that's cost uh who died at the age of $100.00 is now being laid to rest in his home state of georgia. i was off to the ceremony of the national cathedral, adam fisher reports from washington, dc. but none of us live at to himself. the past, present, and future came to see fit well, those who knew of the button of presidency together to pay the final respects as a member of the exclusive club deposited to be cocked or died. h 100, a one term president to arguably made a greater impact after he left the white types. washington's national cathedral states the country's good fight with the plymouth politicians, an ordinary people joining the president to bite and effectually touching the coffin. as he prepared to remember his old friend, the friendship to started in 1974. i was a 31 year old senator and i was the 1st center

outside of georgia. i maybe for senator to endorse his candidacy for press. the doors. facial i believe is jimmy carter's in during afternoon. karen, karen, kirk, his work with the congress center mediating conflicts advancing democracy on 3 elections. one him a nobel peace prize in 2002. this time in the highest office brought the comp david peace accord. it also brought the uranium hostage of 77 years rosamond. i was for sure, i'll just either at the national cathedral in washington or that's it for me, mainland of as an image. there's more information on the website out. is there a dot com? did you be unscripted is next day with us the

the papers said this is evidence, this is right talk to you. and then the people that we confronted was saying, hold on, that's art. that's outside of my name is the other sites. my phone in hinesville, i live in london in berlin. i write books and make exhibitions in around the forensic agency, the crime scene as an image, raise a kind of forensic architecture. we operate like architectural detectives. we use live data found videos in architecture analysis to investigate the crimes of states and corporations, and to support struggles for justice the

. the wanted to ask you if there's any particular objects or pieces of architecture or you know, moments in history that you come back to over and over again that you're kind of continually mining and seeing from different in different ways that are productive to you to. so it's almost uncanny that the entire practice of forensic architecture that is using architectures investigative techniques. but it's also turning the forensic case and looking at the crimes off state. me actually sprang out for an analysis of a single object. and that was the 1st book that i've written on on forensics. it was, was my colleague, thomas keenan and we wrote a book called mingle, it's called the birth of forensic aesthetics. what's the relationship forensics and

the statics for us if was the reading of the process by which the attempt to identify whether that skeleton that was found under wrong. the mark ray in brazil was that auth notorious. not see war criminal murder. dr. file schmidt's joseph main color, found this call, they didn't have dna yet, and they started reading the scuffle traces. in fact, what was interesting is that we discovered that for forensic contra apologise, they were reading bones like they were photographed, exposed to life, like in negative is exposed to light. right? so nutrition and wounds and everything else with kind of be inscribed and the scarlet itself has emerge as a come for the surface of inscription. and it kind of showed, with looking at the entire process,

it made me understand that the forensic process as happens in court is actually to rhetorical process, mature tauriel nations. you need to show an object to an audience you need to make claim to that object. and the relation of meaning that come, went on. so maybe one specific question, but don't open a bigger history if. if i were to turn the question to you, what would you say? i think would instantly jumps into mine is a painting in the k, but less go in a very in accessible part of the cave. apparently it didn't go down this long shaft . when you go down this long shaft in this pit is a very, very unusual painting. that seems to be like a humanoid kind of figure that appears to have the head of a bird. and there's like somebody that looks like a right na service and some things that might look nice to be strange. exactly. and

this is a painting that has been detached from history, knew the any meanings that were ascribed to it at one particular moment or the moment that was created have been lost. yeah. so when we look at that image, the only thing that we have available to us is our imagination. and when you look at the history of interpretation of the image, it's very interesting to check that things encounter on a 69 on a stick and contests. stone, so the pigment is so, you know, spread over, you know, a particular surface. yeah. and the capture, the moment of that encounter, the sticking the stuff. right? and, and the magic of images is that to that exact moment of encounter with somehow transforming mean different things. but it means different

things because we want to say different things because of every given period. so we have another stake to make. so an image is always a think bait, an image is always to interpret the images, is to think about the future is to the beta we are in where we want to be. there's a quotes that you, you know, that is really cursing for me. something that you've said, and i think you quoted somebody else he said in the photograph environment is a photograph of environmental change. can you explain that? yeah, so that was um, a young photographer that i know who's helped me on some projects named william with pseudo just said that he was photographing some work in in around portland. and it really resonated with me because i thought that's, that's correct. like every photograph is a photograph of environmental change, and i've seen that over the course of my own work. you know, i used, i started out in the early 2, thousands i was going out into nevada in the desert. i was taking,

he was very long distance pictures of military bases. and i'm not sure that you could take those photographs anymore because the fires, right? you know, with the really the air, the in the west is very different now. then it used to be and and when you're making images, you're at these more, you know, at the, at the kind of edge of what's possible to make images at. the that becomes very pronounced becomes very, very visible. you know, the amount of particulate in the air. yeah. super visible is the amount of the temperature. yeah, it reminds me that people now do some kind of scientific forensic analysis on painting by turn. yeah. right. did you have? yeah, you know, you have hundreds of feet off those here. yeah. it take britain and each one captures light in a particular way,

but these one can only capture light to capture the pollution. yes, the industrial junction. absolutely. and the way that the light is refracted, the way the things come out of focus. so it's, it's interesting because it's not really an analysis off of the object it but the medium. well, i think i want to kind of like a salary that you know, so, so for interpretation looking, yeah, it's cetera. so the battle field today is a field of images. yeah. palms that deliver to target via multiple cameras in the relation between you know, camera on a drone, a camera on the roku cameras, on the ground body cameras on, on, on combatants, etc. so we have a field that is photographic. yeah, image is a part of the war images all. yeah. so the image is speak to each other, continues transferring messages that are, you know, instructions within coded as images. yeah. so high levels images that speak to each

other. i think that that means that the images themselves are kind of part of conflict. no, it's not. it's not the meaning of the images but, but the image is himself a kind of munition seen a very strange battlefield that happened both on the ground. it didn't happen and i'll screen and, and i was social media as they want to draw you in to one can put the right to you . oh i, i completely agree with that. and so you're, you're, you're talking about, for example, what, how does the targeting computer in a drone work or a targeting camera? and what it does is, takes images automatically interprets those images i use as evil. here as a target, there is not a target, there is a combatant, non combat of what have you. right? and so that, that image making is a part of the kill chain, you know, as a, as they call. and that's, that's really weird. now in terms of, that's a very,

that's kind of a new thing. yeah. history of images and that's really interesting to me because of course, the politics of interpretation to that. yeah. right. however, that politics of interpretation is hard coded into the algorithms that are analyzing the software. and we can see that same logic in things like artificial intelligence very clearly, you know, artificial intelligence systems that will try to look at your face and analyze, are you happy? are you sad 10, i capitalize on the emotions that i see in the face to try to sell you something or in new kinds of cars that have cameras installed in them. that watch you driving them in order to transmit information to your insurance company about whether you're distracted or not, or what have you looking to modulate your insurance rates. in real time. i wanna ask you do you think are or images, architecture can tell the truth, as i think to us as

a complicated term. i thing to say truth is to give, been ethical, sometimes political meaning to facts. i think fact to something this produce. i believe in, you know, verification rather than very tests, which is out the origin of the word truth because verification is an imminent practice is a relation between people. it's a relation between different bits of evidence that that kind of brought together. and it allows for a collective intelligence rather than a transcendent god given truth. i believe that truth is a back of field. i believe that the images have part in that battle field. and i believe that the interpretation of images also themselves part of that kind of war . so this is why image is need to offer also, resistance and interpretation of images need to offer resistance to that field. it is infringed upon the thing, say that the world rather than we enter, you know,

we left our to go into they are kind of feel no different to dollars. and i think that also speaks to the enormous responsibility that i think comes along with being somebody who makes images. yeah. but who interprets them? yeah. so i think we can open it up to the audience questions now. you know, you've talked a bit about presenting evidence and you've talked about the prosecutor's being consumers even at x solutions. to what extent do you see that quotes with the national or international are adopting your and every time you allow for open source intelligence or 3 d modeling or the i the phones are frequent struction to be admitted. you open the door a little wider, a lot of people to, to pass through it. so there is that is the most important kind of battle that

we're engaged with. like allowing people to see and hear things that are presented by, you know, under quoted by civilians on the ground. so my question would be about the machine learning models, the ones which are particularly involved with a i, and deep learning regarding these kind of models. it's extremely difficult to create some models which actually achieve some stated goals . it's even even more harder, harder to avoid these models and having accidental and color through that causing causative images or unintended consequences. have you had any experience with such kind of problems or using a such kind of format? is it gonna analysis on the 1st thing that you do is you just look at the training

set, right? so all the machine learning models are all based on a training set, which is in the case of vision models, it's thousands or millions, even billions of images that have been labeled in particular ways. and i did a big study with my friend k crawford of what was at the time the most widely used of these training sets for object recognition, which is called image net. this is, that is something like 14000000 images organized into about 20000 something categories and you look at it and you realize this is absolutely horrible because what the people who made the dataset did was they, they basically took a version of the dictionary. they said, let's take all of the nouns out of that lead. do that by looking at the training data in many cases. now this is something that people like open the i have learned from. and what the newer model is,

the training set is simply the whole internet subscript, the whole internet that becomes the training data for the model. now in terms of proving harms by machine learning systems, i don't think that you need to do a forensic analysis of that. you can simply read the business plan of the companies that are developing them. right? and there is a common vision in many of the applications of a i, which is a vision of a society in which human lives and the most intimate parts of human lives are sites of extraction. right. and we can think about what the predictable consequences of that are. i. e, on one hand, sample of fine quality amplifying per carridy on one hand. and then amplify, you know, some really of the most kind of holistic parts of culture. because that produces

engagement and therefore value. i wonder if you would talk a little bit about things tend to waste of battlefield has entered the cultural institutions and educational institutions and the kind of pressure that those spaces are kind of coming on the yeah, we had an exhibition, a big exhibition here. co cloud studies. it was uh, it opened in manchester and it's close almost immediately because the museum found that one of the language and this is a language that supports and 90 colonial struggle in palestine was very clear about that. was calling things the way the where was referring to apartheid, such a colonialism, etc. where inappropriate or even on to submit it can be accused as a, as, as a jewish person here fund to semitism. i found a bit bizarre, but the, the minutes,

it's politics and her into those field they've become but the fields themselves. and we need to not only fight for the messages that we say, but for the capacity to speak for the ability of a speak can be heard. and this is one thing and not or is that we can never consider the art and cultural domain. the forums of thoughts and culture to be neutral of politics themselves. and very often we find ourselves investigating the very museum of gallery where we are presenting and such a case happened at the with me when we were invited to the with me being uh, realizing that one of the funders of the exhibition was actually an honest dealer. and invest to go to the with me at the, with me. so that was kind of the way to turn the, you know, the kind of the white cube of the black black box into not only a space where you can reflect upon politics. you could say what politics mean,

but could explode outwards and become a political event that has consequences in that member of them. we think both had to resign because many other things in activists that did some tastic work but to which we were on a to contribute. so we have been talking about the images, data on the social media and whatever the end user consumes throughout the world. and the whole of internet, i think, is controlled by a few companies who have these inter, continental somebody, and cables with the data centers all around the world. what do you think is the role of these companies in terms of so rylan's, in terms of the control of the data that everyone else is consuming? why start and then nothing? yeah. so the, so the promise of the internet was, of course, that it was famously meant to be networks of networks, right?

as that evolved, there were certain places where those networks needed to come together named things internet exchanges, or an example of that under st cables or other examples of that. and so those became very juicy targets for intelligence agencies. if you are a military intelligence agency, you can try to plant sensors if those choke points for lack of a better word and begin to conduct nicer bracelets is. now, in parallel to that, you have the rise of the google's in amazon's of the world who increasingly are building cloud infrastructures that are similar. we concentrated not necessarily geographically, but in terms of who controls them. and those become sites of surveillance, very similar to the kind of surveillance, the d, c, h q might be doing or in the same might be doing. but the point is a little bit different. the point is to again,

to extract value from that data by any means necessary. the point is that what this adds up to, in either case, both in terms of the infrastructure and in terms of the businesses themselves, is almost the exact opposite of what the promise of the internet was. you want to add to that, oh, maybe just a comment on you know, that kind of the idea or that some companies or some states have complete control over something. i don't think any system has complete control of anything. i think they are technologies. that's a dangerous and that in trevor and in the practice of forensic hockey tech, to try to reconstruct, to try to understand these technologies for 2 purposes. one is how to evaluate the, you know, the to evade something. you need to know how to operate, how to come to slides yourself from digital surveillance, say in the 2nd is how to turn it around. every tool off domain

nation can be 2 or 3, but ration, you know how to do that. and i think that this is how this is why you need people that i think, you know, like the q trevor know that the can think creatively about this technology precisely in order to see its weak points. every empire has called up, you know, i mean, look at what happened with a, you know, see a perfect control with a drones. we were all scared and obsessed about. but the thing time of projects, the entire occupation in afghanistan, any rock has been destroyed due to kind of very much on the ground resistance. and i think that we need to be wary of that technology, but we need to learn it in order to, to anything against itself. and in understanding it, it seem perfect. i think that's a really good point that you're making, which is that all infrastructures, all built environments have politics built into them literally built into them. but

those can take many forms. yeah. the internet did not need to be the greatest tool of mass surveillance in the history of the world. that was a set of decisions were design decisions even. yeah. and so i think well, on one hand, we're both concerned about these questions of analysis and how can we learn something, but i think we're both similar. we concern with how do we re imagine you're building our button environments differently, building different politics into them. not only is a way to care for human life now, but because we know institutions move into the future, how do we try to care for the future as well? the, a lot of the stories that we cover all highly complex. so it's very important that we make them as understandable as we can do as many people as possible no

matter how much they know about a given chrisy. so issue the smell of that is all of the power as i was just a recall respondents, that's what we strive to do. the sun rises brilliantly here, the history was written. the nature became theory is here, the beast in a totally the timeless journey shake model was for translation. and international understanding is inviting nominations for its 11th edition, starting january the 1st and ending march the 31st 2025. for more information.

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