a service collateral damage has collateral damage. that's what acts reality is leading to what we're seeing that will allow me to push back for a moment is the you are systems corporate israel, affecting its boba's family from the impact of the us selections, the escalating conflict in the middle east. and the urgency of climate action upfront sets the stage for serious debate on out jersey or the face rail and its biggest ally, the united states. again isolated furiously attacking the international criminal court decision issue arrest warrants. the benjamin netanyahu on your go on, most of your fee and nations say about execute the warrants is either mine steps on this sort. so what might happen next base is inside the

to hello and welcome to the program and to and it's from statesman to wanted mine in a day. the latest in the career of israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. they arrest warrants for him on his form of defense minister. you'll have the land of historic that accused of crimes against humanity in israel's will. on gauze, 44000 palestinians in gauze that have been killed. most of them women and children, that plight is largely ignored and israel installed contrast to the fuel res, reaction which is erupt to the since the warrants were issued in the us as well as the biggest weapon supply and allied politicians have found re unity to expressing fury i'm threatening the court with sanctions. so how damaging is vista? israel added, standing in the world? what might it means as well as allies and supplies? and is the rule of international law on trial to will speak to august shortly. but

1st, this report from lower con, a ruling by the international criminal quotes on the se has made is ready prime minister benjamin netanyahu and his phone with defense minister, you of color, and wanted men by issuing arrest warrants. the to is ray, the politicians on charges of commission will crimes. the i, c. c has polarized the world, the spin a predictably furious response from israel and its greatest ally the us. it is falsely accusing me the democratically elected prime minister of the state of israel, and israel's former defense minister, your color of deliberately targeting civilians. this when we do everything in our power to avoid civilian casualties as us president's job item quoted, outrageous on some senate has said they would look into functioning the quote. the us has committed a record amounts of military

a to israel since october. the 7th 2023. we remain deeply concerned by the prosecutors rushed to seek arrest warrants and the troubling process errors that lead to this decision. however, most of your and the rest of the world say they will uphold the quotes, decision, and a rest, nothing you all who all kalonde, if they travel to that territory done. this decision is a binding decision on all state which includes on members of the union on binding this lemon discard this is some of as well the strongest allies are in europe. meaning this, the vision there to hungry. it's right. when prime minister victor old on says he will defy the warrants by inviting netanyahu to visit a spokes person for bridge prime minister care still, i'm a said person would respect the jurisdiction of the i. c. c. one human rights

lawyer says the day of reckoning for israel fleet is, was bound to come. israel as a state over the last 75 years has a node the rule of low. that's what it's really about. not about adjustable, it's about it. and i'm just state, this is never respected. the rule of law. well, lawyers and politicians argue life of people and goes to remain a daily struggle for survival. as israel's relentless on thoughts continues. this is suffice. the daily bombardments face to face and a disease. many living just on the sheets of plastic or flimsy tents. so when they are the hope of finding a single cell or the least lead is about the low underneath the national level, this is a rogue nation. and the roots of the international court unlocked, implemented for some of the cases of tested international legal mechanisms. the us

does not recognize the i c. c, but have nonetheless, in tuesday i simply supported cases against dispos, including rushes. president lucky be a person. in this case, the ability of the court to dispense even have justice is also on trial. laura come to inside story out to 0. the. okay, let's bring it in. i guess in june is francesca albanese, the un special rapid tool, only occupied palestinian tire trees and tel aviv. our goal book is a political commentary to unfold academic, specializing in middle east studies. and in san francisco, we have professor steven soonest. he's a professor of politics at the university of san francisco, a warm welcome table. i want to start with talking about the situation in gaza. and i'll ask you 1st francesca, because of the palestinians,

what time to the policy engine goes to is the most important thing and all of this . will this change how israel prosecute? it's warren gauze at the moment, the arrest of these warrants i wish to see twill. and in fact, looking at what has happened in the last 24 hours, i don't think between the shorter. but we know that the life of the body students in gaza is facing an ex essential search because of the account of the extended is because of the analysis, the goal. so all the, all these through and therefore the only thing we can do is to make searchable possible pressure. natal need to have the general side of conduct a disadvantage and forcing sol. how did, but also advance of justice because of justice is and that seems to be the looking at the response to that is given by many european states to start with. is, is possible if there is enough pressure on every long denied is changing,

but it is to change fast in order to protect a student's life or a do you think it's going to make much difference to pass policies involved in the moment? you know, i'm afraid i agree with this organization and regarding what you said in your opening remarks about how what's happening to palestinians in guys is the most important thing as far as is always concerned. what's happening about standards in gaza is the least important thing is all has absolutely no concern and no value for the past and in bloodshed and for the daily travails of living as a past. and does i, is there a is engaged in doing what it wants to do it? as john completed other disregard, and in fact is all has all of its eggs in one basket that bounced, it is denying, rejecting the court's decision, rejecting international law standing alone making it's well deserved. drugs status into a kind of a badge of pride as i can back away from this course,

adoption is the only one that has steam to these arrest warrants, increase the pressure on israel and the us on how the war in gauze, or is being conducted the certainly increases the pressure, but unfortunately share the skepticism of the other guess in terms of whether or have any kind of immediate impact of but any advances international law and human rights that we've seen over the decades. and indeed this entries has been a gradual process. and i certainly see the indictments as a step in the right direction, even though unfortunately, the palestinians will not be feeling the impacting time. soon. francesca is st. just benjamin netanyahu, and you'll have deland to shoulder the blame for how this war is being prosecuted. absolutely not, but they are the main responsible and the main faces of the car into atrocities. let me say i be not disgruntled with the overall process of this

investigation from the very beginning because of the disconcerting commission. so 1st of all, there is that the over 7 context establishment of the code i'm used to my service and attention, which has resulted in international in crime executing arbitrator operational delivered on a mosque. but also that are even in the, in the r s, where it says, as it has to be an issue, i hear critique. so saying, and how come with that extermination has been mixed? well, i think that was the 1st of all, we kind of lose momentum. this is incredible, step forward and we need to be don't need that bush for further justice. so both against a gone and they come out again and the charge. i would like to saying that the charge of extermination in my assessment has not been taken off by the court. the because not enough evidence was provided for the time all started be should i submit to the for face. they should have been further investigation and evidence provided by the office of the prosecutor. concerning extermination to bones and

artillery fire and not the fire. so, but the process is ongoing, so it would have come and now the tool come, i hope that the investigation wouldn't be enrolled in either a alleged agreement of any sort of especially the architects of the i'm exemption and the taking off the land that the spot the law i law for a little funny will provide, but also, you know, it's the overall archive system in both by yourself at the meetings, conditions of life on the nipple that is still being federal gated. yeah. so all right. yeah. it does responsibility for this more like just in the hands of, of netanyahu all go on to all the others, or is that or other questions to post these rarely societies a whole as it most certainly doesn't start or end with within the, our guidelines. there are many in his own who would like this to be seen as a wrong doing on the part, isn't it the now the only protest movement is at the moment,

is one that focuses on within the hour and is personal. wrong doings is always society as a whole should be at the very least ask questions. it's not put on trial the uh, tremendous effect as an assistant genocide. uh the, the unprecedented uh, um, facility with which it has been carried out has to do with this structure of a system that has so deeply internalize the demon ization that has been characteristic of his early policy. these are the bostonians pretty much since, as well as inception that there's, there's absolutely no need for a detailed organized plan to carry out a clearly defined goals. all that needed to be done was to lease is rose, military is always for us with the aid of the united states and other members of the international community on doza. and liza is completely on repressed because that i think is the true evil of this. the is early genocide is the impunity that

is what has enjoyed since it has existed. and that infinity is what needs to be under question that infinity needs to go and try that is most certainly not limited to, and that's in the, on the steven us person. joe biden said the tracing how much israel is the same as equivalent to how much is it is outrageous? showed his range easily is rails lead us be treated differently from i must be viewed differently. actually what i was invited and said is on through the israeli as a leaders and the a mosse leader. and had they survived the 2 other from us leaders that were, are going to dentist investigations have a, are being prosecuted for distinct and separate crimes. so it's not the same, in fact, the have mass leaders were, were charged with more serious crimes overall. so this idea that there's some kind of bias against israel a really is groundless and, and indeed we look,

look at the fact that there have been 67 of people indicted by the international criminal court since its founding in 1999. this is the very 1st time that any is or at least had been indicted. the 1st time any jews have been indicted 1st time any of body from a pro western government has been indicted. so this idea, there's somehow a bias in the i c. c, that led to these a, an indictment. so it was really officials. this is completely groundless. francesco cook, these ran a couple, have done anything to avoid these warrens being issued. remember they were born repeatedly of and not letting out and enough aid they, they knew these are coming because they've taught because they have stopped it. absolutely. these could have stopped on the 9th of october. these should have never started in the 1st place and they've been given warning dr. words, they should have stopped in october. we looked over when and searched the un

special offer doors war and started warning of duties concern assigned to the seat of the risk of genocide. and after 2 weeks concluded that the genocide was ongoing when the sound of coffee got to see to the proceedings again, a d i. c, j 4 is rest, but each of the genocide convention, wendy. i. c j each should the 1st year. and i see this all provision managers in january and then the 2nd in march, and then the 30 may stick with that stopped when the ice to charge the one security council, the capacity solution or during the ceasefire. industrial dino and this is why i, i just, i finally to really pulling the kind of this event that the easy day let these ease of posey denouncing the icy seas work the grace of this trial. because ex, exactly the old ones. they did such a deeply flawed comparison, should often the entire jewish population around the world because we shall not

forget to drake who was, what's wrong, we've been wrongfully accused of treason. why did the timing out probably told the world that he will raise guy, and he actually has done it in front of the entire world, the solar eclipse. and if we need to do is not only baseless, but also a disgraceful refusal is 3 dyslexic. i'll be in a board of trustees and francesca israel is israel is going to try to argue that it had a, a, has a robust judiciary that could rigorously pro misconduct. why didn't the i c c go for that argument. this is such an important point. this is why my last city for to genocide us going into read your i said we need to look at there's a ton of your conduct in crime and talking to you you too bye blend against the design of your body students and look not just at mtv draws, but the speed east will have to separate clean level assistance. we go on and spot him and introduce treated separated functions that should work as

a check and balance in such a system. genocide would never occur to because inside to make to genocide was array be found by the i c. j in january 2024, and he's supposed to be sure he was off to investigate and prosecute inside. i meant to genocide what that meant to be sure. and donald, nothing other than contributing to create to be in the neighboring conditions for the genocide to, to continue on are eva, seems to have been read unit say across the political spectrum in israel are, is riley's rallying around the flag, or are they going to back the potential, the netanyahu and beloved face arrest of the unity you describe is really not that rare. while is all appears to be undergoing sincere domestic, political disputes. that may be the case on various, some very specific issues. but when it comes to the genocide, when it comes to understanding as policy, there is a very broad and very deep consensus that is or could not have done other. israel's

actions in gaza and, and 11 are just decide not necessarily because of support for subtler agendas. or station, but simply because after october 7th, most as early as and again the great majority of this really is a sleeping consensus. certainly believes that there is no quote in both solution to israel's quote unquote security problem that does not include effectively removing the guys a strip and its inhabitants from the is rarely a frame of view that doesn't necessarily mean kill. i mean, ask is early, this is a, is it a wants to kill civilians? they'll say, just like our prime minister, of course, not that if we have to kill civilians to accomplish this target. and this target, again, remember, is not the destruction of from us. this target is getting full exclusive permission to do whatever we want whenever we want. the 2nd we decided we have. ready bravo is

on the way we need to kill civilians as collateral damage. well then we need to kill as many as have to be killed. we don't want to do it, but we have no other way. there's no real disputes here. in that sense, all is rarely subordinate, that was false. and so there's no threats to benjamin netanyahu. his job is as prime minister, many times has been written off. many times the survived, it will survive this. oh, definitely. i think it's enough to look at these would be competitors. none of them has offered an alternative to nothing else. policies, none of them is called for an end to the war. none of them has suggested that the war has had adverse effects on israel. all of them stand firmly behind that then, you know, in saying no other on so with no other alternative than what his role is actually doing. okay, stephen, what about the reputation of these riley styles itself is the only liberal democracy in the middle east? most of its allies will now have to arrest the golan to nan, yahoo if they step,

but step forth on that territory. what is the reputation of damage to as well, which is what is right, was particularly worried about but in the, in europe, in other countries that have generally been more supportive and more aware of international law, international humanitarian law. i think this is certainly going to isolate the israel further, and he, uh, nothing yahoo in golan really are going to have to be pretty selective in terms of where they travel abroad for this as a will future day. the united states, however, that unfortunately, it seems to be that the, both the leadership of both political parties are for the 1st time really organizing around and supported an indicted war criminal against the i. c. c. now, united states has never been very supportive of the icpc. we never joined. there's even a us law that forbids us and cooperating with it in any way in to do. it was a part of the president,

the authority to punish countries was cooperate with it. that even has a clause that says the president can use military for us to free of any uh, american or, or, or, um, someone, uh it has a uh, an owl. uh, a citizen that i lied uh, a government that was held on behalf of the i see seat. so i think it's a, this is a part of a much of the bigger a problem that donnelly is israel going to be more isolated and the world. so is the united states, the, to this and other scoring. and the fact that the united states is a rogue superpower. that even under a democratic administration, we are unwilling to recognize that the international humanitarian law applies to our allies just as much as it does the 2 adversaries. so there's going to, there's gonna be a much bigger visibility going beyond israel. francesca y, as in the i, c. c going after any senior members of these really military or any of the senior

politicians might not yet happen. i hope so. i cannot tell you why the i c c didn't do so i think that it's a good start to go after the, the main responsible thing that the higher the highest session and the chain of command. but let me tell you something to tell me. there is universal jurisdiction for the crime of genocide. i often say that there is a role the domestic course a can and must play that is still very overlooked because a number of tools including the highest level of the media trade, those will have to be finding in gaza, have double nationalities from australia, from canada, from the u. k. from france there are many nationalities including from other countries that i recently scored the testing finding a nice route. so these countries need to talk to me that are to do show, make on has the justice system. and i hope that civil society would keep an eye on

these because starting to condition can, can contribute. and my school to get to the work of the i t. c. i to see the universe subordinate cannot deal with the entirety of the countless crimes that that'd be needed in the, in the case of assign ebony within the time limit of the investigation of the court . so much more needs to be insured to add to deliberate justice to the part of scenes or a is not a fail amongst so many as well. those with jewel nationality could be subject to universal jurisdiction. when i say there are british or an american or british or another, your opinions, citizen, they could be charged with crimes even though those comes to take place on your opinion or british territory. i believe is some trial balloons has already been floated. i think belgium often proceedings against some of given to us citizenship and these,

these of incidents have been reported in the as early press that then these are the collective psyche. all of these incidents and everything along the lines that the something is suggesting is, is just another piece and a puzzle that we are constantly putting together a jigsaw puzzle where the final image is one of complete and utter hatred for israel. all of it, of course, anti semitic. it doesn't matter what we do will be hated any way. it will be reviled, sorry, it anyway. and if that's the case, why don't we buck all rules and regulations and just do we have to do. and i can't emphasize this enough, the jack box here for result is not the killing of all palestinians. it's not the annexation of palestinian land, it's finally achieving total absolute exclusive discretion in the use of power over its environment that is on wants to get out of this. and this is very visible. we're talking about does that. it's very visible in the ongoing

discussions overseas fire and live in israel wants an official international documents, granted permission to do what other it's want, whatever it wants level, wherever it wants to whomever it wants. that is what israel is after it's not about is a reach, it's a goal, and then it will stop. that is what we want. and as long as we don't have that, well, we'll just show the world implications of denying this. what is our birthday? stephen? what the incoming trump administration try and get pressure the icpc to withdrawal the warranty? is there anything it could do? mike wald see set to become from national security advisor. so it's a strong repulse response to the on to symmetric bias. if the icpc is to be expected from the next us of ministration, i mean, it seems that the public ministration, even more than divided ministration, has a contempt for international law. i mean, president trump is, has content for domestic law. when you look at the multiple indictments against him,

i mean, this is the despite the united states, a reputation spider or self image as a country of law, not of man. the, there we are, have always been an international outlier when it comes to international law. and again, despite putting a such a key role in the founding of the united nations and many of these a international legal statute. so the basis of the icpc is working the looting of these indictments. and so i think really this is going to the lead is going to force americans, i think, to have a greater discussion about what we actually stand for. the one a good thing of helps from coming in however, is i think it might a give some, a democratic politicians, a more freedom to speak out against the us policies that's being committed by a republican president instead of a democratic president. and maybe he just made it,

at least in some of the more progressive wings of the democratic party. and we can finally get some people to talk seriously about international law and all right. and america's obligations. a francesco, might this settle for the consequences, the israel, so the down the road, the europeans, in terms of supplying weapons in terms of the free trade agreement, the israel has with the european union. could that be? so the consequences let me say something that time comes to my mind. first and foremost, listening to what mister goldberg was saying. i do fear i see die so that it would be and he's in 3rd or so it's like of the sense of entitlement and defense, a victim of being in the united by these uh, did he show movement. therefore, the measures that we are discussing, including what i would mention in a minute, must be accompanied by and foster of combustion and wisdom. when also

exercising justice justice stored upon the diocese. and you want to, i think that discourse for them as well. because of course, they are also, they have also been money if you needed any daughtry needed and, and where the g that has struck translated into a political doctrine, ideological hatred which has become political doctrine. but however, i think the one work needs to, to have been ease the member stage, understand that they cannot help solve the question of bio stine without complying with international which means. so during the end of the genocide, all right, we are fortunately out of time. but thanks to august to francesca albanese to our goal, but on to professor stephen the soonest. and thank you to for watching. you can see the problem again. any time by visiting our website out or 0, don't com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page,

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