we are to see these things seems of legend some gloves and the stories of civilizations that marks history wants. this is where the story of vanity, how many stories to tell of the major protests outside the annual conference of jeremy's fall like a sd policy is candidate for john. so is something must be for patients of immigrants come out of $5000.00 views, health policy. when move, how in a general election next month. this isn't the side story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm nora kyle: since its founding in 2013 the f. d has become a major political force in germany. the far right policy is polling seconds ahead of a small general election next month. let's say it's unlikely to seize power because the major policy is refusing to enter into a coalition with it. but the f t could have a significant say, and then you've been dis, doug, as the government would be under pressure to reflect its vision. the policy is cons that the chancellor honest vidal is cooling for a tough policy on immigrants. a manifesto also includes germany leaving the euro, andrew investing its decision to abandon nuclear power products $1012.00 by those views to like a quote with the voters and unable the a f d to become unimportant tire and german politics. oh, well, federalist voices hold. it's 5, what is got these and other issues with our ex mats and just a moment. but 1st, this report by victoria gave them the eastern town to reset the far

right to, to just the gemini s d promise supporters of radical manifesto ahead of a general election next month. it's candidates, the chancellor alice lloyd who said key policy is what she calls we migration. yeah . hi, i'm, i'm, and we have a plan for the future of germany, which we will talk to in the fed, 100 days of government participation. close, the boat is completely on 10 by anyone entering illegally and without papers and send a very clear message to the whole was vital also said gemini must reopen. it's cold and nuclear power stations resume. gas applies from russia through the notes stream pipelines and ted down wind turbines. move in 8000 protest as opposed to the ac gathered outside the venue, shouting slogans such as know to not see. don't fit you ask dave to all for us to

a if the stance for exclusion, for hatred in agitation. we want to show very clearly that we are the majority that we are in favor of open borders for society based on solidarity as to the da s d was founded in 2013. it's popular in east, in germany, which was communist rules until the full of the boat and rolled in 1989. germany's domestic intelligence services classified the d as a potentially extreme is policy since 2021. bought tech building at you know, mosque is a very cool supposed to be interviewed vide loan live stream on his x social media platform on thursday. i think only after you can save germany, and i just want to be very clear about that. only if the can save germany and a story and people really need to get behind their feet. and otherwise things are going to get very, very much worse and driven. germany's all the policies of who's out working with

the, the bosses. suppose this has been void by recent events in australia where the far right freedom policy has been invited to try to form a government of this lead spain's prime minister to on last week. the fascism could return to your victoria gates and b i which is 0 for inside story. the. well that's bringing, i guess now that all in but in today all us but now is the direct set and senior advisor of the alliance of democracies foundation. jessica ballot and as a non resident fellow at the center for european policy analysis and the old with fucking that is a professor of european studies at stanford university in berlin. if i will welcome to all of you. so we learn. musk has said that the a f d is the only policy that can save germany. there was a lot to impact in that statement on indeed been the person who made it, but i want to start 1st of all by hearing you make it that what you'll fest

response was when you 1st heard that. so jessica, let's start with you as well. first and foremost, what struck me is a lot most clear ignorance of german politics, history and our political system with a sort of tried statements like only the f d can save germany. it begs the question, saved germany from what's precisely his subsequent interview with the a, the liter alice vital was full of blades sense, uh, false hoods and miss characterizations of german history, including notoriously the description of others, hitler as a communist. these kinds of statements from us could don't really have the kind of sway in germany that they do and perhaps in the us where he's better known as a personality in politics. however, it is nonetheless extremely of course, disturbing the influential because of his ability to control the algorithms of x and thereby push the accounts of a,

of the members and supporters. and likewise to press the accounts of others who don't support the policy positions he's trying to promote. and so there is real concern in germany right now about this threat to threes or of, to our democratic system that this poses. and in response to actually several dozen universities and academic institutions the day after that interview quit x and the german government is current considering also leaving the platform some day perhaps . yeah, so it's have quite an impact on what was your reaction to it as well. i'm watching the elections in the election to ferry and since 2016. so the, the us elections when we 1st choose the russian side of intervening. and with most actually we see an unprecedented example how it works out. if the one man actually with the power of a platform like x actually can buy his own mind, actually interfere in not just germany. so we're seeing and power little isn't

dimensions. and the u. k. we have observed how he has intervene and brazil, accusing the judiciary here of having the and criticize on the government. so it falls into a kind of a global pattern. and in a way, actually, so as jessica just said, i see, so he's ignoring the fact checking he's ignoring all kind of works against this information on the online platforms and the interview and his space on x with at least vital to just prove that. so he was giving her the stage for sharing really incredible false information about germany and even the he was the one question in her statement. so he is legit a legitimizing a radical party each year as he has also done with u. k reform and also nigel for us, and i am afraid or actually so my guess is that this will not be the only interventions . and the question is really, is he still a business leader or to ortiz himself?

actually in the actually a political, the extra or a whole to, to send to you agree with both of those analysis of the situation right now. and how concerning it on marks involvement in germany's political scene is, i mean, i agree with the analysis, but i think we shouldn't take this performance as what we usually do when we look at talk show as in which the general motivation is to find the truth or to convince the other side that my final argumentation was superior, where he works. we now have a long history of populist communication strategies, and this one is not about the quality of what has been said. this is a performance in the framework. often attention to call them here in which it doesn't matter whether you use 2nd lies or false information or absurdities because it pays him the fact that the days after this, we say to you and discuss whether it makes sense to call the people or communist or

whether something is an empirical fact or maybe history or something very different . this is not the point. the point is that both are partners in arms to fight the liberal system, the germany that we know and that this course culture that's free breakfast and they almost as of disruption as to call it in line in terms buying. so it is a useful idiots for someone who benefits from k o, as in germany. as far as the point as well is how much impact alrick it actually has and how much more support the the policy will now have because of 8 on marks as well. when you started to present the stage to call it an important play in the political put in the political system, they were around 10 percent. now with the help of the on to like the government and

the just ended, they are currently up to 20 percent, which still means that 80 percent of germany has a very different opinion about what the country. so be like in what direction we are heading. so 200000 people have watched this on x and we sit here and talk about it. so they just, they are in the news of that piece in, but even support us all eyes on the tv for dodge time. we're making fun of this rather trivial conversation that politically, it doesn't really provide substance and answers to the pricing problems of the country. so i don't expect things like this to be all a major pain. change that in the elections. but of course it is very concerning, not only that there is a party like content, even an option, but the richest man in the world gives a party like this for the war that can be used to dismantle the institutions to

this is brad fake news to do with everything that we have seen in other countries, in which part is of that the cali about turns into one important act to in the last 3 are we on the edge of having one of them will be coming the next chance of a jessica, you also question save germany from watts not i think is quite puzzlement because 2 of the biggest issues in this election will this not election coming up? is migration immigration and the economy. and the sd is, is campaigning on one of the biggest platforms to we, my great people in germany. can you give us an idea of what that means and how is resonating with people that of this notion of re migration as the a if the or dubbing its out was cleaned by a right wing nationalist, austria and political figures in fact. and it's the idea of basically taking

out all the legal and illegal immigrants in a given country based on their quote unquote refusal to integrate um or if they've committed any crimes. and the important thing here to note that's different from generally calls to, to send back a legal immigrants is that it's also applying to people who are here legally. and each in the eye of these cases, they have talked about even trying to kick out actual german citizens who have somehow an international heritage. if they break the law. so it's, it's a really, uh, and a very likely illegal policy proposition that many are also calling quite frankly, um, uh for our rights um and a nazi like policy um, of ethnic cleansing or ethnic restructuring of society. however, it's very important to note here that all of the

a of these proclamations like this or in particular um statements from some like you on musk, they are nowhere near as helpful to the f d. as the failures of the past, governments of the traffic light coalition and the grant coalition that preceded it to bring every day germans quality of life forward. and also to really deal with the challenges that did occur in german society due to the refugee crisis. so the country certainly faces real challenges and the failure of the traditional centrist parties, whether center left, right, to deliver on change and bring the country forward. um are ultimately the things that are pushing the a if the more than any interview with you, one must could. yeah, that's really interesting. all of the to send you agree with that? i mean, obviously the aft is taking the extreme view on this issue of migration on perhaps the economy and energy as well. but to what extent is it on the table?

because of jessica said the fame is of the current coalition, government and pos, coalition governments. and also to some extent, the media putting these messages, these anti immigrant messages of germany in the doldrums economic, the messages on people's in front of people's faces. he didn't bring it on in the mainstream media. yeah, so so it's, so for me this is a global cutter and so we're not so we can discuss this for germany, but it's only said that so we have the very similar situation in discussion right now in australia. we have the same and friends, and if you look into the talking points of these parties, it is every time the same playbook. so this is exactly the media driven. the attention of the attention driven media are actually system we're living in the ages. so everyone's jumping on these trains and the longer we start this conversation, so people think ok, this is a legitimate argument the day and makes and this is what, what mosque is helping with. and then they. and so what do they show?

cited lenny and actually, and the question even is maybe even most is the useful idiot in this game. so i have read it a very interesting interview with steve bannon in bloomberg this week in which he said, okay, most can repeat what he has done in the us is everywhere in the world. he has the money, he has the means with x x. the demonstrated how to, how he can run a public discourse just by this. so he's, he created this by inviting, viable and gave her the platform. and immediately everyone is jumping on this train and discussing what they have, what they have talked about, even if it's a. yeah, meaning less because it is not really i don't believe at all that this is really the, the conversations people are concerned about. so we have a huge issue with the economy right now in germany, you have an issue with infrastructure and the other day again, as well as prompted before actually is selling this good old days. we bring you back the good old days narrative,

which is of course comfortable for the constituency to believe in. but it's also very easy because you can blame every time someone else. now it's the migraines. we have seen it with whoever actually the jews in the past. so this is also what jessica refer to. so he's completely ignoring the historical context is in germany, and he's just falling into that truck. the question is if he has a broader agenda here, so i can also see a business, a gender behind his actions because he's always in this very libertarian view, actually he's going after those who try to keep the democratic discourse intact. so he's against regulation. he's a games fact checking and we have seen bunker burg following the same lines because he saw, afraid actually that facebook and mentor actually would be the next, which will be killed by trump. so he's, he's kind of surrendering in this. kim and this is a global trend, we can see everywhere. and this is the what, what's really concerning to me. so,

all right, can you agree with that? i mean, why was moscow? why is most so interested in boosting the f d? is it because it reflects, is libertarian values? is it because he's got his tesla ponton, germany i'm going to get out of it. but i think a lot of party members and supporters of updates were not even know what to go with, terry, and is, but the new school in the sense that they are interested in the same distance towards the functioning institutions that are an essential part of a west and talk democracy because business about checks and balances. and we have seen that pop to least paid media because they're looking for the tools paid academia. gus, they're looking for the tools that they dislike institutions because they made that room for my hoover and the european union as one level of government is that helps to fix problems that the nation state is no longer capable to address. they came up

with a restriction for a global business. people like, well one of her stuff platforms with the digital service act to fight for the values and principles that made the western talk. democracies work so you know, must, is attacking not only germany. he's attacking the european union for the ability to bad, a page page and everything that is part of the thing that this course at the political culture in our open societies and the identity with adults fund. and you don't last have to say in trends. i've also seen you the connection between stefan it in trauma one and the law must. and trump, to the main difference is that mosque has far more fire power and a retentive germany and a dismantled situational system is in both interest because they benefit from po,

sent disruption. jessica here if it's is going to be concerned about the blazing influence of moscow, the interference of the in on mosque in its particular countries. and it's about because either but of course, the exception of easily and hungry also as a, as i said, you had mess up, getting rid of fat checking that's going to become more and more of an issue. there is a digital services act available to your but how might it use it to keep these social media companies in check to start subbing from giving an almost political advantage to whomever they choose to support of the use certainly has the opportunity to regulate these platforms. more strictly and to find them or even banned them from operating in the you out, right? if they refuse to meet certain standards of content, moderation, and uh,

editing of this information and blocking illegal contents. however, as with anything in the, you know, these discussions will take time and there is certainly no consensus within the block and how to deal with this. because as you mentioned, there are even members who are sympathetic to the right wing voices that are being amplified into the hate filled contents. and that is being allowed to to, to spread in these spaces. i wanted to also have a touch back on, on the previous points around the global they mention of the rise of b t and e. one must support for them. we have to remember that this is all taking place within the context of a global hybrid war. being led by russia, china, iran, and north korea against the west and democratic states. this has been ongoing for years and has certainly been only increasing in the last 5 years going after

our infrastructure, sabotage hacking attacks and of course election interference. and the spreading of this information. so these attacks from, without on free and fair elections on the democratic process sees or happening at the same time that also these actors in particular rush and china are actually supporting and to bring money into parties and platforms that also are helping to destabilize democratic processes. within so we have to see this as part of a global trend of an attack on democratic institutions and states from actors both within and without those democracies who want to see the system full. so jessica, all those institutions strong enough to withstand that. well, that is the question of the century. at this current time, i think it will get worse before it gets better. uh, people working in these institutions are still people and they're still,

i think in the spaces and denial phase. they smell the smoke, but they don't see the fire right in front of them yet. and i fear that it'll take uh of the it will take things to get worse before we see the kind of urgent action needed onto protects our institution. some are fully, all of us bring it back to jeremy and who to get on the the rise of the right the f day. i mean already has 76 seats and a bunch of stuff that some 10 percent of the parliament is it likely is get more in the selection and that's for sure. there is they will get more. but the, so the question is we have free regional elections in the end of 2020 for an east germany. so which gave us a good indication of what might come up in, in the summer elections for sure in for yourself. now with the next one, so i my, my assessment at the moment is we will see a solid government and built by at the moment it looks like by seed you for the

match, the fund runner with either the s p d, all the greens or maybe if the results are not as positive with the 2 of them. so and again another 3 party coalition and the of the, it will be by far, the stronger is opposition party. they have already being the strongest opposition of a strong opposition. now right after the see to you is cd you and the others and up in a government coalition and then the id is most likely the, the biggest opposition now with a lot of privileges in the german political system, which gives them again more stage time to spread their messages and, and insurance, the political culture and germany. so therefore i don't see any options for the state to enter government and this time. but a coalition building will be way more complicated under the circumstances right now . and orrick in this position of a powerful position, how much pressure can the,

the put on the governing coalition to bend to it's well given that it's going to have quite a lot of support from the german population as well. the support and the german population shouldn't be overestimated. and if we see that there is something like the petaluma spring into the right, we should also keep in mind that dependent on it has been swinging to the left for a very long time. the germany of today is no longer what germany was in the 2 thousands where the ninety's weren't even before. one of the reasons why, why the dislike miracle to enter politics so much is the fact that americans move the conservative party to the center. because in germany, you, when elections in the center and the establishment parties that represent a vast majority and of which the next to coordination will become cost, excuse me, in and $1.00 to $3.00 part of the core addition. this expresses the chart and it

became much more to our list and start verse and opened to a lot of influenza. is that it has a lot to do with the fact that you're on the bus for a long time and attractive countries that detected cost. my opponent tends because of its reputation as a customer part attempt society. so it's dependent on those springs back to a more conservative or a more yet driven attitudes towards migration or climate change. it is not a complete roller back, it is concerning, but it is still a different country that it was in its history. jessica, you said before that it was the family is of the current and the previous governments that led to the rise of the aft in germany. do things with unlikely. conservative coalition coming into power following their selection. if pulls out to be believed that they will succeed and, and drowning out the f, the voices that it has its day that this will be the end of it. i consider that

unlikely. thus far, the cd you, the conservative party, has shown that they are very ready to reach out to a if the voters by sort of dog whistling with a as in a phobic rhetoric if you will. and this is certainly an intellectual tactic. they want to wind votes, but it's, it's damaging in the long term because it shows that rather than really going at the substance of what it will take to bring germany forwards to improve quality of life, the economy, public services education across the board. we have serious problems here and systems and decline. and instead of articulating to the german people really seriously that they understand where these problems came from during the macro era . and under of this past governments. now they've understood and we have real clear

vision and strategy of how to make change and improve germany and german people's lives. instead of their look toral tactic is to try to lurch more to the rights in their rhetoric, in the hope of getting more voters. so i think this is not a promising start, in my opinion. i think a coalition between the conservative cd you and a central lift green party would be the best way to bring germany forward because it's a coalition that has not existed yet in german history. so no one can just point to peters out as like a grand coalition repeats, which for a lot of people in this country would seem like back to business as usual, the same coalition that got us into this mess is now back in power. and i think that would only fan the fires of the 50 me by interesting a few weeks ahead for germany. many things today to all guess, all of buckner, jessica button and orac brooklyn. and thank you to for watching because of the program again. any time by visiting our website that's out there, adult calm,

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