the the. ringback the staff can defense ministry says it's counted out several strikes and focused on new tele ation for a time. last week. it's the latest acting, growing cross border filings between the neighbors. focused on says it was targeting um groups of moments frontier. so wherever relations so tense, now this is inside story, the hello again on james phase. the hopes with good relations between pakistan and afghanistan of to the telephone re took power in 2021. instead pockets tom says in

numerous attacks on his territory of being launched from africa. and so it, with hundreds of its soldiers killed, a charge tell about officials in kabul deny, but it's unlikely they'll accept any pockets on demands against their ally the, to the it tell about and pockets donald t t p. crucially, such action could risk opening space for groups, including i saw enough kind of stop. so does this mean board attentions between the 2 countries will continue to escalate and where does this leave this 300000000 people on both sides colt between the cross fob? we'll discuss all of this without guessing a moment, but 1st this report from victoria kayden b. so again, it's done says it's as strikes on pakistan. what a retaliation for this multiple attacks on it. se impact teacher proven stays earlier. it's not a bad set. it strike on this boat. the village targeted fights is from the pakistani taliban. the desk and officials say nearly 50 civilians were killed for the guy where let's see what videos said the,

the casualties including women and children, are tragic and heart wrenching. it's a heinous act by observing area. one can clearly see there are no terrorists or members of the pakistani tell about only civilians who are either off guns or devastating refugees living here and starve ation. attacks by the pakistani taliban in pakistan have searched since the ask and taliban re gained power in 2021. but the pakistan accuses the taliban government in kabul of allowing the pakistani taliban and other armed groups to operate freely in afghanistan. charges tell about officials denies. we have had some incidents on the border with the funny son, a science major concern of tenant high doubts and centuries inside to find his son, remained high on our bilateral agenda. most of the skirmishes between pakistan and afghanistan, a cover long by 2600 to them to buddha, noticed that you ran blind tide about officials say it on saturday divides past

june communities. pakistan was accused of backing the can tell about during his move in 20 year loan fight against the african government. but analysts say the pakistani taliban o t t p. as in so much as a domestic threat, most of them are young packaged on the men. the ttp, many of them are also now i've gone to the bottom volunteers, including people who develop their expertise during that long insurgency, explosive experts, experts and in the using i d's. so pakistan is very much getting a taste of his own mets. pakistan expelled more than half a 1000000 as can nationals last year, accusing them as involvement with the pakistani taliban. the cross border exchanges a fight last week. all the latest in a series of escalating strikes, but there was also a worrying sign that relations between pakistan and afghanistan could be deteriorating. victoria case and b l,

g 0 for inside story. while that spring, you know, a panel of guess to discuss sort of this today and is in his mom a bad side colleague, shaw a former secretary to the government of cardboard pop tune was home and trouble affairs and retard inspector general of the pocket someplace in kabul, oh, but do not buy here. i don't like to the american university of afghanistan. and also in his alarm about kathy can in the june list and form a news director for the associated press in afghanistan and paul cust on a very expert panel. thank you for joining us. before i get to the latest class is i'd like to perhaps provide a little bit of context. well, if you is all around the world, and 1st we talk about 2 different telephones today. one is the one that took power in 2021, toppled the government. i should have gone off to that long military campaign against the us a night. so. but i thought i'd like to to tell me about the of the tele,

by the pocket stone taliban sometimes known as the 3 could tell about pockets donald t t p who all day. how many of them all of that, and what do they want as well as updated get the bottom focused on architecture. i did a boys to around 2006 uh, 2005 and it was infected umbrella organization. a different uh, the mindsets already a really well where the big, the liking during the a lot of job previously they weren't getting drunk swamp into that a gift dollar bond. but this done, a similar veteran asked that he gets all the money in the style and then drank design was to step dish and slab exchange. we did bucket style. so and uh, it is surely

a better level. so then the 1st law and now what do you pursue? it, is there a beautiful won't be name and that later uh then uh they also join hands with daddy get the bottom of august on in the white. if i take a guess, a lot of guns and the natural forces or what the, this is a brief history that's very useful. now the other thing i want to just clear up from us before we discuss what's happening at the moment, is this very long frontier between the 2 countries. about 2640 kilometers long known as the durham line, that is going back in history for when india and pakistan and for that matter was part of british india colonial tarrot trade. drawn up by a man called sir henry, multiple durham 2 was the foreign set country of british india. in 18. 63. he drew the map of the line on

a map over della this is not recognized as an international border, but i've got a son. why i thank you for having me here, james. it's always a pleasure to thank you for the lovely panels you've set up. i'll just start off 1st with morning. the 50 or last flights last and the bomb being a few days ago was due to sony displaced people who had sought refuge in buck the car and, and pushing the lights of innocent children and women were lost upon us on, upon being established as a state under the reign of how much of the ronnie back in the 17th century, 18th century is, loses territory soon after much on each step, to seek incursions. this area that is now known as the type of boston wow, is controlled by them. eventually, british control is a started on this area, the 3 angle upon wars that follow later on. uh,

and with agreements between the british and the kings. and based on a d, mark cation off this territory on this territory is controlled by british india. eventually, after the partition, this area is left to pockets. donny sovereignty and ultimately a funds still challenge this. the mark cation, separation of the colonial legacy office of separating the same. it is indeed the same. people sharing a very long history together across to the sides. um, and so even though it operates as an international border, it is one that is core to the of an identity, to not recognize as an international border, which is why you would see most of, and governments referring to it as the door underlined rather than the drunk border coffee, you are a west and who has traveled very extensively in this region. probably more than

most, i want you to paint us a picture of this a long frontier because it's does to in places it's mountainous and all those, for example, the route that spectacular route from charlotte and focused on to july, the bad enough kind of stone over the car, but pause pockets. dawn has put fencing in places, but it's still a pretty boar porous border give. give us an idea of what this long long long border is like. yeah, thanks very much james. to me. okay. should be here. i'm. yeah, it is. it's, it's very porous, and the practice done has established a fence along the full length of the board. and now it created only in recent months. i think the final leg of it. but really this border has been used by the different try. both impacts done that can stand crossing freely

and also share the different invasion. so in the soviet square in afghanistan, in the 1980s in the us use and focused on used parts. dennis, the staging arena for the fight against the soviets to the wrong kinds of the plant, a foot patch through hundreds of put foot catch drew from pakistan to afghanistan. that the bridge i didn't travel to, to weapons were carried over. it's a huge, smart mean, a route all along that border. so it is a very difficult border to, to police because there are so many entry and exit point, but talk to son has put the defense up, and that really has further exacerbated. i think the d b, a centuries old, a afraid over this, this border and it's never really been addressed. and, and, and afghanistan and afghans are very few. busy that they will not accepted and as

long as it remain sort of this, there's some flash point for the 2 countries. it's a very difficult, it's very difficult to see how to go forward, but practice time, and i think it's exacerbated because back, so really has, in, in the last 23 years of fenced the entire border. and that really has cause to tax, even during, as you've done each time. and during the day when the us led invasion with what's going on in afghanistan, there were a lot of attacks across the board with tax then as well to try to stop defend seeing to, to between the, i can national forest to send the pack studies much much worse since 20. 21. of course it's. it's really now it has has a trip. bolton, and much more since then, kathy, it's, i think it was me reminding of you is that it's also one of the most dangerous places in the world. and you are pretty near that frontier 10 years ago when you

were attacked to critically wounded and you wonderful, a photographer on your new drinking us was killed in that attack. it's a still a very dangerous place. yes, thank you very much for mentioning idea. james is very kind of you and yeah, it's a very dangerous pace. i don't know now in today's world that is the most dangerous . but it is certainly a very dangerous place, but it's mostly a very dangerous place for the people in that area. both on both sides of the border in blue, just done and patches, tons of hybrid book to more province in impacts. done and for the the app and didn't talk to you as a teacher named gerhardt. it's a very dangerous place for, for the people on both sides of this border and it can every, every, it's consistently ignored. and, and um, even many dash, 20 years when the u. s. in nature, were there in any conversation to try to say may be, it should be dealt with as

a way to try to establish sovereignty and to try to move relationships forward. and it was ignored because it's such a difficult problem to tackle. and there's no easy solution and, and it just, it continues to faster, really for, on both sides of the border act. let's move to what's happened in the last 10 days or so. the pockets to on tell about, stormed a check point to an outpost in south, was there a strong impact est on it and killed 16 soldiers on the 21st of december, then the pockets, donny strikes on the 24th of december. and then the ask on response that came with a tax on pocket stump positions on saturday, but that's not the style. so this attracts have been growing. oh yeah. they not

uh yes, uh the gave me to it was of the better shouldn't be queued up on his thumb. and buck us tom was better day. it was weird. sure. dump are off for security, but a stand insult was gonna stop bumping up. let us start for kim and on the 16, not a few. but the independent sources also stated that it was more than that then uh, investigation buckets. but the style of gathered over the area of strikes it, but people in square or they were lot of casualties. bucket sob dreamed that the, this was a v as we. busy should say bomb us would be your beer. but at the same time, there are today was by a lot of the song that the children and woman were also getting. well, let me, let me just interrupt you. that won't let me interrupt you their act. uh, because you say plays why i've got a son, but claims by the united nations, the u. n. i to the senior agents in cobble with you nama. yes,

said the credible reports, the dozens of civilians, including women and children, were killed. and they said international law replies, usability forces to take necessary precautions to prevent somebody going home. in other words, that you and don't say this very clearly, potentially these could be what crowds or eventually yes. busy busy you it has skate but it has to be. busy edwards, together to edit and walk into and uh, but at the same time i, it would be a lot of style and then also be able to get a blaming and bit of news. the. busy busy busy i bought technical light is not administered that they have hit the bucket started our tree, they have use the wars protected the lives as you have already been. should that they do not accept a jewelry line as an international border between bucket spot. and i want to stop,

but you're a lot. so if you will bed that the in march, also similar to ty, enough care of strikes, were carried on by the bucket. stop. uh, is it a reaction to a cross the border? dex with democracy? not as buckets, not his own way is clear that b a c essentially at the height of that that was the stop. and they're holding mucus of leadership of the plan and the beer edison, their bus. i went to chevy. oh, better. so tags exhibiting about the style, and we shouldn't be a, it all $8050.00 that us or tax it'd be getting the bucket stop, which i have that there have been at least $900.00 casualties at most of those are they actually have to get it out i guess a should go to the bus that the hobby for a beautiful and the police special ed and the bible to show a buck

a saw this also on vicar that. busy dog is on the red line as well as of our decks on the bug or some of these good sir. hope you're doing a um, i am a bit surprised by the escalation right now, because that was a new diplomatic initiative. and in fact, of the pocket stone strikes came on the very same day, was it pockets. tom's newly appointed special invoice to afghanistan. mohammed said the had been in kabul, meeting the foreign minister and the interior minister. what do you make to that time? a james? first, i think it's really important that we care for the terms we use. i think the term retaliation to attacks conducted within pockets done by the t d p, which is a locally insurgency. they are local store pockets done according to their records, cannot be a retaliate tree attack when you cross borders and actually bombed a sovereign state. on the other hand, yes, there is confused messaging. you send

a diplomatic delegation. after months of tensions to sit down and have a conversation on the issue of d, d p. however, on the same night of the meetings, you conduct the image admit in bumping. now the t d b issue and this escalation intentions are symptoms of a much larger problem. honestly, the problem can be broken down to 2 subsections. one is the fact that, but this one actually looks at the sun, the online was mentioned earlier, but it seems that the 5th province syndrome focused on where they keep looking at the finest one is the territory that belongs to them that they do not acknowledge the sovereignty and independence up, but has led them to constantly fuel term one within the country and heart bring on the state elements throughout their history. on the other side, there's the war on terror narrative. the problem with that is, and we see woodside the cons presence, they constantly undermine diplomatic efforts because the warrant are meant that you

could ignore international law. you couldn't to ignore borders and sovereignties of state by declaring a specific element a terrorist group. dehumanize them violates international law and bonds across the borders and somehow that is retaliation. and that does legitimize all of these are problems that can only be solved once an ownership of the problem. and the fact that local insurgencies are emerging and focused on are symptomatic off political tensions, grievances within local populations that need to be addressed without heavy handed approaches, lead in them to displace themselves into a finest, sundance do not find the sort dignity there, but be bumped at night and have 15 percent lives lost. cathy um, i think it's interesting that when you go back to the time when the, when nato and us come on those fighting the tyler bomb, they used to been mon, the safe haven, the taliban had on the other side of the boat. while it's the 2nd frontier area, the same on going space that is now being used as the battlefield against pockets

the i, i think it's very interesting. james, in the end of the do it makes, it makes me very to point the bands and this happened in the town. i remember last in power and installation was used as the, the method of dealing with them rather than engaging with them is that these groups didn't find safe havens and a hair crowd administer the act, the minister of information. and then just yesterday or today said that the g t p will be allowed to stay in afghanistan. there are a number of troops in afghanistan and not all of them are ones that the gentleman was there. he is not much data in as far as zone is there. um and there are several other ones that we use. are there the i am you the is on the move and it was back has dental appointment number the un has have put out a report a couple of months ago. busy just looking into many different groups. so the

reality is, is that since the child of mine to power in 2021 again, that the numbers of attacks inside of downstairs increased dramatically and against the military forces. and by the g g p, who do have a place that i've done it in a way to is also very right. so the good things have started to turn on his head and, and, and i can send him some real issues in the loop just on an, in the harbor book to our profits at k, p. k. on the board of is with the advantage stand where the, the boost population are very unhappy they're, they're, um, they're demonstrating the people in k b k are demonstrating in a forum agency, right on the border with afghanistan, you have a very nasty, sectarian battle going on and, and, and hundreds and hundreds of people have died. and in the g t p, you're taking advantage of that. and so the tcp intervention are able to take advantage of pretty as, as a way to, to right. you said turmoil an impact is done. and so they have been put to is

imperative storm agency and they're also helping to fuel district terry and the islands between the she is and the soonest. okay, let me bring, i let me bring it, let me bring it. that'd be bringing. i've thought now because we had mentioned the pollutes just on the where there are, there's the pollute just on liberation army fighting for self determination in terms of the security forces of pocket's. dom, your thoughts, his impact is dawn. how much concern is that with them compared with the pockets that i'm talking about? well cosign is really concerned as far as the lower tier, but again, see, is concerned. and it has this form that that fits as far as. and it does look like it is confined to, but not just on below to predict ends as compared to the really just simple, the rick in ability to see which estrada national uh, the why buckets on is

a more good sort of as far as, but much better diffuse good sir, because they are also hitching big get lot big. got it off, but the star which is she had to go other uh been too long so. so yeah, this is the, this is the lake with choice. this is the language choice. the chinese link the belton road. this is the and the important route for china. and i believe the baluchistan liberation army is also been attacking chinese personnel and chinese interest. i. yes, of course. most of the are tax water gets diabetes. at the same time, they are also targeting the but just be a big uh, uh, groups, uh what, what get bid as labor rose arctic dishes, the king that since the already and the various industrialization development, then the work sort of going to be marginalized for there so it is a, uh,

basically i would say globalization of what it says uh the extra. busy that something is of uh below then it is okay. oh, but do not given the tension possible escalation, all the diplomatic options and diplomatic plans. so you can sort this out. where is the venue? i mean, i'm speaking to you from doha that mean lots of talks here on, i've got a style, and is there a role for the un, or is it? cuz i don't think it's western nations anymore. is it china and russia who need to get involved in this? there always diplomatic groups um, even with this groups with and want to conduct for the that one the legitimizes by me. but being us terrorists, they're genuine grievances. there are political demands that need to be accused heard and some sort of internal negotiations need to be done. there's a problem with constantly escape good thing. you've talked about b and b and maybe it is then considered as

a foreign indian agenda. and group of the ttp is considered as a long time to bon group, then pgm, which is the best them to have to is non violent movement. they're considered as funded by a broad as well. ultimately the escape putting needs to stop focused on need to look into, it's internally shows, but also i do understand that they do have concerns about the displaced people who are within upon his funds territory. movements off to be across the borders, the fund positive on have clearly stated that it's very difficult to mind. this border has kept the right key. pointed out, however, saw the cons. arrival was a step in the right direction. there are conversations that should be held, but before that conversations, even the start, there needs to be a clear vision on what focused on wants to do about that to be was a button to bucks. plenty of parties don't know exactly what the ultimate solution they want for to be is going to be that cannot expect the impossible to make enemies out of the ttp. especially considering that they have an i escaped the

threat already at their doorsteps that they are dealing with. they cannot risk making any more enemies, especially at the time when they have very little of trust when it comes to block us off. okay, are the bringing kathy one last time as we look at possible diplomatic options. and i think we have to just mention this, but it's 3 weeks until the inauguration, trump will be back in the white house. do you think the us has any interest in this region and getting involved in this region again, and particularly donald trump, who has made that for the last kind of storm, was to, to get out as fast as possible. or i think that the international community has to return to re engage with that. that is that so that i can configure rather solution between 1996 in 2001. they isolated the total then you see the ministration with very little options of who to engage with headwind gauge. and so you're, you're reducing the options rather than increasing the options to improve life and

that again, a stand. and so i think, yes, just a rule i think yes, probably is from donald trump because under his administration they didn't come up with the, the agreement. there was a lot of discussions with a lot of people who are now in positions of power in a, in a stand. if they do want to do something, do they want to? i'm not so sure. but people have to remember the last time you ignore that image, then you, you ended up with the serious problem in 911, ignoring afghanistan and ignoring pakistan is not the answer. there has to be some sort of innovative thought that says yes, get off your moral high horse, get back into the, the region into the country and talk to the people and, and let help them figure out what they want. that's. so that's my, thank you. thank you very much indeed. thank you to our guest today side to alicia, overdoing about here. and cathy gannon, we produce this program every day of the year and they'll be coming to you every day in 2025 to watch on television, on our app. and on the website out to 0,

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