scattered and the blast investigate is sift through the wreckage. but they know who's behind these latest attacks. so hang fall guy used to be an active member of the bar son, ripple. lucy, nice, you know, will be, are in the main, separate his group in southern thailand. now he acts as a go between with the time military. while he's keen to see the piece talks resume, rebels have one simple go. it's, i'm likely to be met. the i, the guy i deal if they're not going to be the only thing that the be are in once is independent. my or if we don't have an independent state, we will continue to fight. when we get tired of fighting, we stop. and when we get stronger again, we will come up and continue to fight is a remote jungle of road in the south, a, ty, ordinance, disposal team designate to bomb attacks like this remain coming. that's a problem. tenants, the peace negotiations, veterans soldier with years of experience in the deep. so one of his 1st proposals

is to drastically reduce the number of trips in the region. but there are conditions been pan. we have a plan to reform and reduce security, which works on the concept of different levels. folder criteria is a month, then we can remove the trips. but if the requirements not met, so we have to reevaluate the 3 provinces of 7 thailand have been under marshal or emergency decrease in more than 20 is a source of resentment to many who lived there over the past 2 decades. more than 7000 people have been killed in search and see here in southern thailand. but even during periods of relative peace and tranquility like the last 12 months, security remains incredibly high. and that's a severe disruption to everyday life. the other major issue lies in the capital bank. recent political tomo and the appointment of a new prime minister have left the tiny government's position without play goes.

what direction? to me, this is a good development for the talks, but island doesn't have any clear picture of what it wants from the docs. that's why the peace process hasn't done any further. you expect changes in the south overnight, but if the government can open a dialogue with the separatist, it might to leave you at the tensions that have been building for years to anything else. is there a narrative? what? 7 time? okay, thanks for watching. i'll just say we're ahead on line for more information. our website is alta 0. com coming up next. it's upfront by the, the, the challenges with

a winning writer and journalist and author, china has the coast, is best known for his work fighting systemic racism. and any quality inside of the united states. but now he's into the conversation on israel and palestine. in his new book, the message quotes reflects on portions of brace, identity, colonialism, and the politics of writing in separate trips to center, go south carolina and israel and occupied power star. so what inside can one of america's most prominent writers offer on this consulate? and why has he entered this conversation? now? earlier i went to new york to speak to town that has the codes and upfront special . the title has the codes. welcome to upfront. thank you man. so good to meet your brother. this is your 1st non fiction book in 7 years. hm. it is a way that it's the perfect move it,

but it also way that so incredibly a, an opportune moment in the sense that wouldn't be lot of genocide and gaza. yeah. and you're writing a really intense and i would say smart critique of these really occupation when you started writing that as a did you anticipate that kind of response? mm hm. now i mean, um, and i knew it was going to be a lot of blow back. okay. i need to do is just no way the day is when i was over to the it wasn't just the occupation in this is i think like way is really high. if, if you, i think this is a hard life, if you go to the people, because you can understand that this occupation apart out on the west bank, gaza like they can understand that is unjust. but when you get to the root, so to state, like and you start saying, i don't know if there should be as most days periods. like, i don't know that i believe that a state should set itself up in such a way that one as in the group will have rights that others will not. um

i think if i said that in the abstract people say yeah, it's probably right. of course, but i think because of the weights, the real weight and the lead, the weight of, of anti semitism in the history of the west, culminating obviously and the holocaust, the fact that the holocaust is within the living memory of human history. i think we have a lot, you know, around that, you know, as we should, as we should probably. um, the problem comes in when, how we decide that you know that that should be paid. but, you know, once i saw it, and mark, i mean to get back to your question, i was, i, you know, my life will never be the same. my, i own seeing it. i was like, this is over, you know, some aspect of my life is over optimal before i written anything. that's the intellectual or political issue for you that was that the emotional, psychological level. oh man is a point in the book while i talk about how i had gone to um was retreat. and you know we hiked up the hill and this is like, this is at the end of like the mid point of,

of my truck. so the 1st half was with the palestinian literate festival, the 2nd half, with mostly with this group breaking the silence. ah, good idea of that is i know you familiar with. and i got to the top of this hike we took and i sat in this room and i was like, i just had this feeling like, you know, i'm just walk through a door and you can get back to the other side. you know, and um, i think um, so i knew after that you know what i mean? i know i was worried about i knew, you know, i knew you know what the, what the reaction was going to be. the only question is, could i do the job that i needed to do? you know, what's, what's changed to you for doing that job for executing that job proper? that's a great question. so i know what i had seen, but you know, i'm a historical thinker and so i needed to read a lot of the historical documents i needed to put in context. what i'm saying they would do it. people who had said things to me about, you know, basic, i'm saying this is what i needed to see them in

a more systemized form. i need to re reports. and so like having all of that, you know, like to me is upset like the morality of it is not complex, but obviously the system of it is. and so coming to try to understand it on a, on the, on a number system, big level that i feel like i could write and make the basic point, you know, which is to me. we are supporting a system of apartheid. and i don't think most americans understand that and why don't they understand it? you know, i thought that that was the essence of what i was trying to do. but it's interesting because while your essay is largely focused on posting and stuff, and you actually start with your visit to jada shim, which is israel's memorial to the victims of the holocaust. as a writer. oh, why did you start there? felt like a very intentional choice was man, i mean, 1st of all, 2 things have the experience. i had there was very real. so all of that emotional

and that was probably day 9. i think i was just, i'd say, and it wasn't like that was the 1st thing i saw. it was like the last thing i saw, you know, um and the most of the experience that i had as i write about was very, very real. and there was something about the fact that i was at that point very clear about what the state was doing. but that i guess it didn't make me feel like i needed to reject the experience which the state calls upon the heritage that the state calls upon to even you know, do what it does. yeah. that i, that i, that i was still move by boat and i was wondering how you write about that. yeah. how you reconcile it and how do you write about it in, not such a way. this is on the one hand, this on the other hand that my how do you fortune into a singular narrative, right. and as i thought about it, i thought about some of our more nathan dreams as african american. some of the

things that we, you know, wanted, and this came from other chapters in the book, obviously, you know, i own dreams of nationalism and how you can have a very, very real history. and not even just a victimization, but installation and genocide, pogroms, ethnic cleansing, etc. and how we have this believe that that will necessarily make you wiser, a better person. but how in human beings, in general, it doesn't always do that. now i want it to be very clear that i was not writing about a quote unquote jewish era. but a human mistake, you know, added some, most perhaps it's most acute or, you know, haven't, maybe not even that. but that is made it as the most relevant you know, to, to americans. and i thought if you don't take the pain, you don't take jewish very seriously. don't take the holocaust seriously. if you don't take any semitism, since you really won't understand what happened here. you know,

like it will be too easy to write this off is just some people doing some bad things. yeah. you know, when i left there thinking about that man like, okay, so this feels like a version of a history that i'm very familiar with, but accelerated way into the future. right? like times like 10 or something like that, a 100 and when i so i am here at this point. i've seen a future. what do i have to say to, to, to, to black americans? i would, i had to say to us about how we think about our own legacy. and it's hard for us to imagine this, but i don't take it as a given that we will ever be without political power. i don't know that's true. i don't take it as a given, we will, i will be out be without economic power. and if we weren't who we be, you know who we be and i think those are questions that are best as like right now when we don't have, you talked about the experience you saw in the middle least being familiar. it easy

. you can, you could, you could see that in our own histories, african americans here. i think some of the examples might be what you saw in the occupied westbank check point, segregated roads, us the sterns on pallets, and the roof together. rainwater compared to the country clubs of that swimming pools. when you see that was this one of those things where you immediately had a visual responses that, that looks like the historical memories that i was that i've had access to. oh, i mean the roads right away or you tell me, i can't go down a road net present. can't say this person has one license like you've got another one besides and i know the size don't literally say power staying is rarely, but they make it clear aside make it very clear who's supposed to be on that road. yeah. and so, i mean, that was clear like that was really clear. and then you know, i saw to point out the differences between, you know, where are used with palestinians lived in an area that was settlements. and in your mind or like settlement count calling just like some, you know, rough pie and me is, you know what, i mean the brace when i also but really it's just love it town. you know what i

mean like us actually, you know what it is you know, and um, understanding that quote unquote illegal settlement settlements. i actually subsidized by israel like, did not like i had it in my head to somebody. this is a problem. you know me for the is really state, but you know, when you're subsidizing it now so much. and so you start seeing and you're like, oh, really mediately? i mean, that was what was so calling about it. you know, um because i felt like people talking about the moral justice or injustice. it is in a very um, in a way that i now feel like they're trying to obscure. you know, um, you know, i've said this before, but there really is nothing that someone could do that would make me say a segregation apartheid jim crow. ok. but i just, i don't have access to that. i don't, i don't, i don't, i don't, you know,

i use it. definitely. example all the time there's nothing anybody's going to say to me that that person did. i'm going to say they deserve the definitely like i'm just not gonna do that. not a diamond is really not will be security that we have to have these roads fire in order to protect ourselves and palestinians who not only want self determination. but there are narrative is that palestinians don't what the jewish state to exist and they don't what used to exist as such. yeah, i mean the problem is people think when they say that that they therefore sound less like apartheid less like effectively. so more actually, yeah, right, they sound more, i mean that, that just shows like the lack of understanding of, of the history of those systems and colonialism. safety is always the point. i am not saying it is necessarily safe, like, i'm not, i don't deny it. do you know what our policy is, what to do? harm of housing. and we said, well, that's not what i'm saying. you're not, i mean what i'm face with them cronum faced with apartheid. you know, this is nothing you're going to say to me. and unfortunately, unfortunately, the argument of safety is the exact same argument that people who i don't think

some of those will to use that argument actually want to be in league with it, put you in not worry company was the security argument, or any argument from the pro is rarely perspective more persuasive to you before you travel there. to the sense that it was complicated was because i think that plays on a basic notion that we have in our head, which the story is a complicated history is complicated like that, that sorta it, it runs, it feels familiar. yeah. um and the system is complicated, this is a, you know, there's a lot of complication there. you know what i mean, but the morality of the, whether this should be happening of it. you know what, i mean the, if you asked me, you know, the basic said this country um, to be subsidizing the defense of apartheid, of, of taking people's land, of a less what, that's what the buzzwords away, you know,

it means you don't like that shouldn't be subsidizing a society that defines democracy by says by saying half the people deserve one set of rights and everybody else deserves less. no messages. no. this is no, you know and is nothing that, um, anyone's gonna say it's gonna make me say yes that, that, you know, there's a way both in the book and in your interviews that you tie, the sort of uncomplicated nature of this whole thing. the more our business of it all, to seeing it up close. yes, but you didn't just say you read it, you read deeply, read a sheet quality, you know, to advocate and edward site, and in his early historians like benny morris. and you tied those 2 things together . a lot of people don't have the opportunity to travel and certainly to travel to israel, palestine, how possible is it to arrive at the conclusion that this thing didn't make any

sense without actually going there. think if we had um a news media with different commitment, it would be possible. i don't like we didn't have to travel to south africa. i understand. you know, um, but unfortunately we, we don't, we don't have an i, i've been struggling because there are many journalists who i have in my and who i've looked up to and, and, and, and media organizations that i am myer. and i, and i look up to and i, and i don't think they're clarifying things. you know, i don't think there's, there's, there's that role. and again, i, i do think that they find it very hard. and i, i'm sympathetic to this with the cast people who are some cases of literal, dis, literal, like sons and daughters. you know, grandsons and granddaughter of holocaust survivors as perpetrators of so many victimize. another group of people that's just like, like a step we have to get, you know, what i mean by just like in your mind it doesn't ordinarily click,

you know, to wait other things, doing not a good faith interpretation of a behavior though, to some extent it's it is, and i and i, you know, i, i have to start from there. like i have to say, i don't think it wrong, but yeah, because i have a way of writing even though other people just receive it this way is if i was in your shoes, i think this is wrong. but if i went in your shoes, how could i arrive at the same position? somewhat honestly. yeah. and i know that i feel that impulse, it's fine to think that i guess really, i mean like the earliest, probably my earliest moment to true true political cartoons that i can think of was i left my parents house and i went to howard university and i took a black dice with and this is a class that basically gave a survey of other black to ask for literally actually from agent huge of all the way out. right. and you got to the slave trade and you had to confront the fact that you would not kidnapped like fuel. you can, you would look at as black sold you. so it was the single came in. gotcha. and this

was like, heartbreaking, this was like devastating. you know what i mean? like it took like weeks for me to like accept that in my mind because the need narrative of having been stolen. right? is so much easier. you know, you can easily assign villains heroes, etc, but no, no use all just ending a site. ok. and so i, i know that they liked these points and i'll start retailing. the don't always look like one plus one or don't was like we want one plus one to look. and i just think it's, it's, it's hard. i think it's very hard for people in 2014, you wrote a, a piece for the atlantic. that is the most celebrated pieces of your career. it's called the case for reparations. and it, you discuss the subject of reparations for slavery and racial inequality. you cite german, these payments to israel after the holocaust, as an example of reparations in the message you right? within days of publishing the case for reparations, i began to feel the mistake, but it took years for the depth of that mistake. invest my own debt to compound.

talk to me about your journey, not just realizing that you made a mistake, but also of, of sharing that with public. well, i guess i see the 1st thing that happened was the critique came a week, maybe tops. and it wasn't like, uh, a yelling criteria is a real critique. you know what i mean? it was like, you know, are i take this seriously? and i was like, yeah. and i didn't understand that here. like i, i just vaguely understood that. i had not been curious about what this state that had taken german rubber race. it actually died. and i knew that i was deeply in conflict with the moral argument that i was making, which was not merely a payoff argument, but that we are trying to make the world safe from certain banks, right? certain systems and you take the money, but you know what, i mean you, you, you,

perpetrated now the, you know, crime of inhumanity. it's not clear to me, you know, what happened there. and so that was a mean media and consistency. i just, i knew i had to correct it in writing. i knew that like, i just knew that i had to happen. you know, i knew i could not because it got so much attention. you know, as i did something that got the same level of attention and it was, it really was, wasn't until i got over it. i, i really got it. and it was all right. it was, i really, really high. i mean, it was emotionally hard and you know, it was emotionally very difficult. and um, i think one of the things has come out of this and you know, i'm sure you've had this experience. i know you've had this experience it's hard to think of yourself as a black person with a level of privilege. the menu made people from the community to have been

completely pushed out of the free center. right. yeah. and they say you thank you. and it was like hard for me to hear that, i mean in part because of the case, the case, reparations, also just like this is messed up like it's messed up that i get to go with cbs and say x, y, z. like that's not right. you know, um i, because i have this feeling that i can point out the basic inconsistencies that are very, very clear that people live live, dismay are like really, really not wait, you know, in their bones. and, you know, the, the thanks to just remind me, you know, of, of the absence of those voices. so you do make a comparison of october 7th for master techs to net turner's rebellion and 18. 31

right here on the show um north ingle. so you made it very similar. yeah, uh, analysis. and the question always is, how do you render a moral judgment on that turner, in that moment there are some who would say, you know, killing 55 white men, women and children is morally indefensible. and there's no context that could explain it. then there are others the same. oh, yeah, i mean there's contact then there is contacts to explain how they are given a context to explain. for instance, if it's rarely apply, i can explain it. but what i'm trying to push on know is to think about the math part of it. yes, yes. because there are people who have been challenged to say what am i stayed with indefensible. unexplainable or, or, and that turn, i understand why those are 2 different things. though no what i'm like, it looks like over a copy of explicable, i think it's awesome. it was horrific, and i wait and it's taking me a long time to get here. what like, i would say the same about and that turner ultimately. yeah, bottom, all hands on the panels back and they are turning over in the agreements. and the

problem is if i could imagine how much of a reckoning it is to get there, but i'm like, i have to be honest with you. once i read the story as the story was, it always bothered me. why? i just told a baby in his credit. i just, i mean i like this is without any political sophistication. no, you know what? i mean? i read out it out about it. i know, you know, philosophical, anything like that has bothered me and you know, i wonder how much of all morality is hard wired or what and i don't mean more rally like one is better than the other. but just what i sent a right. and that always bothered me man, and i understand it, but i get how you can be completely deprived of all right, including your body, you know, the ability to protect you for and how to load. i can make you feel um but i just, i just can't, i can't, i can't get to it. i can't get to it and i and i,

and i, and i, you know, and what i've done and even in october 7 case is i have tried to even put myself, you know, in there. and i, and i understand like i've said this before, like how you feel, how you could feel you have completely circumvented and defined your life. you know what i mean? like, literally kept you enclosed. you know, your parents or grandparents aunts uncles try to fish shot shot at i don't understand where the volume is comes from. does not understand. like you think this is common across, you know, move mets right. like i don't think you can find a freedom movement with somebody did something and you weren't kind of like so sure . i don't know. yeah, i don't know. and for me i think i, i just, i just, i have limits and i butcher and people. i don't know how practical that is. i don't

know what that means in terms of what, you know, what i mean. like probably a lot of people who are in movies like what are you talking about on asi, but as a writer and as somebody who's situation cells in the world of, you know, moral imagination. that's just not i just, i, i am not there. i should not be the person leading that revolutionary movement. i probably shouldn't be anywhere near it. you know what i mean? because i'm, you know, as impractical as it is, i'm probably going to be the ones that say, maybe you shouldn't do that. at least that's my best version of myself. oh, you know, um so yeah. so you've written a book, you put it out in the world, it's being received, been consumed. the history will say, you know how, you know, it's ultimately understood. but what do you do next? you know, historically you're going back to the desk, you're going back to work and move on to the next problem. for all those parties have been in the service of like the ration in a certain kind of way. this book is i won't call an outlier, but there's a way that you've also entered into this other conversation, right?

of, how is that right? when you go back to the desk, do you leave that over there? are you still going to be in involved? but i don't, i never leave any of it over that. oh, you know, i think um, i have a politic or a set of politics that is probably similar to many of my political allies in the movement. but i probably do my best work at some distance. i need to think being that tunnel by myself. you know what i mean? well, in a school in a room like 3 other people, i need to think of october 7, like in a room with 3 other people you want to go by myself. i just don't use that. that is how i, um you know, i just have to write in a crowd sourcing right in the crowd. and so, um, i probably will go back to the desk. i, i do think i like, like, like, i don't know what, what i will do if this escalates because we are in a particular moment. yes. and it may be that, you know, you don't,

you don't have the luxury of doing certain things. you know, when i got back last year, i was like, i'm not gonna say anything about the strip books and come on next. yeah. and that's what i'll talk about. won't say anything about it in an october 7 happened. and then the genocide began and it was like i, i don't have like, i really don't have the privilege of not saying anything. and i just saw this and i have to tell people what i saw. you know, but i, you know, i didn't want to, i wanted to, you know, just, you know, keep going and keep grinding. so we'll see. we'll see that as it goes. thank you so much for joining us on a final. thank you so much. i a marion shaheen. so maker and i've been working in and around garza for 30 years

as i watched the 20232024 devastation of tanza by the israeli army. i looked back at the place i knew from the optimism of 2005 when he is released, withdrew to the destruction of the voice that followed echoes of alaska, as i say, did hopes on al jazeera in a crumbling clinic. the last remaining delta in one of america's course counties, struggles to capture those most in the least able to afford it for many of the people out here can't pay for care. so that's all to your how long can she keep the doors as i'm have spent all mirror so basically you can't just walk away. i'm going to sail witness. the only doctor on tuesday are getting close to the people most affected by those in power is often dangerous, but it's absolutely vital. the story is told we push the fall forward as we can to

the front line. now the smells upset is all the power and a lot of the stories that we cover a highly complex. so it's very important that we make them as understandable as we can to as many people as possible no matter how much they know about a given chrisy. so issue as always, is there a correspondence? that's what we strive to do, or on the council of resulting exclusive stories, explosive results, which is 0 investigations. as the world economy, those strikes are those with a strong result. indonesia is where supposed to be. it's all about the right place for your business to get off the ground upgrade otherwise on with this strategic downstream industry on the clock. in the news, your better tomorrow

the the other the i'm your kyle: this is the news our live from doha. coming up in the next 16 minutes, one of the last functioning hospitals in northern gauze i left in this array of drugs really forces show the building vend waited at resting doctors and patients the goals for an end to be as good.