a is like, uh, 9, see 2. so you find you find everything you of a menu leading on. good, nice man. uh, like any more visits or, and everything in the create like, uh, uh, like you're leaving, you do not need. and disney demick recreate like the balance for life. in april, recollection temperature has caused a mass bleaching that hit 77 percent of the welts. carl reese seascapes of glaring white. but once they had been vibrant color, even the anatomies would bleached much to the concern of the fish, the coal i'm home. now some of the color has returned to the marine environment. seasonal currents carrying cooler waters. but temperatures are still too high. you and bertha has been monitoring the refund this past timelines coast, despite some signs of recovery in some areas was an huh. the carl is lost forever.

but the box is completed. so each week and that's what caught up. but the, the colorado at the wrong. you know, uh the c leaving, correct. we can, you know, put on these dates, you know, uh, the date box. and the reef isn't just struggling against the impact of global warming. marine biologists hit save. karl is not only fighting to survive against the bleaching the high temperatures of the water. it's also fighting against pollution, mass tourism in the murky waters of kent young bay, a dim ray of light. a dedicated group of divers had been propagating carls to try and promote re gross most of being lost, but a few, whether the storm, of course, or try to our parts. elizabeth otis actually has everything. but just give us the kitchen to try it again and try to find

a solution to help. but that solution is just a drop in the ocean with so many of the wealth carls under the transit extinction. this vital marine results. i seem to be lost for tony taking out his era in the end and see off the coast of china. the world's best test plan has been forced out of the world championships, refusing to change his genes, as well as governing body of macros, costs him to change out of his jeans at the tournament in new york saying they were against the dress code. no, we didn't chest grandmas to refute. so as far as from the events, that's it from a lower kyle to mccray is here next of the upfront to stay with us. if you count the a pod, anything intervenes, it could be interm had for 4 years, which is pretty much an electrical terms. now i didn't say that that would be for

40 years facing realities. what does donald trump's re election? mean? pretty tough. it is most important that we focus on how to work with president trump thought provoking on self. and your wife is dealing with the climate crisis is a crisis of crisis times prices, not just one price. it's a few of the store on tools to how does era award winning writer and journalist and author a ton of has a coast is best known for his work fighting systemic racism and any quality inside of the united states. but now he's entered the conversation on israel and palestine in his new book, the message culture specs on questions of brace, identity, colonialism, and the politics of writing in separate trips to senegal, south carolina, and is really occupying power star. so what insight can one of america's most prominent writers offer on this consulate? and why has he entered this conversation? now?

earlier i went to new york to speak to town that has the codes and upfront special, the title has it goes, welcome to upfront. thank you man. so good to meet your brother. this is your 1st non fiction book in 7 years. mm hm. there's a way that it's the perfect moment, but it also way that so incredibly, an opportune moment in the sense that went into the genocide and gaza. yeah. and you're writing a really intense and i would say smart critique of these really occupation when you started writing that as a, did you anticipate that kind of response? mm hm. now, i mean, i knew it was going to be a lot of blow back. okay. i need it. there was just no way the day is when i was over there. i it wasn't just occupation in this is i think like way is really high. if, if you, i think this is the hard life, if you go to the people because we can understand that this occupation apart out on

the west bank, gaza like they can understand that is unjust. but when you get to the root sort of state like and you start saying, i don't know if there should be as no stays period. like, i don't know that i believe that a state should set itself up in such a way that one as in the group will have rights that others will not. um i think if i said that in the abstract people say yes, probably right. of course. but i think because of the weights, the real weight and the leaf, a weight of anti semitism and the history of the west, culminating obviously, and the holocaust, the fact that the holocaust is within the living memory of human history. i think we have a lot, you know, around that, you know, as we should, as we should probably. um, the problem comes in when, how we decide that, you know, that should be paid. but you know, once i saw it and mark, i mean to get back to your question, i was, i, you know,

my life will never be the same. my, i oh, i'm seeing it. i was like, this is over, you know, some aspect of my life is over. i've done that before. i written anything. that's the intellectual or political issue for you that was that the emotional, psychological level. oh man, as a point of book, when i talk about how i had gone to um, was retreat. and you know we hiked up the hill and this is like, this is at the end of like the midpoint of my truck. so the 1st half was with the policy and you literally 1st of the 2nd half, with mostly with this group breaking the silence. i agree with idea of that is i know you familiar with. and i got to the top of this hike we took and i sat in this room and i was like, i just had this feeling like you, i'm just walk through a door and you can get back to the other side. you know, and um, i think um, so i knew after that you know what i mean? i know i was right, but i knew, you know, i knew you know what the, what the reaction was going to be only questions. could i do the job that i needed to do? you know what, what, what's, what's key to you for doing that job for executing that job proper. that's

a great question. so i mean, what i had seen, but you know, i'm, i'm a historical thinker and so, um, i needed to read a lot of the historical documents i needed to put in context. what i'm saying they would do it. people who had said things to me about, you know, basic, i'm saying this is what i needed to see them in a more systemized form. i need to re reports. i felt like having all of that, you know, like to me is upset like the morality of it is not complex, but obviously the system of it is. and so coming to try to understand it, i want it on the, on a number systemic level that i feel like i could write and make the basic point, you know, which is to me. we are supporting a system of apartheid. and i don't think most americans understand that and why don't they understand it? you know, i thought that that was the essence of what i was trying to do. but it's interesting because while your essay is largely focused on posting and stuff,

and you actually start with your visit to jada shim, which is israel's memorial to the victims of the holocaust. as a writer. oh, why did you start there? felt like a very intentional choice. it was man, i mean, 1st of all, 2 things have the experience. i had there was very real. so all of that emotional and that was probably day 9. i think that's jumps i'd say, and it wasn't like that was the 1st thing i saw. it was like the last thing i saw, you know, um and the most of the experience that i had as i write about was very, very real. and there was something about the fact that i was at that point very clear about what the state was doing. but that i guess it didn't make me feel like i needed to reject the experience which the state calls upon the heritage that the state calls upon to even you know, do what it does. yeah. that i, that i,

that i was still move by boat and i was wondering how do you write about that? yeah. how you reconcile it and how do you write about it in, not such a way. this is on the one hand, this on the other hand, that my how do you fortune into a singular narrative, right. and as i thought about it, i thought about some of our more nathan dreams as african american. some of the things that we, you know, want it and this came from other chapters in the book. obviously, you know, i own dreams of nationalism and how you can have a very, very real history. and not even just a victimization, but installation and genocide, pogroms, ethnic cleansing, etc. and how we have this believe that that will necessarily make you wiser, a better person. but how in human beings, in general, it doesn't always do that. now i want it to be very clear that i was not writing about a quote unquote jewish era, but a human mistake, you know, added some,

most perhaps it's most acute or, you know, haven't, maybe not even that. but that is maybe i added, most relevant. you know to, to americans and i thought if you don't take the pain, you don't take jewish very seriously. so i'll take the holocaust seriously. if you don't take any semitism, so if you really won't understand what happened here, you know, like, it will be too easy to write this off is just some people doing some bad things, you know, and i loved it, thinking about that man like, okay, so this feels like a version of a history that i'm very familiar with, but accelerated way into the future, right? like times like 10 or something like that, 100 and when i so i am here at this point. i've seen a future. what do i have to say to black americans? i would, i had to say to us about how we think about our own legacy. and it's hard for us to imagine this, but i don't take it as a given that we will forever be without political power. i don't know that's true.

i don't take it as a given and we will, i will be out be without economic power. and if we weren't who we be, you know who we be and i think those are questions that are best as like right now when we don't have you talked about the experience you saw in the mid least being familiar. you, you, you could, you could see that in our own histories, african americans here. i think some of the examples might be what you saw on the occupied westbank check point, segregated roads, sterns on pallets, and the roof together, rainwater compared to the country clubs of that swimming pools. or when you see that was this one of those things where you immediately had a visual response, is that, that looks like the historical memories that i was that had access to all. i mean, the roads right away or you tell me, i can't go down a road net present can say this person has one license like you've got another one besides and i know the size don't literally say power staying is rarely, but they make it clear aside make it very clear who's supposed to be on that road. yeah. and so, i mean, that was clear like, that was really clear. and then,

you know, i saw to point out the differences between, you know, where are used with palestinians lived in an area that was settlements. and in your mind, a word like settlement count calling just like some, you know, rough pie. and me is, you know, what, i mean the brace when i also were really, it's just love it town, you know, me like us actually, you know what, what it is you know. and um, understanding that quote unquote, a legal settlement settlements. i actually subsidized by israel, like, did not like i had it in my head to somebody. this is a problem. you know, what i mean for the is really state, but you know, when you're subsidizing it now so much. and so you start seeing that and you're like, oh, really mediately? i mean, i was also calling about it. you know, um because i felt like people talking about the moral justice or injustice. it is in a very, um, in

a way that i now feel like they're trying to obscure. you know, um, you know, i've said this before, but there really is nothing that someone could do that would make me say a segregation apartheid jim crow. ok. but i just, i don't have access to that. i don't, i don't, i don't, i don't, you know, i use it. definitely. example all the time is nothing, anybody's going to say to me that that person did. i'm going to say they deserve the definitely like i'm just not gonna do that. not a diamond is really not. it will be security that we have to have these roads for in order to protect ourselves and palestinians who not only want self determination . but there are narrative is the palestinians don't what the jewish state to exist and they don't what used to exist as such. yeah, i mean the problem is people think when they say that that they therefore sound less like apartheid less like they sell more actually. yeah. right. they sell more . i mean that, that just shows like the lack of understanding of, of the history of those systems and colonialism. safety is always the point. i am

not saying it is necessarily saved like, i'm the, i don't deny it. do you know what our policy is? what to do harm and validated, we said, well, that's not what i'm saying. you know what i mean, what i'm faced with them cronum faced with apartheid. you know, this is nothing you're going to say to me. and unfortunately, unfortunately, the argument of safety is the exact same argument that people who i don't think some of those will to use that are, you actually want to be in league with it, put you in and not worry company was the security argument, or any argument from the pro is rarely perspective more persuasive to you before you travel there to the sense that it was complicated. it was because i think that plays on a basic notion that we have in our head, which the story is a complicated history is complicated like that, that sorta it, it runs, it feels familiar. yeah. um and the system is complicated. this is a, you know, there's a lot of complication there. you know what i mean. but, but the morality of the, whether this should be happening of it. you know what,

i mean the, if you asked me, you know, the basic, should this country um, be subsidizing the defense of apartheid, of, of taking people's land, of a less what. that's what the buzzwords away, you know, maybe even though like that shouldn't be subsidizing a society that defines democracy by says by saying half the people deserve one set of rights and everybody else deserves less, no messages. no, it says no, you know and is nothing that, um, anyone's gonna say it's gonna make me say yes to that. you know, there's a way, both in the book and in your interviews that you tie, the sort of uncomplicated nature of this whole thing. uh, the more our business of it all, to seeing it up close. yes, but you didn't just say you read it, you read deeply, you read a sheet quality,

you know, advocate and edward side, and it is rarely, historians like many morris. and you tied those 2 things together. a lot of people don't have the opportunity to travel and certainly to travel to israel, palestine, how possible is it to arrive at the conclusion that this thing didn't make any sense without actually going there. think if we had um a news media with different commitment, it would be possible. i don't like we didn't have to travel to south africa. i understand. you know, um, but unfortunately we, we don't, we don't have an i, i've been struggling because there are many journalists who i have in my and who i've looked up to and, and, and, and media organizations that i am myer. and i, and i look up to and i, and i don't think there clarifying things, you know, i don't think there's, there's, there's that role. and again, i, i do think that they find it very hard. and i, i'm sympathetic to this with the cast people or some cases of literal, dis,

literal, like a sons and daughters, you know, grandsons and granddaughter of holocaust survivors as perpetrators of so i'm going to victimize, another group of people that just like like a step we have to give you what i mean by just like in your mind, it doesn't ordinarily click, you know, the way other things doing not a good faith interpretation. human behavior though, to some extent is it is and i and i, you know, i, i have to start from there. like i have to say there's a wrong, but yeah, because i my whole way of writing even though other people is receive it this way is if i was in your shoes, i think this is wrong. but if i went in your shoes, how could i arrive at the same position? somewhat honestly. yeah. and i know that i feel that impulse that it's hard to find the thing that i guess really, i mean like the earliest, probably my earliest moment to true. true political cartoons that i can think of was i left my parents house and i went to howard university and i took a black dice with and this is a class that basically gave

a survey of other black to ask for literally actually from agent, huge of all the way out, right. and you got to display your tree and you had to confront the fact that you would not kidnapped like fuel you can, would look at as black sold. you. so it was it easy? what came in? gotcha. and this was like, heartbreaking, this was like devastating. you know what i mean? like it took like weeks for me to like accept that in my mind because the need narrative of having been stolen. right? is so much easier. you know, you can easily assign villains heroes, etc, but no, no use all just identify all and so i, i know that they liked these points, and i'll storytelling. don't always look like one plus one or don't was like we want one plus one to look. and i just think it's, it's, it's hard. i think it's very hard for people. in 2014, you wrote a, a piece for the atlantic. that is why the most celebrated pieces of your career, it's called the case for reparations. and it,

you discuss the subject of reparations for slavery and racial inequality. you cite german, these payments to israel after the holocaust, as an example of reparations. in the message you write within days of publishing the case for reparations, i began to feel the mistake, but it took years for the depth of that mistake. invest my own debt to compound. talk to me about your journey, not just realizing that you made a mistake, but also of, of sharing that with public. well, i guess i see the 1st thing that happened was the critique came a week, maybe tops. and it wasn't like, uh, a yelling criteria is a real critique. you know what i mean? it was like, you know, are i take this seriously? and i was like, yeah. and i didn't understand that here. like i, i just vaguely understood that. i had not been

curious about what this state that had taken german rubber race had actually done. and i knew that i was deeply in conflict with the moral argument that i was making, which was not merely a payoff argument, but that we are trying to make the world safe from certain banks, right? certain systems and you take the money, but you know what, i mean, you, you, you perpetrated another, you know, crime of inhumanity. it's not clear to me, you know, what happened. and so that was a mean media and consistency. i just, i, i knew i had to correct it in writing. i knew that like, i just knew that i had to happen. you know, i knew i could not because it got so much attention. you know, as i did something that got the same level of attention and it was, it really was, wasn't until i got over it i, i really got it. and it was a high, it was like really, really high, amazing motional the hard and, you know, it was emotionally very difficult. and i think one of the things has come out of

this and, you know, i'm sure you've had this experience. i know you've had this experience it's hard to think of yourself as a black person with a level of privilege. and then you meet people from a community that have been completely pushed out of the frame sunset. right? yeah. and they say you thank you. and it was like hard for me to hear that, i mean in part because of the case, the case, reparations, also just like this is messed up like it's messed up that i get to go on cbs and say x, y, z. like that's not right. you know, um i, because i have this feeling that i can point out the basic inconsistencies that are very, very clear that people live live, dismay are like really, really not wait,

you know, in their bones. and, you know, the, the thanks to just remind me, you know, of, of the absence of those voices. and so you do make a comparison of october 7, samantha tax to net turner's rebellion in 18. 31 right here on the show up north single. so you made a very similar yeah, analysis and the question always is how do you render a moral judgment on that turner, in that moment there are some who would say, you know, killing 55 white men, women and children is morally indefensible. and there's no context that could explain it. then there are others to say, oh yeah, i mean there's contact again. there is contacts to explain how they are given a context to explain. for instance, if israel your pocket explain it. but what i'm trying to push on know is to think about the math part of it. yes, yes. because there are people who have been challenged to say, what am i stayed within defensible, unexplainable, or, or in that turn,

i understand why those are 2 different things. though no what, i'm like it explicable by categories explicable, i think it's like a book. also things are ethic, and i wait and it's taking me a long time to get here. what like, i would say the same about and that turner ultimately. yeah, bottom, all hands on the panels back and they are turning over in the agreements. and the problem is that i could imagine how much of a reckoning it is to get there. but mark, i have to be honest with you. once i read the story as the story was, it always bothered me. why? i just told a baby in his credit. i just, i mean i like this is without any political sophistication. no. you what i mean, i read that it out about it. i know, you know, philosophical, anything what like that is bothering me and you know, i wonder how much of all morality is hard wired or what and i don't mean more rally like one is better than the other, which is what i sent a right. and that always bothered me man, and i understand it,

but i get how you can be completely deprived of all right, including your body, you know, the ability to protect you for and how to load. i can make you feel um but i just, i just can't, i can't, i can't get to it. i can't get to it and i and i, and i, you know, and what i've done and even in october 7 case is i have tried to even put myself, you know, in there and i, and i understand like, and i've said this before, like how you feel how you could feel you have completely circumvented and to find your life. you know what i mean? like, literally kept you enclosed. you know, you're, your parents or grandparents aunts. uncles try to fish shot. no shot at. it's not, i don't understand where the volume is comes from. it's not understand. like you

said, think this is common across, you know, move mets right. like i don't think you can find a freedom movement with somebody did something and you weren't kind of like so sure . i don't know. yeah, i don't know. and for me, i think i just, i just, i have limited a butcher and people. i don't know how practical that is. i don't know what that means in terms of what, you know, what i mean. like, you're probably a lot of people who are in movies like what are you talking about on asi, but as a writer and as somebody who's situation cells in the world of, you know, moral imagination. this is not just, i, i am not there. i should not be the person leading that revolutionary movement. i probably shouldn't be anywhere near it. you know what i mean? because i'm, you know, as impractical as it is, i'm probably going to be the ones that say, maybe you shouldn't do that. at least that's my best version of myself. you know, um so yeah. so you've written a book, you put it out in the world, it's being received, being consumed. the history will say, you know how, you know,

it's ultimately understood. but what do you do next? you know, historically going back to the data, so you going back to work and move you over to the next problem. for all those parties have been in the service of like the operation in a certain kind of way. this book is i will call an outlier, but there's a way that you've also entered into this other conversation, right? of, how is that right? when you go back to the desk, do you leave that over there? are you still going to be in involved? but i don't, i never leave any of it over that. oh, you know, i think um, i have a politic or a set of politics that is probably similar to many of my political allies in the movement. um, but i probably do my best work as some distance i need to think do not talking about myself. you know what i mean or, you know, within a room with like 3 other people. i need to think through october 7, like in a room with 3 other people. you know, by myself. i just don't use that. that is how i, um you know,

i just have to write in the crowd sourcing right in the crowd. and so i probably will go back to the desk i, i do think i like like like, i don't know what, what i will do if this escalates because we are in a particular moment. yes. and um, it may be that, you know, you don't, you don't have the luxury of doing certain things. you know, when i got back last year, i was like, i'm not gonna say anything about the strip books and come on next year. and that's what i'll talk about, don't say anything about it. and then october 7 happened. and then the genocide began. and it was like nice, but i don't have like, i really don't have the privilege of not saying anything. and i just saw this, and i have to tell people what i saw. you know, um, but i, you know, i didn't want to, i want to, you know, just, you know, keep going and keep grinding. so we'll see. we'll see that as it goes. thank you so much for joining us. all right, thank you so much. all right, the of

those, the no duke, those that understand teach a maverick school headmaster in postal comfort. go fast, determined to change the fortunes of an inner city community played by urban the cape poverty of the legacy of secretary and the russian arms of students with the knowledge of the ancient greek philosopher. participate on your 5th, participate in everybody else's young play to a witness documentary on the jersey, you know, just 2 decades ago, you'd be lucky to see the congo powers once red, native endangered, but school cheese, that decline is of any age what have hundreds of volunteers supporting ambitious campaign to make new zealand printed it free by 2015, we used to catch 5 minutes

a week now was lucky enough to catch in the may be one month. the campaign will require via ratification of thousands more. rach stokes possums and weasels. it has changed to put the flight plus key. the key we is now breeding and these hills for the 1st time in living memory, new zealanders sunset tower dice, because they would know land fighters is one of those islands that have evolved separately from the rest of the world. and we have actually unique animals here. he hopes these hills could again become what they once was a natural but century the

. ringback the . ready ready ready the hello until mccrae. this is the news. how i live from coming up. in the next 60 minutes, the passenger plane crash lands in south korea hitting a barrier interrupting and signs. at least 176 people are now confirmed. it calls for the release of a gallons a hospital during to up to is ready for us as detained him during a ride in the besieged news.