thoughts, ideas of fits the practice with nature in the driving seat. i was just absolutely astonishing. the license pulled back even, not very 1st summer. and i'm again sophie, i sent you over to me when one by you in the ring companies revolutionizing this was the sim, using funds in our 5070 here inside you have science. you have a technology, fast fries phone, which is 0. 5 of ash wants to india to expedite, the former prime minister shakes a scene for crimes against humanity, other offences. she slept in august off to a popular uprising ended her 15 years. so one of the chances that she'll face justice by cove. this is inside story, the

hello welcome to the program. i'm a very instead of going once the most powerful person in bangladesh shake, i've seen a is now a wanted woman exiled in india since august. after a huge process ended her 15 years in panama, an extradition request, 6, the return of the 77 year old. so what it says is, judicial process. she faces numerous charges, including crimes against humanity and genocide. i'm not a, all of which she denies. thousands were killed or injured in a crack down before she fled. many were left with life changing injuries, including blindness, widespread corruption of human rights abuses, including false disappearances and detention occurred during her rule. for son has led to her defense on facebook, saying that the extradition request is part of a which fund that hundreds of lawyer lists have been killed since she was ousted. meanwhile, human rights watch says the foreign governments will continue to show to, along with a form, a cabinet ministers unless bangladesh abolishes the death penalty. so what might

happen next, and what are the consequences, whatever on falls for both bangladesh and india. we'll discuss all of that with, i guess shortly. but 1st a report from some of you, a natalie july correspondence with the students took to the streets. they were city preston against the quote to system. the government jobs things quickly. tom simon police opened for the internet was shut off the days. countless people were killed. and so the start of a nation wide movements marched quoting for the resignation of prime minister shape . i see, not all the ministers are then hiding, but just wait and see how the people will go into round the prime minister's house . there's a casino, doesn't resign. voluntarily, we have no choice but to take our next step. by august, full has seen it was gone. she fled to india on

a military plane seeking exxon once held as a pro democracy lead. she's now facing a rest. so i don't know who's to the shop in the interest of a thorough investigation. we applied for an arrest warrant. the court accepted our petition and ordered the arrest of former prime ministers. j casino has seen a, has been accused of a litany of crimes during have 15 years of power ranging from corruption to human rights violations. i'm bangladesh, you start, he's according to extra edition nobel peace nor yet. mohammed eunice is now the interim leader. he says he's doing what he can to right the wrongs of the past. and he's met the families of victims of enforce disappearances. unbelievable. how can a human being do these things to another human being? thought until she casino sent back to bangladesh. many say they'll continue to

demand justice. sorry, give out a 0. the inside story. the that's bringing a guess. so here the nice thing is a senior research fellow at the institute of development studies at the university of sussex. you joins us from dr. sweetwater data is professor of international affairs at o. p gentle global university. she joins us from co kata and shit, and hook his co founder of not a poco, which advocates for women's rights in bangladesh. and she joins us also from co. won't welcome to you will throughout it, i want to stop with you about how will india respond to bangladesh as requests for the return of shakes? i see that it puts permit us to load and what, what could bind, doesn't it? absolutely. it's not going to be an easy process. i can certainly see that in

any case, expedition nice was always very, very involved to get there. in this case, even just stuffing in there. this just seemed a little cool, but which is really in protecting model. one of the, you know, probably initial steps to learn 0 more row then. so i think there might be good for us to, there hasn't been any log onto transportation to the so that's one of the basic conditions. i p also the, you know, extradition cheating the indian by the dish. that's fine, but also the conditions i've got yes. on the be so beach and you have a bunch of good just few was in this is in but if you go to the high side, why don't we just part of the issue a subsidy is what i mean she has the bottom of the longest. so the bottom and the service organization and you know, a lot of di stage of what also there are many grounds and like the seeing how, oh, if there's a feeling that she won't be in the justice system, this is going to be on federal law. would you either just pointed out that you need

to process or something back to both in the problem is the hosting from apartment associate. but see now the reason is that it would not be a charity then. uh, you know, the boss is not here to not be funded. so the many such conditions on the beach, the uh you want to be plans, but again, even the very street got l exhibition request. i was just seeing that the farm and the call to get shows that they have to go be stations. they do the show the nation was and i guess the teams for both sides to be very much engaged to understand them . you know, i'm driving to the point, but i do begin by saying that it's not going to get easy shutting. uh, you know, okay, so it's a little difficult to get an update for sure. so how do you agree with that? what are the challenges? do you think of the shakes, i see that being returned to bangladesh, while under the 2013 extradition treaty varies, article time with post 3 to and that gives the space for india to refuse the request. it's about generally in solution 3 teeth have clauses that allow the

country to refuse to send people back. if there's be a about the justice process will not be followed, 8 won't be fast or the process will not be funded. so i guess it's a for the international crimes. i tried with them that was set up in 2010 bucks. dash. the key issue here is to ensure that the standards are met in terms of international norms that are set and the rules about evidence that's presented our process is that will be fully um, but in terms of predicting what they do. yeah, we'll do. that's hard to tell them. so, mean the government that can tell us what it was. what exactly. so had a if she accused of in bangladesh, once you get a fair trial. oh yes. it is up to back up to the international crimes. try going on to ensure all that processor, etc, and, and photos i, it's hard to say are for me to personally saying what will happen in terms of the

process itself as a citizen, i would hope that the trial will be 3 and partly because we're trying to establish a democratic society, there are many charges against the former prime minister, and that includes crimes against humanity as your report shows. uh some of it is about the genocide. some of it does some of the charges around corruption in size and enough money. so it's about of what not only happened during the july uprising, but also what happened during her 10 or 15 years ago. shooting how credible is the tribunals that is dealing with the charges against the is the, as some alleges on facebook, a political which on against her and city, a members of her policy. you know, i really believe this reading tribunal became contributions during i've seen as a g this because of the number of the seasons. but this was never picking up by the

government. it says the team. so it's ironic that she is not going to face this type enough, but we also that, that i've been in a really job due process and provide free and fed drive, but it is on set to. on the other hand, i don't agree with the political with tons of language because one of the things we saw when the time we know became controversial in 2013 or 14 icon to remember is that we had an uprising off the young people and political supporters of the regime in the which is called the shop on square. and that was actually calling for blood. we had not seen any such thing happen. yeah. there's no big as gatherings calling for blood or vengeance. so i hope this is going to be different. i hope it to be different than that in the really in fact

a i by, by the extradition request as it had done in the bus. you know, one of the accused of the take would you give me was expedited by india. i've been legit. so that it's the best of it, the off extradition. and as human rights watts has pointed out, that because of that been empty, they will not swatches actually ask for monetary on the death penalty. so this is something for the government to send to the i am personally against the debt them and be in any case whether how give us the same job. so i would hope that, that you better learn to become an i'll stick with what she needs to. she needs some, she needs to face to investigate. surely we will come back to that issue of the death penalty and in a little while, but, but picking up on something else that you were saying that shakes massena herself is also cultural and investigation, alleging that many of the desks that occurred during her tenea may have involved

all those be on the security agencies. you think that that argument, then there's some credibility to that? i don't think so, but i mean, but a, for example, um the commission on enforce disappeared in so this has come under this it board, and it actually implicates india loving making complicit that some of the enforce expenses. so how much it has to get from the india on makes it, they should request and i'm too big to assume the justice process. i'm not you swear out a reminder of who shakes. i see that is and how she came to pass in bangladesh and to dominate its politics for so long. interesting to the again, you know, in 2006 the government was supposed been done, which is of the, in the left of the problem is the kind of busy and then time shouldn't have the bottle. okay. to go. government ok. integrated system was introduced and the constitution just to ensure and supported the election commission before the fee

and the next, you know, back to the system that you go really actually. and this was the request of the big but unfortunately, everything politically, the st. jude sorted being the, it was back to the time then, you know, the system kind of collapsed and the, so it's all good to go to google for almost uh, less than 2 years. but it was a gabriel got him that somebody had the backing of the army. so finally, and that's when we should have in hand them end of 2006, finding the gold and in the central composite on the 8 she could see that came to the board with the not just majority that you never seen with the highest waters still not on the sheets along the dish. so when she to go on, i'm done with it. clearly the are most they have done nation was, will be for a box after the nissan the saw her, she also brought in some very positive changes to the boss fusion of but she to go

with the get to get the home. see that go going to not i was in a position to board fiances elections and need to, you know, looked at the default to put the commission in place for me to examine. it. will have suggested that the government is not in a place to avoid eviction, but the next 2 dogs may be busy and then get the holding fee and trigger next. but of course, she didn't speak to him back to us in subjection. she decided to go in with the doctors in default, him started on traveling. so 2014, the opposition bought the lead, both b and b. s. used to bought this event in the election saying that the to have the fee and fair under the, you know, the, the league and you know, in, on a, this is the, this, the message really deep. but the so, you know, grieve, indeed god, it's very difficult for the one to convince the bundle in the interim connection. so that it is the fusion of the, the game in stage north, on 2014. so i'm trying to eat and finally again, oh, you know,

several activities. are there some, you know, society sitting in society? well, it would possibly be and being to be part of the lectures. no. the get to the one was a sports contract store. we. ready the internet started the election, got been, everything's been going fine, but unfortunately all the morning but the links to the big oh, most people they talk to what they, what, what i'm able to because underneath the media was kind of costing, you know, watch for everyone. so the being here for 2nd, no space here at all, or they were completely on the but, you know, just even before the, the was over, the already declared its own position and they had told will schedule, the almost entire bottom into them says buying a few other numbers, so again, 2018 was a very, very one sided next. clear need being because the people serene training, the coming that. but like what did you say?

i said that because they didn't election activity. it happened the night before, but then the board people are still wanting to be the cause they want to. they were trying to make that happen before you actually took the book. so the 24, the election, the game on the same nation with that being b wasn't very happy that the, you know, the electronic thing was on and how the process was created. the one site and also just before the elections, they'll be and people's into minds about finding all 4. i think what them causing me in the world because we're interested withdrawn, you know, inside on several of the charges. and i don't really probably do me israel finding all the to go single bit or know how many lead members i'm fond you put it to the bar is almost over night. so we're going to look that they've already, you know, i mean, i'm sorry, sorry to interrupt you, but time is tied here. well, i'm gonna get us as many views and as possible here. so

a lot remind is what life was like for bangladesh, for ordinary bangladesh, she's under shake, has seen as rule and how life has changed for people since august in life has changed in many different ways. un, under shakers seen as rule, we saw in phenomena growth, but we also saw any quality rising. we saw a fall on a absolutely poverty, but you also saw stresses. and these, you saw basically people traveling in property that is people going out of poverty . quite a lot and called it created a lot of different stresses in terms of our been in pharma. workers are losing jobs and it also created stresses in terms of the price of the cost of living prices that happen. both cobit, you see the stress in terms of what's happening with the banking system. what that means is our results have fallen and we are facing and crisis that. and we have

gotten those from ins and other institutions. but what that means is austerity is coming and we have to pay back with the fragile or even nomic situation, that part from the economy in terms of human rights issues. and what was happening to political, who by the civil liberties. if you think about the digital security act that was replaced by the cyber security act for the actors and civil society organizations space. so it's very limited for common people then to come out and engage with the government. so that kind of space to defense was being limited. and then you also see the rise in violence against women that was happening despite know as being pos, that means that laws were not being implemented. so you had a battery to picked up from after transition. of course, economic stresses are still there. stability being our make key issue and how do we ensure that the public doesn't increase is going to be concerned. the government is taking measures, but it needs to take more modern servers in that area in terms of the questions of

what kind of governance reforms to be want. there are reform commissions that have been set up in shooting is the member of the women's commission. they are looking at to different issues. i'm trying to think through what are the key steps that need to be taken. but the list is very long in terms of what you do to, to bring about the rule of law, but also around justice and accountability in terms of the issues that we are touching on now. so the challenges work for you fired eyes and ensuring that people get to talk about things. the big changes people are speaking out. i'm just speaking out without fear of stage reprice. that is the biggest change should mean . what do you think or re bangladesh? he's want, want to happen now as they struggle with a high cost of living. how important to people out of things like justice and accountability and kind of the interim governing to meet the expectations of the people what, what should be dealt with now? and what should be left for an elective government to deal with the high cost of

living and they need a big concern. and that isn't causing a lot of writing to have been especially food range and the ability to food items. the prices of other food items, but i think the issue of reform to the ultimate, a high of the agenda. and before i would just take time, it would not be the lot to happen over night. the commission soon submitted the reform proposals in that they've been given 90 days. my commission is uh, started late so it would be probably february been resubmit dog uh, recommendations. but ultimately it is the next elective government that has to get the funds. so this is a question of as to how much can be achieved during the game government period. we are not even sure what was the duration of been getting government period, but the do that to me till the end of next year. so we'll, we'll have to wait and see. okay, so uh, what was india's role in keeping shaken, seen a impala what's where it's motivation is for doing so. and how have relations between

india or bangladesh changed since august. the for best of all was it's certainly not changed or better because um, she could see none of them really as all these work, but even within their and we'll send this to cousin 9 generally when she took over the one thing that you address to their you know, most people's invest security concerns. we have seen in the boss, tulsa, you know, some governments and bundle dish of both and on state back design state. that is how often used to attend a, you know, change a security of various thoughts including a lot of others define speeds in the bottom of the song, gabrielle turned in the activities. so this will stop the machine pushing the address to the, the comprehensive list. but that was the beginning of the kind of difficult piece of relationship with the 2 different locked in terms of a partnership. in terms of costs, a lot the facilities, a better idea of stick does that they were working on together. and of course,

as i said, there's a historically on the relationship, you know, right? somebody, you're going to happen to him on the spot beside the bed. does the opposition have also be bubbling up? we've always seen that in there and then we could never find them together. there was one particular phase and they were trying to look at energy to look at various other teen deals which never really worked on. but so we can go on with this, know that there was being very, you know, some what do for us. so for the last 15 years. so why are these domestic issues? well, you know, being brought out the men who are noticing in, you know, of course we're very happy with the, the bar not to leave the relationship was probably say there's absolutely no, don't anybody's mind whether, you know, issues of transit, several other issues which no other government kind of addressed the way it would do. oh, you know, 1st thing was done by right this, the why there has to be no grande, a football player perception back to much of the ingredients as well. and then they'll say, well, actually quite strongly to see what that was similar to that agreement has

including cost. the for some of these draws, it does look both ways. so both of, you know, india was extreme. the highest number of is as new in the building or a to bottom of the she's on medical tourism, another tourism. so it was kind of interdependence, which was doing clearly although the role process office and so in, in this view is i'm going to force is the extra boss issue body. and clearly i haven't been able to pick up that kind of putting them in the shop though. so here's what role to bangladesh is on the play and keeping shake. i've seen in pile . i'm in her essential down full in on what's it gonna take for people in bangladesh to trust the security forces again. oh, let me clarify there. it's not necessarily violations. army, i think you're talking about the role of the police and the rapid action between

man during the july quote this, right? so in a sense, the police and rapid action that to being was used to repress the project stairs they haven't used before. and there have been concerns around that sort of the all the decides based on these forces and how they're used to repress opponents. i'm so pose transition. what we have seen is, of course, changes within these forces in terms of transfers, changes on top of visuals. but why do we have also seen as a discussion on how do you reform these agencies? we have also seen in, in the past few weeks, of the new heads of these agencies apologizing for the past actions. this is something that has not happened before, but it requires substantial reforms. it's not just sort of, there were discussions on changes in uniform and thinking about institutional

changes in terms of salary and sort of have you sort of. so how do you in institutionalize a certain roles within these or agencies, but it needs to go beyond that in terms of not just probably get knowledge him about pop past vaccines. but there are questions about of the shows who are responsible for specific actions and what happens around that. so there has to be some for i guess of truth and reconciliation in this sense. and also there are 2 months of non public about measures taken against those lot responsible for specific actions and investigation. so will we, are you to see what happens? i'm sure. and coming back to the point you made earlier about the death penalty, bangladesh wants india to extra lights, a shake of c, that's the crimes against humanity. but as human rights watch facilities, any foreign government, the sheltering she can see that will be unwilling to return her to face trial. as long as the death penalty remains in place. should bangladesh, a polish it issue,

a moratorium, and a guarantee, a fair trial. i am against a death and mc pursuit, and i'm just a monitoring. yeah. but of course in this, at this time in order to get to take a few now back and then into the dust as close as. yeah. if that is what is required, the monitor audio, if we can deal with the lights on the basis of the story and then met, then i wouldn't support the monitor. yeah. but i am for up to the religion of the death penalty, but i just want to go back and do the bit doors sheet. i would say, i think that everybody in point of view, the public perception here is that what's happening uh, a provided in the was very one site that we have for the killings frequently that i've not, india has done nothing about. there's a lot of anger about that. then on the whole issue of transit and john shipment, it's fun to pants. absolutely. india has drawn to them drug treatment to bind with

districts eastern states to the 7 eastern states, which i think just in this car, heavy from having to go all over uh from the top enough. um. but what we have got to name is tammy. it's nothing almost nothing. and so this is something that makes people very angry. the same thing has happened with the water being taken out as if they need to go. so there's a lot of happiness about the one sided relationship that has enough to submit a bit with my list as gabe and dave and do but good about paying the debt from india. so i would not understand that. so um i would, i would basically say that the, that the anger of a very nice uh 1st. okay. because not only has the noun menu, i really does have functions. and then the other one final question too. so ha,

i'm a bangladesh. she's at least as a little band as the stream was saying, but i'm thinking that that she's at least more hopeful now for the future. what is the mood of the people right now? what is cautiously optimistic? they know that there are lots of challenges and these challenges are not easy. you have a moment challenges, you have the challenge of reform. you fired from shipping. that obviously you will take time. there is optimism around the fact that we are able to see how we think and also we trust people generally trust the insured investment in terms of their personal integrity. but also that reform commissions will do a good job. but there are also expectations from the entering document in terms of what it prioritize is. and also you need to, i log him on different groups in the society as to what to prioritize when and

engage with citizens of different levels. it's about whether we are able to hold those dialogues and have a transferring process because democracies not just about the rules of the elections. it's about, i think those dialogues across the difference is and whether it be sustain those norms and, and has patience. that's where our challenge lies, but b r holz and that is why we must send it any thanks indeed to you also have an as needed. so we brought it up to and should be in a hook, and thank you for watching. so you can see the program again at any time by going to the website out to 0 dot com. for further discussion, join us about facebook page. you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash h a inside story out. of course, you can join this conversation on x i handle that is a j inside story from the avery and for the good of a team here. and though i'll see you again, i forgot the

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