the much as i'd like to times now i didn't say that that would be for 40 years facing realities. what does donald trump's re election? mean pretty tough. it is most important that we focus on how to work with president trump thought provoking on stuff. and your wife is dealing with the climate crisis is a crisis of crisis good times. but so it's not just $1.00 price is up via the story on talk to how does era on the 6 things bottom from using social media around the strict new legislation in australia. but government says it's to protect the children, but big tech companies on some human rights groups, say one word. one of the arguments of use wells walk base is inside store the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm book and it's me, a new lauren, australia binding social media useful and a sixteen's is one of the toughest of measures of its kind any what? it will holes company such as x, facebook take talk snapshot. i know those to stop teenagers signing up to the apps . most australians that support below, according to polling, but some social media experts say video and as it should be on big tech, we should be more accountable for the content. but yeah, to rely on algorithms to hook uses by identifying that likes and dislikes. some studies say young brains, more easily, molded by what they see online. so one of the dangers and do children need protecting is a bomb like this is a way to do it. we'll explore these issues with, i'll guess in a moment. but 1st this report by kathy i lopez, claudia. it's being described as the toughest small. yes. to be in post on big tech, with australia passing the world's 1st age base, social media ban. the government says it's designed to see scar,

children's physical and mental health. we don't argue that it's implementation will be perfect, just like the alcohol band, full underwriting doesn't mean that someone underwriting never has excess. uh, but we know that it's the right thing to do. the ban, which applies to all children under the age of 16, is fueling and international debate. since i struggle with mental health issues like in fighting depression, i think it would make those a lot less than they already are and could really affects you know, my life. would you take it upon ourselves to regulate, oh, and personal social media usage rather than being forced off of it? restrictions on social media aren't new in france. miners under 15 require parental consent to create accounts. germany, italy, and belgium have similar regulations and across borders. debate about china owned take talk, have raised concerns for years. and certainly this law is also about take to and

is, can needed to be also seen in these uh, geo political context. in the us, some states are exploring limiting kids, social media exposure with some accusing big tech companies of using algorithms to deliberately target miners and increase their revenue. would you like now to apologize to the victims who have been harm, but you're not showing the pictures which at a congressional hearing about how social media companies haven't done enough to protect minors? metal c o marks tucker berg apologize to parents earlier this year. questions about how to regulate social media joins have long congo over the industry. and they're getting louder. has the share of users who've never known life without it. gross. a lot of the study and i like a, i wouldn't like it by my that in spain. i think that should have organized a demonstration because that's crazy. i. c, as in my life, are some tech giants are pushing back against las really as new law raising

questions about freedom of speech and limiting access to information. but australia is a test case and other governments are likely to watch carefully to gauge its impact and how successfully it can be enforced. patsy, a little bit so the yen will do 0 for insight story. the below or is meant to protect minus. so before we hear from a panel, we'll speak with a teenage john list leo. police see about how the move is being received by his peers. here is on the generally founded 6 news, australia, as you will not be younger than your average reporter. and as such, i'm still in high school shall go, i know, along with about half of that team and lot with the whole school use. we have a school camp which goes for 4 days, 3 nights these choose. now, the only reason i bring this up is because on the count we cannot have any electronics to the intellect on that basically meaning that i won't be available to

report on use words and look at your messages from tuesday to friday. not at all. i'm a drawing just now from melbourne. leo, you spoke to the joins select committee on social media and australian society, about old base. would you be where you are today? if that was this social media bon in place a few years ago. thanks for having me. i know i wouldn't be where i am, should i with that, with that social media fan implies 16 use wouldn't existed if that social media batteries implies the realities we've been able to grow. was a national streaming news general. why? having suicide for 2015 year old, see i would be passionate in general is my media and join up and i think you know, that would be a real shame to lose if i, if i have to say so myself, we've been out with the growth for for almost 6 years now, you know that clip is uh, well sort of fee as old as you, as might know that some certainly wouldn't have been hands on. i think this bang generally stifles creativity. i think was in place. how would your pay is

reacts to it when they just get around it? would they find somewhere else? what would they, what would they do? well, i think young people are absolutely going to get around it. look, i've got a younger brother who's 14 years old and i'm, i'm sure he'll be spending the next 12 months cuz the implementation is not for another year. he'll spend the next 12 months figuring out how to get around to look . i think, you know, initially when this was proposed the, you know, some views all might be, this will be good id. but when you look at the past few months, and the effect has been really rushed and gets back and forth on what platforms are going to be included, i guess there's a lot of, i guess, almost as laughing at just how rushed it's pain by people who maybe don't understand social media, so definitely young people get to bypass this legislation for you all. and your last point that this is your, well this is the well, you grew up in particular generations that do people twice your age and older. know what that talking about, you think in relation to this? i think something might be done and i think that's a real problem. we have to have a lot of consultation with young people about

a little that directly affects them. as you mentioned, i was lucky enough to speak to a joint select committee about this. um, but i think we need a lot more consultation yards. public submissions were on the open for 24 hours inquiry on the rent for about 40 hours. this is really significant, legislation is everyone's saying right, the world is watching. that's absolutely true. so you have to get this right. you have to take it really slowly and you have to make sure it's done right. again, it's not even coming in for another 12 months, so i'm not particularly sure what the ra she's other than the fact that an early federal election next year, or later populations. thanks very much for your time. last spring in august in melbourne, we have mach, andrea, which is a professor at manas university school of media, film, and journalism. he's also a specialist in the implications of data mining, an online monitoring in new delhi, we have narrow box the cypress psychologist on the found of cyber b, a. p, an auntie cyber bullying campaign. on and doubling. we have no in black white like human rights lawyer, i mean,

online safety coordinator for the children's rights. so alliance welcome to you will. busy mock i'll, i'll stop with you. we just heard from leo, there in a pa, for making me feel very old. he doesn't think that people sort of my age. all right . really know what we're talking about here. well, he may have a point to some extent, at least in terms of our experience. but his platforms i, the one thing that i think is really important is tied to some of the points that he made, which are also important. and in the way in which this legislation was rushed in and some of the concerns that have been raised about the implementation, i would add that it's important to think about the larger context of the platforms that are being targeted. these are commercial platforms whose primary goal is not to encourage the creativity of young people or to provide them with safe spaces. it's part of their priority is to make money off of collecting as much detail

information as they can about the users. and then using that to market and advertise to them. we know, for example, that there's been a history of companies facebook was found to have been doing research that indicated that it knew when young people were feeling inadequate or insecure. and they were actually sharing this information in with advertisers as something that they claimed that they were able to do. we know advertisers are interested in that information because that's what they trade on, in terms of trying to sell products. so i, once upon a time we weren't quite concerned about exposing young people to funds of barrages of advertising. these platforms do this um with the extra added charge of all of the information they're able to collect. so i think it's important to think about that context when we imagine what type of spaces we want available for young people . i think it's really important spaces for communication and for trade committee.

but that has to be dues hyper commercialized spaces there. perhaps other alternatives. this type of legislation might make us think about the possibility of alternatives. know lean. i'll strategy is communication minister michelle roland. she says it's about protecting young people, not punishing or isolating them. that seems like a fairly sensible approach to take, doesn't it? and i think that is a good one and it's really important to remember the task, fos, it cost is best legislation actually going to do. and i think it might you, if that's actually what you are doing is recognizing that social media companies as commercial organizations, as selling product. do you have a duty and obligation to ensure that their project thursday, intuitive, and safe for children. but the way you make those products say, is owned by excluding children from their rice to be part of the origin,

which we live there, rise to communicate their right to engage their right to get information. you don't punish them by excluding them and you don't punish them and their parents by pushing the juicy on them. it seems to me that we would probably be talking about the same thing. how do you ensure that products that are being around for about 2030 years now? clearly they have been totally on regulated and they've allowed the, we've all allowed those projects to become pipe a commercial to use at my, at terminology which is really good. now we have to recognize for possibly doing we're regulation for children. we're banning the children and young people. i'm not even 4 children were standing children under 16. we are not giving them the opportunity to be part of the dates or somebody age of which we live. so b, bishop is right, and the ministers don't permission to keep children say is

a good one and a necessary one for government. but the method of binding children from the data from the words i would take, you should know it does that. it's actually even practically effective. marilyn in india with social media is, is as wildly popular is, is elsewhere. is it the, is this the wrong target as knowing my suggest too many times? no, i mean, suggested the dentist spend that stick. oh, why? personally, i'm a federal opinion, but we haven't reached a point when we're looking at. so when a stringent measures like a back, we, what we need is a collective move my way of collecting people, deciding that this is not good for children and your children up that age group. if they don't have access, then they don't seem that the missing out or big not being that oh, you know, i don't know about this or something like that. so if i look on the back of the collector, then it is the right time because young children do not really have the cognitive

majority to understand what's in their best interest. and of course, we had only bad news social media app, so that even our bands access to internet. so they're going to be most people out that options. appropriate information can be shared by educators and by fading. so it's not like that one of the laptops off the entire uh, this is the thing i really, especially as a country like mine when the nation is becoming a big challenge. and the usage is very popular. we are a young nation, we are made up young population and a lot of detrimental effect is what we are seeing on the young population as to who those in spot number changes measure. i agree that i don't remember a 40 portal, you know, because to do it. but i guess we can begin with that. so now we have the social media companies responsible to, you know, put in the measures. and can i also ask you narrow because to take talk, which might be one of the target outs has been bonded in the since 2020,

mainly because of a route between india and china. but how's that been any notable effect in the 4 years and stop bomb has been in place? so the, if you asked me if people are still using all the numbers that drastically new yes, that would be a very my 100 percent visual would be i don't know why or figure out the way around it. however, the intent was not just the, you know, issue with the china, but also the content. you know, the d as in the exposure to age in the appropriate context was also an issue. no, unfortunately, the bass dog was actually, you know, sort of dias by me. that i need to get um has speaking over so i would say the government back is lost, but however the band did see that the usage is very many months. and that's, that's why i believe in these kind of strangers measure when the time is right. and then the condition is becoming very difficult to, you know,

actually demand or not can you help us understand the apps? they are all straight and legislatures are and ops things are and i'm thinking of and then what happens when all of the rocks inevitably a pay a years down the road? well it's, it's not clear. yeah. exactly which apps are going to fall within the band and which will be excluded? there's been a lot of reporting that suggests major commercial social media platforms like tick tock, ex medals facebook will fall within the band. there's been some discussion about youtube might be excluded from the band. in part because youtube is so heavily used in the educational sector, which is an interesting question itself. i would suggest that the focus should be on those platforms that are the most progressively commercialized. and that are structured in ways that are designed precisely in order to get, you know, get people to spend as much time as possible and manipulate them in ways that get

them hooked on these platforms in order to serve ads to them. and in order to collect information to more effectively manipulate them, i think i think it's probably the commercial character that we should focus on more than the social character. although that that is not how the law has been framed. but um, but when it comes to interpreting it, it's going to be interesting to see which of those platforms that are considered to be the ones that the parents and kids are most concerned about in their lives. so really interesting to see how the picture. all right, knowing these apps all that to make money at the end of the day issue, should we not somehow be putting the social media companies on notice that things are going to change? yes, i'm, i'm fast really is prayer. it seems to me we can make our best effort is clear. we recognize that these are a commercial companies that like to take another example from

a different area. banks taking our money and they are regulation and required to keep it safe. it's not perfect, but they're strong regulation happening in that area. we are at the very early stages of regulation, protect companies. they are not used to us like near release as it is difficult, but surely what we should be doing is regulation and requiring them to produce face products like we do of other people who have commercial products that they sell, these should be safe, they should be safe for our children, dash is player, but it's hard to, i mean basically it's just easier to explain. we're just finding ours is not good for children necessarily. it's not recognizing that right, but usually it's easier regulation. it's hard to tell us main taking on the tech companies, but that's really going to be the ultimate solution,

taking them on and ensuring that if they make profit, they make profits on safe space are nearly when they bonds tick tock in india, people went to 2 instagram, they went to snapshots of the apps, you comp put the genie back in the buffalo can you it's going to be very difficult . but the, with the children, the advantage instead, because we are doing this collectively, they don't feel that they want to miss out. when the doctor went out and it was for everybody like it was not one particular community, and for a very long time before and you know youtube shots and instagram view scheman, which i like to call people who are living with it without doing so, i'm not to complain. so even this bad i feel that it should not be that you know now the other by me, so 10 popular big companies and these black falls. no good, one should start streaming up, then you lose the purpose. so the idea is that yes, going back, maybe this is difficult,

but we are not going back completely be our only, i'm only focusing on the apps which are designed to be a victim in nature, which are, you know, of looking forward for us to be able to profits and then the when fans, well young people that children. so those are the ones which we at. i then define the internet to be on the safe, big, nice, pretty down treatments are better. so. yeah, that's right. that's all the age appropriate content can be reached out to them. mock, they are threatening government said it when for this legislation, so on. but and the parents from the policing role but shouldn't be prepared for the monitoring what's going on parents making the final decision. i think it probably should be a collective effort to figure out how as a society we want to manage some of the concerns that we have um putting is i, i mean putting the illness on parents in terms of enforcement would obviously be i

think the owners much $200.00 us with what we have now currently, of course is defacto parental regulation. uh, but uh, as has been suggested. there are network effects to these platforms. so if all of a particular peer group are on and then you know, one child is told by their parents by the not we'd rather that you weren't on the, there's a, there's a fair amount of social pressure. and some actually, you know, good reasons that kids can have to make the case. i, you know, i think part of the reasons for freedom legislation, the way it was is to address some of those network effects. um, so okay, i think is a, you know, the point about regulation i think is a really important one. and one of the things that this legislation does is it kind of sends a signal to these platforms. you know, you can't just keep proceeding the way you are and i think there's, you know,

the speed with which it was put into place reflects some political imperatives. but i also think it reflects the kind of collective frustration. but as a society has towards the power that these platforms have in the way, they seem to be acting in ways that although they serve a social function is not necessarily socially responsible are okay. and they're all the, one of the capitalists with his legislation in australia was because he that because of the developmental stage, the teenagers are out particularly that, that brains help us understand why. what is different about a teenage is brain to walnut somebody a bit older and then between these and old to seek children of and even teenagers, they are in the full matrix yours. their brain is not really dev. loved to have that cognitive maturity responsibility box site, none of that. and it is very, very important that at this point we make sure that you know,

we take the right decisions, but they're also, it's a bench, a bench. it's the theater influence. it is the addictive behavior which they are at the higher risk off and these back from the actually exploiting this kind of, you know, but literally these integrated children. and that's where we need to take the stand . it's not that i'm sure like every other country because this is a global phenomenon. every country has reached out to the platforms off for regulations, but it's becoming challenging because of lack of response and the intent from that . and so some of them may need to begin with these kind of instances because like i said, the children are at the stage, the best to judge mental, what's good for them. and as we, as a does need to install them with a very, very strong a and a collective effort. so no lead generation is that was sort of talking about bullying from 1996 to to, to, to 2010 by of the 1st to grow up with asking to like asking to reach sweet taking cell phase, looking for validation from friends. if there's clearly

a lot of evidence, it seems that basically is not a particularly healthy way to begin growing up. that should be some sort of way of managing that shall not. yeah. indeed are short. and i do hope if australia is going to go down this line that's at the same time it's, we'll do a lot of work in helping parents and children to understand what the digital environment is like. how to readers, how to understand is how to managers in some ways so, so that we recognize now we don't have the situation we had at the turn of the century. we are 25 years on so much is done online in our right. that's we have to have a generation, we don't totally know how to use social media, but you know how to stop using them, where there are boundaries where it's appropriate. we have done this with other

aspects of life through all the generations. educators, caregivers, parents where it's appropriate and cool at sports clubs have worked with children to establish a reasonable boundaries between various things they should do. so 13 years ago at children where sneaking comics and books into school and they were being told they couldn't use them, is reasonable to say that you cannot use your social media fun. you're supposed to be doing your job griffey or you're not. so these are things that you, we haven't done well either as a society. we haven't understood boundaries, we haven't understood how to be, bobby, about the digital world we live in. and that's going to be a huge part of the answer as well. mock, if the young people are watching this program and scrolling and watching singleton easily, we pop these model products before have them we people said television would run the brain. we've old managed to survive them way. yeah, there is

a long history as you suggest about regarding moral panics around new media when they're introduced. the question of whether this is a moral panic. it's an interesting one. certainly those people who are critical of the band are suggesting that it is when it comes to thinking about the forms of literacy that both parents and children need. i think it's obviously very important, but it's also important to have safety by design built into these systems. so, you know, you wouldn't tell somebody entering a house that they should have, you know, basic structural literacy in order to know if it's safe. we do expect a certain spaces to be constructed safely, especially spaces that we and trust our children to. uh and uh, you know, regulation. one of the things that would be really important for it to do is to push these companies in the direction of building safety by design into the,

into the platforms. right now. it's just not how it works. and, and again, i think, you know, this response reflects frustration over that fact. and they, raleigh on to all brains. younger brains, perhaps more resilience to change than we might think too. yes, they are. yeah, absolutely. those, again, it's the for to see that for younger minds it's everything goes into fees, they don't get to talk to that particular piece. so it, it feels initially yes, because we are one of the draw something that they already have makes to access to . that is going to be a little bit of resistance because it disconnected. it will work very beautifully because now none of my peers, i use it. so i build fee, which are a lot less leave with, you know, lane government. so want to be seen to be doing something, is this a government just wants to be seen to be doing something or will it have long to evaluate? yeah, so,

so there is undoubtedly that there is best sense of which this looks like a set of for bullets and every government, every politician is looking for the same for a bonus that way they can say this, we keep our children say this, we keep your children's face, this is not the 5th it, we haven't even started talking about the practical way. you would implement something like this, but this is a way in which again, the focus is taken off. but the companies is taken off the people who should be producing, say, products, who should be designing, say, products, and who should be respecting children in those designs. it could even make it worse because now they've seen, they don't have to bother with say, projects for children in australia. all right, thank you very much. that's the practical implications will have to be for another program. unfortunately, we're out of time, but thank you to all i guess to mock andrea of which to me raleigh box, you know, lean blackwell and also leo police say we spoke to his earlier, i'm thank you too for watching. you can see the problem again. any time by visiting

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