the babies were taken in the middle of the night without the parent's consent. it's a 17 year old mister. this to hans some human jewish families in israel. this wasn't an accident. he's one of mistakes. this was a system of just the or world here's disturbing allegations of speech sanctioned irregular adoption israel. the human eye children appear on out just the around the can you and change the course of israel's war on god adults advisory board? he has a cue. this government of doing too little and says if must work with other european countries to prevent a larger conflict, but with the us being the main player. what leverage if any, is your pat. this is inside, so the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm sort of in a european countries have been under pressure to get more involved in the ongoing conflict in the middle east. almost all. and you countries showed on a critical support for israel following a mazda of attack on october the 7th. but as, as relentless pounding of guns that carries on many have started to shift some even going as far as imposing arms and bar goes on israel. so that's government has been criticized from within for not doing enough in this conflict and early to join with other european countries to stop the conflict from spreading further. nice idea. but how does that become a reality? we'll go to our guests in a moment. first though, this report from alex beard, said destruction and no in in size. it's a national if it's the end as rails. wong gaza have sofa failed, and new reports by an advisory body to the dutch parliament sees the nathan's and other european countries. i haven't done and now it says the current situation in

the mid least is due to decades of negligence by the international community, including the new evidence. it's also called for a tougher response to is vile and recognition of the palestinian state. it's a stance that has gradually gaining the main some across europe with a new push for recognition of a palestinian state across the continent. this year, ireland, norway, slovenia, and spain joined to move in a dozen european countries who now recognized palestinian statehood. and as well as with length as bombardment of gauze and now living on drinks on the more have begun to question the relations with israel. french president manuel. the crown is the light. it's the cool for a hold to um, deliveries to israel, while the u. k. has also announced that suspending some exports slicing the risk they could be used in breach of international humanitarian. the gemini, however,

is steadfast. it's the 2nd biggest exposure of weapons to israel off to the united states and is made it clear that smells about to change. the problem we have supplied with ends and we will supply weapons. that's the position of the german government. i will not violate the security council's secrecy meals with my decisions and the government that will also ensure that they will be further deliveries in the near future. i don't get a call from vets and spice of legal christians, nicaragua, referred building to the international court of justice in april, accusing us of breaching the united nations genocide convention. meanwhile, the european union has called for a cease fire and both gaza and living on, but hasn't been involved in any talks. the 1st find is ceasefire. is it is not the ceasefire. nothing else work or but in order to have ceasefire, we need to fight against impunity, dilute all actors. and there's all due respect international,

and the number of collateral damage created to date. she really and particularly when you're leaving on has to take into account just not the case. those calls have continued to full on this is european lead is struggling to define what role they should be playing and as well as conflicts which have now claims tens of thousands of lives of experience l g 0 inside story that's bringing our guests now from brussels. we're joined by james moran, a former europe and union, and bassett, or egypt, jordan and human. it's also an associate senior research fellow at the center for european policy studies. in casablanca, morocco is a menu of the premium presidents of the institute of european perspective and security, and a former political advisor to the french extra of defense. and him to lose friends is lex pack and berg. the senior advisor on the question of palestine program at

the arab rene signs for democracy and development. think tank a welcome. all of you to inside story, mr. moran. let's start with you. you were, as i said, you in baset are to multiple countries in the middle east. why is europe such a non factor in this conflict? a so non site to europe has a great deal of interest and involvement in the region over the years. but it's right to say that it certainly is not in prime position at that stage of a very small, if any, in the us recently to go see, saw the guys a now or never at all as well. but they're all involved in europe and interest and stake. and that has been a shift in europe and opinion visual reflection of the last few months away from the all of us on quite a bit and so forth. it as well which one of the alternative, the cents tax divisions on that. so the, we'll take a mountain decline to come back and i'm to the side is the vision's copy of the con,

the possibilities for us to have leverage inevitably limited. the position of germany, a space, the cost, and that historical experience, it goes back to the all the costs. and that is a very difficult of stone to shift in terms of german opinions and the doctor as well. even though the you mentioned in your book, even though the advisory group has been asking me to follow into changes approach adopts to uh, pretty well in line with the israel as all some other countries in europe. whereas will be honest, i do have often just say you have others who are very much concerned to have a balanced. all right, so i'm going to position when it comes to at least a. so we all divided and you're still public opinion has been shifted and as we saw last week, if you are being counsel there. awesome, really important new concerns that are come into play to let me take this to lex. uh, james mentioned the germans, the dutch. what sparked our interest today?

lex was this dutch report by a body that advises both the dutch government and the dutch parliament. right. and the report n. s and said, we've been getting this wrong. we haven't been doing enough. and we need to be stricter on israel and feel free to correct me if you think i'm paraphrasing this wrong with. that's how i read the report. the report recommends recognizing palestinian statehood recommends an arms embargo. and his real if is really is violating international law and recommends partly suspending the association agreement with israel. that name straight. that means trait. this is important stuff is that, does that reflect the mood in the metal? it's well indeed i was, i was thinking about it when you spoke to the experts that are on that committee are uh, uh, international relations and legal, uh and uh, and so on. a fast uh, specialist that are reading and following what's happening in the,

in the middle east. the ground came in in palestine. israel lebanon and bill cannot come up with. busy ways uh uh and with, with you know, what to do with their contributions and. busy the, again, the point is that they have made to the fact that the dutch government is not likely to, uh, to actual uh, take, take up these uh, these recommendations immediately especially wish that the current uh, quite uh, quite right wing coalition is a manifestation of indeed a number of european countries where you're mentioned driven by me, the netherlands, it to the uh, u. k, that are still sort of close to uh, to, to, to as well. uh, but indeed, so i agree which the previous speaker changes in the air and european politicians

are increasingly becoming uncomfortable. one of the, one of the main structures that has kept them in checklist, fear for being branded uh off anti semitism. in case of criticizing israel. now they will have to choose between 2 evils, and 2 separate 2, some on the wrong one hand, on the other hand, be complicit in the crimes farms against humanity. a bar tried genocide, not. i'm not, i'm usually stories that say, you know what, that's something really interesting that actually hopefully we will come back to how politicians. i mean, i don't mean states, but i mean, individual politicians who have a career to think about who have elections to think about how they need to think about, you know, how they want to manage their career. you said that they're afraid to be represented anti semitic, and they're also afraid of essentially finding themselves on the wrong side of history. if they defend something that's, that can be called upon a part i genocide, mass murder, things like that. so we'll come back to that in

a 2nd. anybody who has an opinion on that would be very welcome. later in this discussion. and men really want to come to you because frances, such an interesting case study french president the amendment in back whole after october, the 7th embraced israel and the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. a year later, it is a very different picture. he is one of the handful of european leaders that is calling for international arms embargoes and international arms and fargo on israel . explain to us what happened and why as well. first of all, the position of america is always, that's the, that's a difficult to understand. and turn to mind is a yup, it re gets pretty pricey going from one side to the other thing that the same one thing seen a and that in almost a very short period of time. but what is essential is that you couldn't dream this change of what is your fault is up on the position of false. after the 7 of october was a full kitchen supports to a israel,

a binding by the optical $51.00 of the charts of you know, the nation is that have the right to defend itself. how much is a choice of ization and will do all that is possible to help is well in that perspective, having in mind that there was amongst the 200 more than 250 outages, more than 1012 a french cycle is a, i'll switch to the important issue, but everything has changed with the lamp and all that is, i think a new ramp and both of my store the position of frost in regards to mean. you know, this, the hot position of admin and my call in regard to the prime minister of nathaniel is regarding lab or not. not only regarding does not those i think a clear commitment of common and all the guys in our cargo right is not just in arms embargoed for 11. know, and it's an arms embargo. yeah. but nobody lives, it was real globally. and they will know that the embargo concerning the owns a, the problems that trust is sending to is when is absolutely not essential. it's 0.2

percent of the the expectation of what the the what that is the yeah. 90 percent of the things do not come from from your book comes from united states. so it's very symbolic. it was an easy page that is a catch. you find me say, so that's not the search report. this, such a board is strong abiding by the resolution 701 of 2006, the resolution 1559 of 2004. and the type agreements, the you and very strong commitment dot is wrote most not as it has been done already into problem 6 profitable the n v 11 on that is, why is it position of false as shifted in is the least in the symbolic way. yesterday at the 11 underneath conference, remember i could push one step forward, saying that's been him and you can, you must have in mind that from bob deletes is not the great civilization as the payments to his real estate. a few days ago that she was reading and the engage in

a civilization civilization or war. this james around, i want to talk a little bit more about germany to sort of complete this, this landscape. you mentioned the divisions within europe. you said you have countries like spain on the one hand, now joined by france when it comes to calling for an orange and bar go. and you have countries like germany and netherlands on the other hand, which have shown a much closer, much stronger support for israel, including up to now the german position. i mean, anyone can understand that due to the nazi holocaust, that that is what really roots and grounds the german support for israel. but we're in 2024. and i think what some of our viewers who don't live in europe are not going to understand is you know, how the historic events as dark and tragic as they were in the 1940s or shaping so strongly. germany's position today and 2024.

yeah, so i agree on the facebook and it doesn't make a great deal of sense when you look at the job interest. and this, of the fallout from off going on at the moment. but i think germany negative to be counter is on like this. i mean, we have a problem because with the energy in europe, it could get worse. it is right, is that it will reach on the next attack on the wrong people worried about that new energy crisis or some sort emerging from that. we have a problem every way with the migration. there's an obsession. everywhere with a regular migration, germany is no exception. the fall arrived in germany have been paying on the how to gaining a great deal of what's happening in less than on right now. it's very important that we have, we see hundreds of thousands of syrian refugees pushed over the border. this will add to migration pressures in the media long to job. you should be concerned about that, but we have a problem also in the longer it goes on like this, radicalization and so on. not necessarily directly from the players of the region, but from others back to those who will use of the genocide that's going on.

somebody with a guy certainly attacks another law, has reasons to solve out some soldier campaigns. and so lots and lots of issues like that, which is how not dimensions, right? the, the o g, a tax site and let's see the drum and trade as was european trade directly raising trade call. so there are many, many reasons objectivity, why you would think the germany would reconsider it's uncle advisable to his route . however, that doesn't seem to be happening right at the moment. okay. we've looked at the divisions within europe. i think, i think, and i think we've made those clear now, and that's certainly a factor of why you are, can not speak in a unified voice. and we heard in that report by our spirit earlier, you know, you heard has that burrell, the chief of european diplomacy, say one thing. and then you heard the german chancellor essentially take another completely opposite position. but, but lex, what you mentioned earlier about what politicians now need to navigate and the sort of the mind feels on the one hand in europe. there is always the danger. if you're

not supporting israel, that you could be accused of anti semitism. and that remains very real and our viewers who don't live in europe, i think, would do well to understand that. on the other hand, there's this other emerging threat to political career is, which has to be on the wrong side of history. as indeed uh, uh, and then a casing point is the reset. uh un general assembly resolution adopted in, in the middle of september. uh and or seeing the i see j advisory opinion advising the generally the, the general assembly on the, in the data to uh, off the occupation and the settlement enterprise. now, not only was this resolution adults, it was an overwhelming majority of 124 states,

but only 2 u member states totaled against the czech republic and hungary, sir to you states stoddard in favor and the others including germany, austria, the netherlands, antilles. brawls were sitting on the fence, you know, uh f saved uh and sure, uh uh for me this is a sort of an extremely or decision, extremely powerful resolution. uh instruction is relatively easy. all of the occupied territories including gaza, including these drawers and then there was interest amongst to evacuate all the settlements instructing. uh, uh oh you, when that understood not to operate made changes in legal situation. unprecedentedly strong language from the un general. busy assembly i

roger dan volter and your dentist, which will, which we both have extracted from the states that i mentioned, they decided it's true to, to upstate, in other words, to sort of by themselves time. and this is usually in your office, you know, uh from sir uh, off uh, off leading politicians in, in europe in countries about being in the wrong side officially. so we are a process of change and then reconsideration. recalibration, so to speak. let's address what kind of leverage europe could if it wanted, bring to bear to the conflict in the middle east. and james will come to you in a moment because i know you wrote an article with, with the various ways this could be implemented. let's start with this one and arms arms supplies, and potential arms embargo and mentoring. you have a security and defense focus. you did mention earlier that france calling for an

arms and bar go really is low hanging political fruit because they don't actually supply many weapons to israel. that is true. but then if you start adding up france spain, calling for the arms embargo the u. k. suspending some a minority but some of its weapons licenses to israel. what you see is potential momentum building towards a broader arms embargo for israel. do you see that a significant as well? so that's what it means that the pressure is under the states, but i do not see this as a reality the united states up to 2 weeks ago to provide 3500000000. so the more dollars of i'm still committed to is live and i'm not sure that there is a difference of good difference between a vice president. i was, i'm ex president. don't all. i see that the cost in support as it was seen in congress. the vote last june, amongst and $95000000000.00 of dollars of age around the world,

most of which of course will trade but also for taiwan. and the security of the border with mexico. $14000000000.00 were provided. um, but what were promised by united states in the upcoming year? so i do not see that frustrating or leverage leverage of the nato states. and this the thing to, to natal. i do see if that is an outcome a maybe it came on your team position, have you, i'm the jump in for a quick 2nd. your argument is, is, is very clear and i, and i think everybody will fully understand what you're saying. so long as the united states is by far the main supplier weapons to israel, it doesn't really matter whether france, spain, um, we did mention germany, they're not, they're not stopping their arms exports. but let's just assume for the sake of argument, even if they did, israel would still be getting most of its weapons. but the question, there's a lot of question then there's

a sub question to that is what about building momentum towards an arms embargo? i know to the currently for us senators are now actually in favor of the us a suspending or stopping its exports to the us. so in this hypothetical scenario, europe is not so much uh, a, an arms giller. but what it could do is get the ball rolling on the idea of in the arms embargo. that's my question. yeah, but the momentum you mentioned is the to the fact that there was a, a very strong support to vote. a voice full of probably seeing it, but it didn't mentioned to me to you and that you had a change in mindset. we still have one, i'm not sure that's a successor tool as a represent heinrich presents a different phone buddy. so if you guys cut out, we have to have the same position as the head was constantly having a different position from the president of the commission. you'll see the and there

was a lot of differences amongst the did you, did you opinion a council, the presidency of the you've been to the counsel and your communion with 5 minister, a 105 minutes to maybe with the new the successful or maybe don't know the cost would be more supportive to israel, then maybe don't, don't to be as supportive as is israel. then 5 minutes to publish a. and i'm a minister from our, i'm hungry. so you just, you do have to have in mind that your is not a unique and sore organization. there are lots of differences and lots of images amongst the institution. do remind, let's have in mind that um, in the end, the major part of that was a strong resolution, a making a batch. we do the same thing at the french part of the test done in 2014,

which is a full recognition of this time. cost is still not amongst the 446, no other united states. so they want to pay nicely that. so okay, the same, i think that's what i want to do. yeah. a mentor and thank you very much for for those points. so a mentor has made the point, james, the arms embargo from europe is either not going to happen or not going to have a very big impact or unlikely to have very big impact. in a recent article that you wrote, you detailed the 4 types of leverage that europe could bring to bear arms embargo was one of them. another was trade. and this, this seems to me an area where europe has actually quite a bit of leverage because it is the biggest uh, goods trading partner for israel making up about 30 percent of the, of the trade in goods the israel has with, with outside countries. so this is something that if europe wanted to

have leverage, this is one area where it could have influenced isn't it? yes it is. it's funny. just see what happened last week of the european council where the subject did come up. it was not included in the community care, but it was mentioned by the president of the council, the outgoing president, shelby shows at the end of it as saying that there was discussion boots on the by mold on a couple of member states. while i'm reviewing the israel, the, your association agreement number, which trade is carried out, and that has been something on the agenda, rising up the agenda in recent months. uh its uh, getting uh the amount of attention at the moment. i'm not sure where at the point where that review will actually take place that they suck in the moving is aside of this general moving to public opinion, others being recognized by the leaders. and that could be quite costly for is

rarely in particular given that a trace with europe on preferential terms of the related aspect that you're getting is not terribly important. you can always make streaming boulders and baldly which is trade with the cell phones. now there are restrictions on the settlement, right, but they all worked around in many cases by different mental states. i'm already one impulse, a complete bond on trade with the goods or services on the settlement is something which is also talked about. again, last week i'm obviously it would make a greater difference. it really gets home off to this is randy administration, especially with those 2 ministers, the small french you all the sample that community. is it some if that is talked about? so there is somebody bridge possible that if this movements and opinion continues over the next couple of months, but the manual man, a number of very good points, the dimensionals are the divisions, are going to be your institutions, which is true. and that needs to be tied up if that of these things are going to

get underway together with grades. remember, states lex, we have about a 102 minutes left now on the program, a recognition of palestinian statehood. that is something that is recommended by the dutch advisory body. about half of your currently has recognized palestinian statehood. the other house 15 countries a bit more than half have not. uh huh. what should they do in your view? the recognition of the senior stage orders is a very important political as symbolical expression of support to palestine in the palace and people. uh so. busy oh, i do expect that gradually more or more. uh, european uh, uh, states will, will follow the pos, installed shirts have already gone that way. and again, the dish uh, induced domain and also blinking it to the, to the previous comments. uh uh, the is not just you changing move in europe. that is pushing change. it is

a getting to the very strong ruling soft, the international court of justice. and also the pressure brought about by the international criminal court. the debt is essentially telling states, you know, you have to take pro, a proactive action to bring a legal situation to an actual stop the crime still to stop israel from continuing this general side and, and how the atrocities as well as b s bar called dive estimate that essentially has to be onto knobs and bottle was bothering last year and a dirty. busy until until recently, the international court of justice has essentially indicated that that h watch. that is a rule that european countries and other uh, un member state trooper. so in bringing about

a change in is israel's policies and practices on the grounding, told him to come to the office for start dash, really a significant change and significant pressure coming from all possible and goals on your p and politicians. want us to get it to be on the right side of history. and i believe that pressure will only increase as to what continuous, uh, and as uh, as the time process. alexis, thank you very much. we have to run this all the time. we have to for today, but thank you very much to all our guest, james moran and menu, as your pre and looks pack and berg, and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website dash 0 dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash 8 inside story. you can also join the conversation on x or handle there at asia inside store for me. so then you and the whole team here in don't like the

despite healthy young workers perishing in the heat, florida has blocked protections by outdoor workers. they are not allowed to take regular rest of the seats to pull down their findings. there's this kind of mentality that if you're a person of color, you can handle the fault lines investigates deadly. he why would you ask for the government to do the analogies? even the

limits to have a dream contained to study in your own adventure. now, counter and ways the this is also a 0 on daddy and obligate uh with a check on your world headlines. irena and media are reporting that to military personnel were killed in israel's attack on sites across iran. is really army says the strikes were in response to iran, so to act on october the 1st. but iran said that attack was retaliation for an assassination on arabian territory. on july the 31st. iran says the strike.