the next thing that's about what is the return of the lord jesus christ, the apocalypse companies. witness those to the us is event jellicoe, christine, exploring its influence of democracy and foreign policy on this and try to if you have just read a book in the process praying for i'm gonna get the episode one on that just does and design isn't necessarily lead to anti semitic israel's war on does that as often lead to a conflation of the to 10? that how misleading could this be? and does it mean anyone criticizing israel is actions and galvan desantis in with. this is inside story, the

other they're welcome to the program. i'm a clock. so israel's war and garza has increased space, anti semitism and anti zionism world wide. well, neither time is new. anyone who criticizes israel for his actions in gaza is often labeled as anti semitic is ready, late as in particular have conflated condemnation of the response to the mass. slight attacks on october the 7th as both anti semitic and anti sinus. unless argue that blaring the difference health is israel undermine any opposition to or rejection of its policies is rather accuse a weapon. noisy but 2 times to justify its attacks on garza and the palestinian territories belts with no end in sight to the conflicts in the middle east. what all the dangers open the full out from confusing anti semitism and design isn't. we'll hear from la guessing just a moment before us. this report from alex back, it is and design isn't the licensed form of anti semitism. the us house of

representatives passed a resolution and the same as saying clearly and stanley. this is angie zionism is. why do you described as the opposition to sign is a nationalist ideology that helped establish the state of israel in 1948. it contains that jewish people have a right to self determination and historic palestine, which designed this view as via ancestral homeland. despite the palestinians already living the, it's expansion in the late 19th century was partly in response to anti semitism in your many hard lines on this argue that the palestinian territories of the occupied waste bank and gaza also belonged to it as a prime minister. benjamin netanyahu, it has maintained that to be opposed by design ism, and the state of israel is inherently n. t jewish. a claim he made, once again at the united nations general assembly. last month. the sooner we got out of the one and only joined states continues to be

a moral stain on the united nations. it has made this once respected institution, contemptible in the eyes of do some people everywhere. but so many palestinians reject signing them as the drive of saint le colonialism that dispossessed them of the lands during the founding of israel, but not above or catastrophe in 1948. so esign us to military forces violently driving around $750000.00 palestinians from the homes. but many jews have also spoken out against signing some ultra orthodox troops have regularly protested against the state of israel and its ongoing occupation of palestinian lands. the, in spite of the debates of these being a steep rise in both ends seem its ism and as i'm a phobia wills wide since october the 7th last year recorded. and he's the music incidents in the united states increased 388 percent in the full weeks after

october 7th. well, the number of his on the phone to convince increased at 216 percent during the same period that led us senate majority leader chuck shoot about whose job is to deliver this morning. anti semites are taking advantage of the pro palestinian movement to a stat spouse, hatred in bigotry, towards jewish people. but rather than call out this dangerous behavior for what it is, we see so many of our friends and fellow citizens, particularly young people who yearned for justice, unknowingly aiding and abetting their cause. the debates about in design ism has raised for decades as well as world garza has made it an increasingly better argument with more violent consequences. consequences that strike at the house of the idea of israel, and it's very right to exist at like speed l g 0, the inside story. the.

all right, let's get into this. let's bring in a guess from london, we are joined by giovanni for senior, who is the executive director of the european legal support center which deals with definitions of anti semitism. in new york, we have ariel angel who's the editor in chief of jewish currents, which is an award winning magazine founded in 1946 minutes long covet anti semitism . and it's weaponized ation. and in cambridge, in massachusetts, in the united states is about 12, who's the samuel piece, a professor of holocaust and genocide, studies at brown university. welcome to you. oh, i'd like to start in new york. if that's right with you out a, well, let's get straight to the number. this is to be n, t, zionist, anti semitic. thanks for having me. well, judaism is a religion. zionism is an ideology. they are 2 separate things. so anti

zionism is not necessarily anti semitism. but the problem is that many jewish people are raised to believe that zionism is an identity that is fused with their judaism. and that's where the confusion comes in. we have been told in other social movements that we need to listen to people talking about their experiences and listen to them when they tell they are experiencing a kind of impression. uh, what is difficult about this is that use really feel that their identity is being challenged. when's i, and as, and as being challenged and uh for people who are not scientists. so it's very clear that they are challenging the ideology of zionism. so there is a, a lot of confusion, i will say that judaism is existed long before zionism and many uh,

anti scientists use out there have been trying to reclaim a jewish tradition that, that is not reliant on zionism, but in the united states. and, and certainly in israel zionism has, in a sense, a animated most of the major institutions and institutional life. and so that is very, very difficult to start to separate those things out. and that also adds to the can to the confusion. what all also say is that anti semitism does exist in our movements for palestine and an anti zionist movements. but that is true of, of every ism that exists in every movement of racism, sexism, homophobia. and of course, because this is a movement where jews are the perpetrators in palestine, as is rarely jewish citizens,

we'd have to be extra on guard. and part of the problem with confusing and te zionism in anti semitism is that we've drained anti semitism of meaning to some extent. okay. it becomes much, much harder to confront. ok, thanks. sorry, i'll, i'll see you and you have a deep understanding of the history here, of course. and as you have observed, these dreadful events of the past 12 months. what is your sense about this question of whether being critical of design is projects equates to being and you sent me a check on how the framing of that question if you like, has changed over the pos. yeah. yeah. um. well also thanks and thanks for having me . um a look there is obviously a certain rise in anti semitism when one has to observe it. one can say however, it said that the post to some extent on how one defines anti semitism. we know that

the atl frances, the anti defamation league, has actually changed its definition of that, but i submit this and to include also protest against history, the actions. and so part of the rise is also a matter of how you define the phenomena in itself. of this, it has to be an anti jewish animus for a very long time. and more than that, the semitism is the creation of the late 19th century and that is a phenomenon. and that is certainly alive and dangerous. but i would say that what we have seen this year, but actually going back a couple of decades is the, the state of israel in particular, has use a particular definition of i said that this in which tries to conflate criticism of policies of the state, which most people with fine indefensible, without the services in which most people would also oppose. and therefore,

it is in part a response to is really policies that have been a push to germany to the united states and other countries to understand. and as i said, that as a, as a criticism, obviously the policies we should the, the hundreds of thousands of jews around the world who are the anti scientist or a. so i don't know who has no particular life was honest and they don't oppose. and they don't endorse it, certainly large communities of orthodox jews, including it natural itself, who are not the scientists and a certainly not anti semitic. in fact, they see themselves as the epitome of what jewish identity is. so in large pub, this is a political exercise and i would add one last thing and unfortunate finding that is really anxious, particularly in the last year have contributed to the rise of anti semitism. simply

because they have acted so violently against put a sentence or giovanni at this confusion that ariel talks of between the terms. would you say that it has been taken advantage of that there is this intentional conflation of the 2 terms that then creates antagonism against those who support the public opinion polls? yes, definitely, yes, but he's not just my opinion, but our lady, the jewish color, slice anthony armando betsy's book with american 20 seventy's and clearly explain you know, how especially the development of the i sorry to be shown as being, as you can use to deliberately conflate on things and he has more, we understand that these are and, and then of course, and then we'll talk more about these later. like is deliberate because the when

these completion take place, then it's way easier to crack down on people where speaking all the support for palestine and, and what then putting their most expedient book. it clearly shows how specific groups, even the east rylon pro is the organization. so together we've experts and onto some of these starting at be pushing for years from around the present. and then a been a been doing a use of bulk of cs for to, to where we shape on december dismal and to complete between the 2 thirds anerio. so as emma was leading to that there's been another strand to this house. someone who may not be necessarily enters on. it's but it's is critical of israel is actions in gaza and even this is being imply designed to submit to it. and that's something you've observed, i guess. yeah, i mean look there as the uh,

jewish establishment groups in the united states. certainly. and i know globally will not miss an opportunity to accuse somebody criticizing israel's anti semitism . i think where it becomes very tricky is almost as on there said, is that particularly for example, in the student movement that we saw on college campuses, you have these encampments where anti zionist, your students are, you know, very, very involved and perhaps at the core of some of the organizing and so it becomes a lot more difficult to level that accusation. now certainly it is leveled and there is a way in the jewish community of telling, particularly young jews because 40 percent of jews under $44.00. you know, by a number of different polls, we know that many of those young people identify either as anti zionist doors on their said, a zion is non sinus and a, you know, it becomes very,

very difficult to tell them that their insights and medic, and yet still, they are being pushed out. they're called, you know, self hating use accused of being tappers, you know, which is a very upsetting, slower, so indeed, uh, there is an effort to marginalize those use and to kind of tell them that they are not really a part of the, the community. okay. giovanni's, you know, well there is this, this working definition of anti semitism which has been accepted by the state departments by the governments around the world. and it's being framed to close by the international follicles. remembrance lots a tell us a little bit about that and why it's controversial. that would be controversial for 2 main reasons. the 1st one is about the visa defamation comes with at some point. so, and that are 2 examples, but being costing to use it to crack down on the, on the policy of rights. the 1st example is except for 7. and it says that the 9,

the jewish people were i to send the termination by claiming, but the sense of a state police problem is there a system, beaver is empty, somebody take. okay. so um, by the end, the other example it says about the plain double standards by requiring israel behavior are not expected or demanded for by any other democratic nation is a disability. so basically what's, what's happening happening is that the, the, the finish on your roku has been easy to ignore. you can find what being adopted by public abilities such as universities and governments. but those are private. the company is there as just any 3rd of policies and bought to in the last 5 years . we provide the legal support for hundreds of people who have been disciplined, essential because. ready will be safe nation, which shows but the thought to be the creation you've actually used as a little and this is extremely, extremely problematic. okay,

and then my it said the at i jar a muscles and the digits and the criticism of israel as human right record is that how you would perceive it a look. this is this the, as it's called, the ira definition, which goes back to 2000 to the, to an important meeting that took place in the stock home. which initially was above you are remembering and commemorating the whole course, which was a highly or laudable idea. but this definition has had a growing shilling effect on opinion in general, and on legitimate criticism, officially the policies specifically. so what is it? what is sort of curious about this whole thing? and this has happened. a great deal in the united states this year is the term, as i said, that as a has being used to muscle opinion. it has been used in

a kind of when the cost is way as the red scare was used in the past. so people at the university students who are, who are simply outraged by what they are seeing, being done with the help of the american taxpayers being disciplined for stating the opinion and describe this as i submitted it. and and as was said to you, of course quite quite a number of images i've, i've also had the honor of being called a couple and various uh, emails that i received, the, the other terrible effective, the, this kind of definition of a anti semitism. as it does on is in a fraction of the jewish community itself, it's a, it's, it's, it's having any fact of actually putting large numbers of jews who believe in even those who believe in the rights of the state or federal to

exist, but out of port but it's policies outside of the mainstream of the jewish community, and that is the tragic effects of a is ready policies. uh, as of the adoption of this the finish. and yeah, i'd like to explore that a little bit further. i realize what, what are you seeing in terms of that demographic change and, and what that long term impact might be. and it's a good question. um a certainly there is a demographic change generationally, as i mentioned at the numbers of identification design is i'm are much, much higher among people. and you know, 50 and over. certainly younger people who have never grown up with israel as a, a kind of weak. uh, country you know, they all they see is what israel is now. um and they want no part of it. i think this is tearing apart families,

a jewish currents. we opened up our phone lines for people who were having risk within their families and got hundreds and hundreds of calls. heartbreaking stories of, you know, parents essentially choosing their zionism over their children and in some cases. and so these are very, very a riff. i think, well, what it will be interesting to see is whether the anti zionist or non scientist community in the jewish community can create new institutions to hold jewish life. and thereby sort of rejoined the jewish community on their own terms. because right now, for example, we're in the middle of the high holidays. there is nowhere in most places in the united states for anti zionist choose to go to services. nowhere where there isn't an is really flag on the on the beam on the stage for the holidays. and so that's

a very, very distressing prospect for and design is jews who want to stay connected to jewish life. okay. and giovanni does a little bit more about the cases that you've worked on, whether the definition of a anti semitism as put forward by the international holocaust. remember to launch we were discussing a little bit earlier, has been using vend disputed, or yeah, like i said, you become more so some of the kids it would be working on in england. but in germany like england, the venetians being adopted by university ism. and we have been working, we've uh, we've been working on at least 2530 cases of where a academic soon. and the students were put under district investigation because of what we've posted on social media like boston pro, palestine content, the social media. and after the university adopted, the lights already been shown. so these default where uh, received

a complaint against a leading pest of their social media posts were violating g a, b, i sorry, the insurance and report were, were on pacific. in another case in england was really, really astonishing to a young muslim woman was offered the job in the public. uh, you know, you probably could body and uh, after doing the last check. uh, the employer said that her social media posts to where and to send me get submitted according to the i sorry, the nation before, but we do all the job offer. uh, the good side of the stars here is back in all these cases. we managed to push rebecca, so because i'm going to go to support the these woman go through our work and for the cases against economic systems where it does me stuff, but least took a huge amount of time and energy. the other major issue here in germany, and we should have a specific problem only for pet for opposite where the i, sorry, the condition is abducted by groups but money to understand me this month. and these groups are trading for lisa and thing public official ser. so if people have

been wondering why the point, so the police have been so aggressive but use your money over the last 10 months against professor connection here. but those are just this again, i was before hours about the one year ago. the recommendation for 2022 was the 1st because the budget $0.40, and the police referred the clearly to guide. sorry. the finish of saying back the, the, the, the most nation was likely to produce a high on piece, right. and on piece and make it on the 17th. i'll close here in the life of the, i sorry, so these are the interesting few. giovanni, talking sites that we just need to push it a little bit said said arial, as you listen to that, to me, i know you're not surprised by what you're hearing from london there about these, these various cases it's been going on. but what happens, do you think if, if it's real continues in this direction? well, actually, i'm sorry, i'm not going to answer your question because i think it's important actually to

bring this to the american context. in the american context, we see very much the same thing, but we also see it's already being written into all kinds of other laws including hate crime laws. each hurry is also being used now in the department of education and they are attempting investigations into a number of schools. and student protests is going to be cracked down on this year. extremely hard. and i think that we're almost not prepared for the amount of oppression in the united states right wing. so a right wing movement against the universities has sort of hijacked the cause of anti semitism. and, and in fact, what we are going to see is the academy

dismantled, free speech curtailed and and, and protest curtailed on the back of the idea of anti semitism, which is a fully right wing project. but american liberals seem to be fully on board. so that's something that we have to look forward to and that we will really have some sort against, okay, show as a pressure, is that growing? i'm or i'll see you. the question is, what's your sense of what's going to happen in the long time? if, if this persists so you know, just to continue what i was just saying, 11 thing that i really worry about, you know, the, the, the origins of that the services were always conservative. and then right wing and fascist, there's never been the left. and so using the left as the, as the source of what is defined as, as i said, that system is basically a trick to legitimize and crack down on liberal communities. and the

result of that is actually going to be a real rise. and as i said, that isn't from its true sources which the right and the conservative since there is a fair amount of rich resources for as i said, this is in, in the united states and in europe. and so what, what we see here is that i, i think parts of the academic establishment in the united states intellectually stablish went and the jewish establishment in the united states are playing into the hands of actual sources of anti semitism. and what worries me most is that there is a sense so or, or assess, will be created, that there's an muscling of criticism of israel by jewish interest in the united states. and that will have the boomerang effect of right wing as i submitted to

an interest in america and in europe using the old nod, the israel and the jews controlling politics and finance. this is this, is it really danger that i don't think people are facing up to be a d l itself? the other, the summation league itself is, is playing into that. so i think that is a real danger and we see where the of what is happening in europe in germany, and it's only in fries the rise of the real right wing. and it is some of phobic. and as i submitted a naturalist set of phobic elements that we see that of course, in the united states, to in the play directly into this. and why we just said we run out of time. so i, i'd like to come back to ariel finally, if i, if i could. so what needs to happen here?

it's all heading in the wrong direction. they're precious from all ends. what needs to happen? it depends where i mean, within the jewish community, i think that we have incredible infrastructure for education and we need to re purpose some of that education to give jewish community is the ability to confront the knock. but in particular, to be able to understand what happened to call simians and to approach their, even if they remain zionist on some level, to approach a, in their experience of their own. zion is um, also from the perspective of its victims as edward. so he said, so that is something i would really like to see and, and i think i will see generationally as things shift if we're looking at, for example, the united states government. i think that they have a responsibility as they think about how to fight anti semitism to integrate the perspectives of jewish voices who are not in the main stream and who are not

scientist as particularly because that represents a full 30 percent of the community overall. and i think that we need to be on guard against anti semitism in our movements. precisely for the reasons that omar, omar said, okay, all right, well i'm going to have to jump in the i do apologize, but we have run out of time, very important. subject, but we do need to move on, but thanks to all of you for contributing to this is important conversation that you have on a 15 at audio angel and i'm about to thank you very much and thank you to you for watching it. you can see this program again at any time by visiting a website out there at the com. and for further discussion of calls, go to a facebook page. that is facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you'd also join the conversation on x, so high level is at a jane side story, remain the clock and the whole team here. it's comply from the

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