reclaim a jewish tradition that, that is not reliant on zionism,

but in the united states. and, and certainly in israel zionism has in a sense, animated most of the major institutions and institutional life. and so that is very, very difficult to start to separate those things out. and that also adds to the can to the confusion. what i'll also say is that anti semitism does exist in our movements for palestine and an anti zionist movements. um, but that is true of, of every ism that exists in every movement of racism, sexism, homophobia. and of course, because this is a movement where jews are the perpetrators in palestine as is rarely jewish citizens, we'd have to be extra on guard. and part of the problem with confusing and design is i'm in anti semitism, is that we've drained anti semitism of meaning to some extent. okay. it becomes

much, much harder to confront. ok, thanks. sorry, i, i my so you, you have a deep understanding of the history here, of course. and as you have observed, these dreadful events of the past 12 months. what is your sense about this question of whether being critical of design is projects equates to being and you sent me a check on how the framing of that question if you like, has changed over the policy. yeah, yeah. um. well also thanks and thanks for having me. um a look there is obviously a certain rise in anti semitism when one has to observe it. one can say however, it said that the pose to some extent and how one defines anti semitism. we know that the atl frances, the anti defamation league, has actually changed its definition of anti semitism to include also protests

against x ray, the actions. and so part of the rise is also a matter of how you define the phenomena in itself a this, it has to be an anti jewish animal as uh for a very long time. and more than that, i semitism is a creation of the late 19th century, and that is a phenomenon that is sadly alive and dangerous. but i would say that what we have seen this year, but actually going back a couple of decades is the, the state of israel in particular, has use a particular definition of i said that this in which tries to conflate criticism of policies of the state, which most people with fine indefensible, without the services in which most people would also oppose. and therefore, it is in part a response to is really policies that have been pushed to germany to

the united states and other countries to understand. and as i said, that as a, as a criticism, obviously the policies we should the, the hundreds of thousands of jews around the world to either the anti scientist or a. so i don't know who has no particular life was honest and they don't oppose it. and they don't endorse it, certainly large communities of orthodox jews, including it natural itself, who are not a scientist, and a certainly not anti semitic. in fact, they see themselves as the epitome of what jewish identity is. so in large pub, this is a political exercise and i would add velocity. and unfortunate finding that is really anxious, particularly in the last year have contributed to the rise of anti semitism. simply because they have asked it so violently against put

a sentence. a giovanni at this confusion that ariel talks of between the terms, would you say that it has been taken advantage of that there is this intentional conflation of the 2 terms that then creates antagonism against those who support the public opinion polls? yes, definitely. yes, but he's not just my opinion, but our lady, the jewish color slides, anthony armando, but he's book uh with american 2017 and clearly explain you know, how especially the development of the, i sorry to be shown as being, as we can use to deliberately conflict on things and he is more we understand it is or and, and then of course, and then we'll talk more about these later. like is deliberate because the when these completion take place, then it's way easier to crack down on the portal where speaking all to support for

palestine and, and what then putting their most expedient book. it clearly shows how specific groups even these trial uh pro, is that are in your organization. so together we've experts and onto some of these starting at be pushing for years from around the present. and then a been a, been doing a huge, a bulk of cs for to, to where we shape on december dismal and to complete. mitchell, which was, there's an aerial so as i am, i was leading to that as being another strand to this house. someone who may not be necessary again to design this, but it is critical of israel's actions in god's when even this has been imply designed to submit to it. and that's something you've observed, i guess. yeah, i mean look there as the jewish establishment groups in the united states, certainly and i know globally will not miss an opportunity to accuse somebody criticizing israel of anti semitism. i think where it becomes very tricky is almost

as on there said, is that particularly for example, in the student movement that we saw on college campuses, you have uh, these and cabins were and design is 2, were students are, you know, very, very involved and perhaps at the core of some of the organizing. and so it becomes a lot more difficult to level that accusation. now certainly it is leveled and there is a way in the jewish community of telling, particularly young jews because 40 percent of jews under $44.00. you know, by a number of different polls, we know that many of those young people identify either is anti zionist doors. on their said, a zion as non sinus and a, you know, it becomes very, very difficult to tell them that their insights and medic and yet still, they are being pushed out. they're called, you know, self hating use accused of being tap pose, you know, which is

a very upsetting, slower, so indeed, uh, there is an effort to marginalize those use and to kind of tell them that they are not really a part of the, the community. okay. giovanni is you know, well there is, is this working definition of anti semitism which has been accepted by the us state departments by the governments around the world. and it's being framed caused by the international holocaust rememberance. a lot a tell us a little bit about that and why it's controversial. that would be controversial for 2 main reasons. the 1st one is about the visa destination comes with at some point . so, and that are 2 examples, but being costing to use it to crack down on the, on the policy of rights. the 1st example is except for 7. and it says that the 9, the jewish people were i to send the termination by claiming, but the sense of a state police problem is there a system, beaver is empty, somebody take. okay. so um, by the end,

the other example says that the blank double standards by requiring israel behavior were not expected or demanded for any other democratic nation is anticipated. so basically what's, what's happening happening is that the, the, the finish on your roku has been easy to ignore and you can find, so being adopted by public bodies such as universities and governments. but those are private. the company is there as just any 3rd of policies and bought to in the last 5 years. we provide the legal support to hundreds of people who have been disciplined, essential. ready will be 60 nation, which shows, but the fact to be 60 shown is actually used as a little uh, and this is extremely, extremely problematic. okay, and the it said the at i ajar a muscles and the digits and the criticism of as well as human rights record, is that how you perceive it a look this, this on the, as it's called,

the ira definition, which goes back to 2000 to the, to an important meeting that took place in the stockholm, which initially was above europe, remembering and commemorating the whole course, which was a highly or laudable idea. but this definition has had a drawing shilling effect on opinion in general, on, on legitimate criticism officially the policies specifically. so what is it, what is sort of curious about this whole thing and this has happened. a great deal in the united states this year is the term, as i said, that is a has being used to muscle opinion. it has been used in a kind of the cost is way as the red scare was used in the past. so people at the

university students who are, who are simply outraged by what they are seeing, being done with the help of the american taxpayers being disciplined for stating the opinion and describe this as i submitted it. and and as was said to you, of course quite quite a number of images i've, i've also had the honor of being called a couple and various uh, emails that i received. the, the other terribly fact is the, this kind of definition of a anti semitism. as the ties on isn't as fractured, the jewish community itself is having any fact of actually putting large numbers of jews who believe in even those who believe in the rights of the state or federal to exist but a port, but it's policies outside of the mainstream. of the jewish community,

and that is the tragic effects of uh, is really policies uh as of the adoption of this the finish. and yeah, i'd like to explore that a little bit further. i realize what, what are you seeing in terms of that demographic change and, and what that long term impact might be? and it's a good question um a certainly there is a demographic change generationally, as i mentioned at the numbers of identification with zionism, are much, much higher among people. and you know, 50 and over. certainly younger people who have never grown up with israel as a, a kind of weak country. you know, they all they see is what is there is now um and they want no part of it. i think this is tearing apart families, a jewish parents. we opened up our phone lines for people who were having

risk within their families and got hundreds and hundreds of calls. heartbreaking stories of, you know, parents essentially choosing their zionism over their children and in some cases. and so these are very, very a riff. i think, well, what it will be interesting to see is whether the anti zionist or non scientist community in the jewish community can create new institutions to hold jewish life. and thereby sort of rejoined the jewish community on their own terms. because right now, for example, we're in the middle of the high holidays. there is nowhere in most places in the united states for anti zionist used to go to services. nowhere where there isn't a and it's really flag on the on the beam on the stage for the holidays. and so that's a very, very distressing prospect for and design is jews who want to stay connected to jewish life. okay. and giovanni, just

a little bit more about the cases that you went to and whether the definition of anti semitism was put forward by the international holocaust. remember to launch we were discussing a little bit earlier has been used and then disputed, or yeah, like i said, you'll be to more so some of the kids will be working on in england. but in germany, like in england, the venetians being adopted by university of them. and we have been working, we've uh, we've been working on at least 2530 cases of where academics him and the students were put under district investigation because of what we've posted on social media. me posted probably by the same content, the social media. and after the university adopted, the lights already been shown. so these default where uh received a complaint against a leading best of their social media posts where violating g a. b. i tried to show some report where, where on pacific, in another case in england was really,

really astonishing to a young muslim woman who was offered the job in the public. uh, you know, public body and uh, after doing the last check. uh, the employer subs best that her social media poster where and syndicate submitted according to the i sorry, the nation and before, but we do all bits of all sir. uh, the good side of the stars here is back in all these cases. we managed to push rebecca, so because i'm gonna go to support that these woman got their work and for the cases against duck a, them, assessments were disney stuff, but least took a huge amount of time and energy. and the other major issues here in germany, and we should have a specific problem you for pet or opposite, where the i, sorry, the condition is abducted by groups. but the money to understand that this month and these groups are trading for lisa and things. public official, sir. so it's people have been wondering why the board so the police have been so aggressive, but use your money over the last 10 months against professor connection here. but

those are just the, again, i was before hours about the one year ago. the invitation for 2022 was the 1st because if i get pretty soon and the police referred the clearly to you guys, sorry, the condition saying back the, the, the, the demonstration was likely to produce a high on these right. and um, peace and make it on pacific office here in the life of the i sorry, so these are the interesting few giovanni's hang tight so that we just needed to push it a little bit said scenario as you listen to that. i mean, i know you're not surprised by what you're hearing from london there about these, these various cases it's been going on. but what happens, do you think if, if it's real continues in this direction? well, well actually, i'm sorry, i'm not going to answer your question because i think it's important actually to bring this to the american context. in the american context. we see very much the same thing. but we also see it's already being written into all kinds of other laws

including hate crime laws. each hurry is also being used now in the department of education and they are attempting investigations into a number of schools. the student protest is going to be cracked down on this year extremely hard. and i think that we're almost not prepared for the amount of oppression in the united states. right wing a right wing movement against the universities has sort of hijacked the cause of anti semitism. and, and in fact, what we are going to see is the academy dismantled, free speech curtailed and and, and protest curtailed on the back of the idea of anti semitism, which is

a fully right wing project. but american liberals seem to be fully on board. so that's something that we have to look forward to and that we will really have some sort against, okay, show as a pressure, is that growing? i'm or i'll see you. the question is, what's your sense of what's going to happen in the long time? if, if this persists so you know, just to continue what the area was just saying 11 thing that i really worry about, you know, the, the, the origins of that the services were always conservative. and then right wing and fascist, there's never been the less. and so using the left as the, as the source of what is the find is that, that some of the system is basically a trick to legitimize and crack down on liberal communities. and the result of that is actually going to be a real rise. and as i said,

that is and from its truth sources which are the right and the conservative. since there is a fair amount of rich resources for, as i said, this is an in the united states and in europe. and so what, what do we see here is that i, i think parts of the academic establishment in the united states, the intellectual establishment and the jewish establishment in the united states are playing into the hands of actual sources of anti semitism. and what worries me most is that there is a sense of old or assess will be created, that there's an muscling of criticism of israel by jewish interest in the united states. and that will have the boomerang effect of right wing as i submitted to an interest in america and in europe using the old cannot

the israel and the jews controlling politics and finance. this is this, is it real danger that i don't think people are facing up to be a d l itself? the other, the information league itself is, is playing into that. so i think that is a real danger and we see where the of what is happening in europe in germany and italy and fries the rise of the real right wing. and it is some of phobic. and as i submitted a naturalist set of phobic elements and we see that of course of the united states to inductor will play directly into this. and what we just said, we run out of time. so i, i'd like to come back to ariel finally, if i, if i could. so what needs to happen here? it's all heading in the wrong direction. they're precious from all ends. what needs to happen? it depends where i mean, within the jewish community,

i think that we have incredible infrastructure for education and we need to re purpose some of that education to give the jewish community is the ability to confront the knock button particular to be able to understand what happened to palestinians and to approach their, even if they remained zionist on some level, to approach a their experience of their own. zion is um, also from the perspective of its victims as edward. so you said so that is something i would really like to see and, and that i think i will see generationally as things shift if we're looking at, for example, the united states government. i think that they have a responsibility as they think about how to fight anti semitism to integrate the perspectives of jewish voices who are not in the main stream and who are not scientist as particularly because that represents a full 30 percent of the community overall. um and i think that we

need to be on guard against anti semitism in our movements. precisely for the reasons that omar, omar said, okay, all right, well i'm going to have to jump in though i do apologize, but we have run out of time, very important subject, but we do need to move on. but thanks to all of you for contributing to business important conversation, a giovanna fatina audio angel, and i'm about to thank you very much and thank you, tell you if i watch it, you can see this program again at any time by visiting a website. i'll just here at the com and for further discussion of calls go to a facebook page that is facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you'll also join the conversation on act. so high level is at a jane side story. remain the clock and the whole team here. it's combined from the the latest news as it breaks. so it's kind of, it's being unable to rule out

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