a, as in alpha on those ripples catch me is natural. beauty is in spite of thousands, a mobile emperor, i've described it as evan on one way to exclude this beauty is on the chicago's overall to going to those abdur. rashid has been working on this boat for more than 10 years. he says the recent entry of the ride hailing giant over has made a big difference, such as other before my partnership with ooh, but we have to wait to day or 2 to get a 10 to take taurus on a boat ride is every jetty has more than 40 she collars, we are really happy with this change. most importantly, we know now in advance how much we're going to end. that out around $4000.00 chicago is operating on the league. the ride takes in the sites, which also varies visitors between floating market and hospital, its bordering the lake. but some boatman, a where you have the nuclear. i'll keep you on the garden. many of us don't even

know how to operate the cell phone. this is our sol livelihood and we depend on it . so it's really concerning y'all. so you think you have, i looked at it is not fair. it is totally wrong. this is our rights. let us earn a living and make our decisions. why is over interfering in our business here? look over, how might them they may interfere kind of match up to 3000000 to us visited caching me at last, you know, i expected in 2025, many like cali on with a little buzz entry into the chicago market. this is a good experience. i to me, of their marriage a very professional and at the same time we're actually, i've been looking for some kind of industry to like this because i live the local guys usually charge and this is a 7 books have been signed up for the start with the flows that being credited to the boardman at least now. but somebody called me see the small time chicago owners on no competition for the multinational like the fact no, i can. i'm a should how get this business for this product that us only with some kind of

regulations if needed. old willow chum, culture and traditions of cash means of a major joel centuries who pre of tensions in the region to visit. many said they should be protected at all costs. not fernandez, just 0. alright, well that's it for me down jordan, much more intimation, of course on our website, which is 0 not come. there it is, is free news continues here and i'll just say about up to studio the funds for to. so for me, extension dental watching the we are going to see these things and seen some legend some clothes for the stories of

civilizations. that market history wants. this is where the story of savannah do you have any stories to tell when i was looking at c, i a torture programs. i was looking at front companies that have been set up to facilitate them. and for me, that was really a interesting allegory for state power. what i try to do my work is very simple, which is to try to see the world around us been up to the deserts and photograph secret military bases. i have tracked spice satellites and photographed them with telescopes. my name is trevor pat. glenn, i'm an artist and i'm from the united states. sometimes we present in exhibitions and, and we have the reviewers that said, this is evidence,

this is right talk to you. and then the people that we confronted was saying, hold on, that's art. my name is a sites man born in high for i live in london in berlin. i write books and make submissions in around the forensic agency. the crime scene is an image raise a kind of a trends and car to picture we operate like architectural detectives, we use live data found videos in architecture analysis to investigate the crimes of states and corporations, and to support struggles for justice the well, i wanted to ask you if there's any particular objects or pieces of architecture or you know, moments in history that you come back to over and over again that you're kind of continually mining and seeing from different in different ways that are productive

to you to. so it's almost uncanny that the entire practice of forensic architecture that is using architectures investigative techniques. but it's also turning the forensic case and looking at the crimes off state. me actually sprang out for an analysis of a single object. and that was the 1st book that i've written on on forensics. it was with my colleague, thomas keenan and we wrote a book called mingle, it's called the birth of forensic aesthetics. what's the relation between forensics and the statics? for us, if was the reading of the process by which the attempt to identify whether that skeleton that was found under wrong, the mock ray in brazil was that of notorious not see war criminal murder. dr. file schmidt's, joseph main color,

found this call. they didn't have dna yet, and they started reading the scuffle traces. in fact, what was interesting is that we discovered that for forensic contra apologise, they were reading bones like they were photographed, exposed to life, like in negative is exposed to light. right, so nutrition and ones and everything else with kind of be inscribed and the scarlet itself has emerged as a kind of as a surface of inscription. and it kind of showed, with looking at the entire process, it made me understand that the forensic process as happens in court is actually to rhetorical process, mature tauriel nations. you need to show an object to an audience you need to make claim to that object. and the relation of meaning that come well done. so

maybe one specific question, but don't open a bigger history if. if i were to turn the question to you, what would you say? i think would instantly jumps into mine is a painting in the k, but less go in a very in accessible part of the cave. apparently it didn't go down this long shaft . when you go down this long shaft in this pit is a very, very unusual painting. that seems to be like a humanoid kind of figure that appears to have the head of a bird. and there's like somebody that looks like a right now service and some things that might look nice to be strange. exactly. and this is a painting that has been detached from history new the any meanings that were ascribed to it at one particular moment or the moment that was created have been lost. yeah. so when we look at that image, the only thing that we have available to us is our imagination. then when you look

at the history of interpretations of the image, it's very interesting the change about every 10 years. you know, it starts in the 50s. the interpreters of elizabeth is the primitive hunter, or what have you. and then it goes in the sixty's, it turns into an interpretation of this must be some kind of ecstatic drug induced totally as a nation or what have you seen it goes nearby here. so what's interesting to me is, what is that very strange space between the image that it appears to be making a claim is certainly making a mark and send it off into the future. you know, like a message in a bottle. but it's and then in decipherable language. yeah. right. yeah. and so to me it's a very beautiful crystallization of, of the problem of and the magic really of images. yeah. because there's

a moment that when image is a made me, whether it's a photograph or digital physical photograph for the painting. that things encounter other 69 on a stick. and countess stone or pigment is so, you know, spread over, you know, a particular surface. yeah. and they capture the moment of that encounter. now the stick in the stone, right? and, and the magic of images is that to that exact moment of encounter with somehow transforming mean different things. but it means different things because we want to say different things because of every given period. so we have another stake to make. so an image is always that the fate in the image is always to interpret the images. is to think about the future is to the beta we are in where we want to be. there's a quotes that you know,

that is really cursing for me. something that you've said. and i think you quoted somebody else you had in the photograph environment is a photograph of environmental genes. can you explain that? yeah, so that was um, a young photographer that i know who's helped me on some projects named william with pseudo just said that he was photographing some work in in around portland. and it really resonated with me because i thought that's, that's correct. like every photograph is a photograph of environmental change, and i've seen that over the course of my own work. you know, i used, i started out in the early 2, thousands i was going out into nevada, in the desert. i was taking, he's very long distance pictures of military bases. and i'm not sure that you could take those photographs anymore because the fires, right? you know, but the really the air, the in the west is very different now. then it used to be and

and when you're making images, you're at these more, you know, at the, at the kind of edge of what's possible to make images at. the that becomes very pronounced then becomes very, very visible. you know, the amount of particulate in the air. yeah. super visible is the amount of the temperature. yeah, it reminds me that people now do some kind of scientific forensic analysis on painting by turn. yeah. right. did you have? yeah, you know, you have hundreds of feet off those here. yeah. it take britain and each one captures light in a particular way, but this one can only capture light to capture the pollution. yes. the industrial revolution absolutely. and the way that the light is refracted, the way the things come out of focus. so it's, it's interesting because it's not really an analysis off of the object to it but of

the medium. well, i think i want to kind of like a salary that you know, so, so for interpretation looking, yeah, it's cetera. so the battle field today is a field of images. yeah. palms that deliver to target via multiple cameras and the relation between, you know, camera on a drone, a camera on the roku cameras, on the ground body cameras on, on, on combatants, etc. so we have a field that is photographic. yeah, image is a part of the war images all. yeah. so the image is speak to each other, continues transferring messages that are, you know, instructions within coded as images. yes. a high voltage images that speak to each other. i think that that means that the images themselves are kind of part of conflict. no, it's not. it's not the meaning of the images but, but the image is himself a kind of munition seen a very strange battlefield that happened both on the ground. it didn't happen and

i'll screen and, and i was social media as they want to draw you in into one camp with the other. yeah. all right. do you, oh i, i completely agree with that. and so you're, you're, you're talking about, for example, what, how does the targeting computer in a drone work or a targeting cameron, what it does is, takes images automatically interprets those images. i. e says even here is a target, there is not a target, is a combatant. non combat, what have you. right. and so the, that image making is a part of the kill chain, you know, as a, as they call. and that's, that's really weird. now in terms of, that's a very, that's kind of a new thing in the history of images. and that's really interesting to me because of course there's a politics of interpretation to that. yeah. right. however, that politics of interpretation is hard coded into the algorithms that are analyzing the software. and we can see that same logic in things like artificial

intelligence very clearly, you know, artificial intelligence systems that will try to look at your face and analyze, are you happy? are you sad 10, i capitalize on the emotions that i see in the face to try to sell you something or in new kinds of cars that have cameras installed in them. that watch you driving them in order to transmit information to your insurance company about whether you're distracted or not, or what have you looking to modulate your insurance rates in real time. i wanna ask, who do you think are images architecture can tell the truth to i think to us as a complicated term. i think to say truth is to give, been ethical. sometimes political meaning to facts. i think fact is something this produce, i believe in, you know, verification rather than very tests, which is out the origin of the word truth because verification is an imminent

practice is a relation between people. it's a relation between different bits of evidence that that kind of brought together, and it allows for a collective intelligence rather than a transcendent god given truth. i believe that truth is a back of the field. i believe that the images have part in that battle field, and i believe that the interpretation of images also themselves part of that kind of war. so this is why image is need to offer also resistance and interpretation of images need to offer resistance to that field that has infringed upon the thing, say that the world rather than we enter you know, we left are to go into, they are kind of feel no different it out and i think that also speaks to the enormous responsibility that i think comes along with being somebody who makes images. yeah. but who interprets them? yeah. so i think we can open it up to the audience questions now. you know,

you've talked a bit about presenting evidence and you've talked about the past. the cute has been consumers, even at exhibitions. to what extent do you see that quotes with a national or international are adults in your, your techniques to actually bring people to justice? yeah it's, i mean it's, and it's, it's a fascinating question because the legal world is the most absolutely conservative, maybe after our to the but every time you take something a case of us to court, you have 2 bottles. one is for admissibility is showing that you can the, today, we have the expertise to do it. the image practitioners architect, artists have something to say that that and have something to discover that either perhaps motive analysis cannot. and then when only when that is a stablish,

you can, you can move to the 2nd stage and, and prove your case. and we see that the field of evidence that admissibility is changing. and every time you allow for open source intelligence or 3 d modeling or the i, the phones are frequent struction to be admitted. you open the door a little wider for other people to to pass through it. so there is that is the most important kind of bottle that we're engaged with today, allowing people to see and hear things that are presented by you know, under quoted by civilians on the ground. so my question would be about the, the machine learning models, the ones which are particularly involved with a i, and deep learning. regarding these kind of models. it's

extremely difficult to create models which actually achieve some stated goals. it's even even more harder, harder to avoid these models and having accidental us and called at the closing cause that lives images or unintended consequences. have you had any experience with such kind of problems or using such kind of form and sticking to analysis. so the 1st thing that you do is you just look at the training set, right? so all the machine learning models are all based on a training set, which is in the case of vision models, it's thousands or millions, even billions of images that have been labeled in particular ways. and i did a big study with my friend k crawford of what was at the time the most widely used of these training sets for object recognition, which is called image net image. and that is something like 14000000 images

organized into about 20000 something categories and you look at it and you realize this is absolutely horrible because what the people who made the data set did was they, they basically took a version of the dictionary. they said, let's take all of the nouns out of the dictionary. we're going to assume that a noun is something that can be represented by an image. and then we're going to create a data set of images that correspond to all the nouns. now you can see there's a problem many, many problems. one problem is that there's certainly nouns like that, that don't look like anything, right? there is also lots of nouns that are incredibly racist, missing prospect, homophobic, mishondra mistake. what have you. those are all words and those words have politics . and when you simply translate language, you know you're uncritically into a machine learning system. you're going to reproduce those politics. so in terms of

looking at those kinds of harms that are built into a model, you can very simply do that by looking at the training data in many cases. now this is something that people like open the i have learned from and what the newer model is, the training set is simply the whole internet subscript, the whole internet that becomes the training data for the model. now in terms of proving harms by machine learning systems, i don't think that you need to do a forensic analysis of that. you can simply read the business plan of the companies that are developing them. right? and there is a common vision in many of the applications of a i, which is a vision of a society in which human lives and the most intimate parts of human lives are sites of extraction. right. and we can think about what the predictable

consequences of that are. i. e, on one hand, sample of fine quality amplifying per carridy on one hand. and then amplify, you know, some really of the most kind of holistic parts of culture. because that produces engagement and therefore value. i wonder if you would talk a little bit about things tend to waste of battlefield has entered the cultural institutions and educational institutions and the kind of pressure that those spaces are kind of coming on the yeah, we had an exhibition, a big exhibition here. co cloud studies. it was it opened in manchester and it's close almost immediately because the museum found that one that that language. and this is a language that supports and 90 colonial struggle in palestine was very clear about

there was calling things the way the where was referring to apartheid. such a colonialism, etc. where inappropriate or even on to submit it can be accused as a, as, as a jewish person here fund to semitism. i found a bit bizarre but the, the minutes, it's politics and into those field. they've become but the fields themselves. and we need to not only fight for the messages that we say, but for the capacity to speak for the ability of a speak can be heard. and this is one thing and not or is that we can never consider the item cultural domain, the forms of fault and culture to be neutral of politics themselves. and very often we find ourselves investigating the very museum of gallery where we are presenting and such a case happened at the with me when we were invited to the with me being uh,

realizing that one of the funders of the exhibition was actually an honest dealer. and invest to go to the with me after with me. so that was kind of the way to turn the, you know, the kind of the white cube of the black black box into not only a space where you can reflect upon politics. you can say what politics mean, but could actually explode outwards and become a political event that has consequences in that member of them. we think both had to resign because many other things in active as that they've some tastic work, but to which we were on a to contribute. so we have been talking about the images, data and the social media and whatever the end user consumes throughout the world. and the whole of internet, i think, is controlled by a few companies who have these inter, continental somebody in cables with the data centers all around the world. what do

you think is the role of these companies and don't just so rylan's in terms of the control of the data that everyone else is consuming? last start and then nothing. yeah. so, i mean, the, so the promise of the internet was, of course, that it was famously meant to be networks of networks, right? as that evolved, there were certain places where those networks needed to come together named things, internet exchanges or an example of that understand cables or other examples of that. and so those became very juicy targets for intelligence agencies. if you are a military intelligence agency, you can try to plant sensors if those choke points for lack of a better word and begin to conduct masturbate with is now in parallel to that, you have the rise of the google's in amazon's of the world who increasingly are building cloud infrastructures that are similar, we concentrated,

not necessarily geographically, but in terms of who controls them. and those become sites of surveillance. very similar to the kind of surveillance that d, c h q might be doing or in the same might be doing. but the point is a little bit different. the point is to again, to extract value from that data by any means necessary. the point is that what this adds up to, in either case, both in terms of the infrastructure and in terms of the businesses themselves, is almost the exact opposite of what the promise of the internet was. do you want to add to that or, you know, maybe just a comment on, you know, that kind of the idea or that some companies or some states have complete control over something. i don't think any system has complete control of anything. i think they are technologies that be a dangerous and that in trevor and in the practice of forensic khaki take to try to

reconstruct, to try to understand these technologies for 2 purposes. one is how to evaluate that . you know, the to evade something you need to know how to operate. so to kind of flows yourself from digital surveillance, say in the 2nd is how to turn it around. every tool off domain nation can be 2 or 3, but ration, you know, how to do that. and i think that this is how this is why you need people that i think, you know, like the q trevor know that can think creatively about this technology precisely in order to see its weak points. every empire has called up, you know, i mean, look at what happened with a, you know, see a perfect control with a drones. we were all scared and obsessed about. but the thing time of projects, the entire occupation in afghanistan, any rock has been destroyed due to kind of very much on the ground resistance.

and i think that we need to be wary of that technology, but we need to learn it in order to, to anything against itself and understand that it seem perfect. i think that's a really good point that you're making, which is that all infrastructures, all built environments have politics built into them literally built into them. but those can take many forms. yeah. the internet did not need to be the greatest tool of mass surveillance in the history of the world. that was a set of decisions were design decisions even. yeah. and so i think well, on one hand, we're both concerned about these questions of analysis and how can we learn something, but i think we're both similar. we concern with how do we re imagine you're building our button environments differently, building different politics into them. not only is a way to care for human life now, but because we know institutions move into the future, how do we try to care for the future as well?

the is there any sign it will be for the millions of palestinians in gaza for now stuck between an outgoing biden administration and an incoming trumpet industries. now that americans have decided to put forth back in the white house. what kind of country in the world expect the quizzical look of us politics the bottom line. after nearly 2 years on the road, these dancers are still committed to winning american hearts and minds. true ukrainian ballet, 20 year old nicholas co months dance career began just as russia and david wolfe also on for him. very smart. but we also want to end times as far away as for good conditions. the company's mission will be not only to entertain the audience,

but to win support from the american public for ukraine. at a critical time, i will have the horrible war between russia and ukraine, settled, president elect. donald trump has questioned us military 18 crane and has vowed to end the war. the question is, how. as the curtain rises on a 2nd to trump presidency, the dancers fear ukraine will be forced to concede territory to russia or that their brothers and fathers run out of the weapons on the front line. as is there a war on guys, a continue new series takes you beyond the headlines of the company. if you're not chose, you're not entitled to this thing such a price award winning for us are fun to my brutal meets renowned palestinian human rights. defend a lot about the whole young generation. they have center to palestine as part of their identity as such a innovation that twice the defense world refrain on

a jersey to the the, the other on the clock. this is the news on life though, coming up in the next 60 minutes. the death toll from wildfires and los angeles rises to 10 full cost is $1.00 more high winds are expected to fan the flames. for israel's bombardments of guns that shows no sign of ending a new report suggest the death told could be 41 percent higher. then officially recorded european and us diplomats what do.