a standing in human rights defensive about the whole young generation. they have centered to palestine as part of their identity as such a innovation that twice the defense world. refrain on a jersey to the push to live sanctions on syria is gaining momentum. the new administration is engaged, so the major diplomatic outreach until pure pm, our diplomats have discussed the issue in re add. so will the west be prepared to lift the restrictions on how we build the syria? this is inside story, the hello welcome to the program. i mean, the bulk of the united nation says 7 out of 10 syrians require humanitarian assistance up to 13 years of civil war. and a huge $500000000000.00 is estimated to be needed to rebuild the country. seriously,

with ministration has engaged in a flurry of diplomatic, i took it to you in the past 2 weeks to convince the international community to wrap the live sanctions imposed during the rule of michelle a sub. and on sunday, european, an hour before ministers met in riyadh to discuss the country's future. but there are obstacles to overcome. while western powers have begun rolling out some aid, they want to see progress towards inclusive and democratic governance. concerns a growing the euphoria following the full of aside may give way to frustration and violence if the process is delayed. well, the west be prepared to lift sanctions and fast and can serious new rulers make the change is needed to win the confidence of will power as we'll discuss these issues with our expos and just environments time. but 1st, this report by victoria gates and moving a decade of fighting, has ravaged cities and towns across syria, the international sanctions as the degraded its infrastructure and starved it of

investment. the major international help from foreign powers is needed to rebuild the broken country during torques and the saudi capital. re add, the new syrian administration calls the sanctions to be listed. a message echoed by saudi arabia. i stress the importance of lifting unilateral and international sanctions imposed in syria as their continuation. he enters the aspirations of the syrian people to achieve development and reconstruction. the us and the european union impose sanctions on syria after the regime of special or less that correct down on and t government protest is in 2011. the sanctions have made it difficult for syria to import export basic goods, forcing up prices or the you said it will convene a meeting later this month in brussels to discuss whether to lift them

gemini, the biggest economy says it won't. some of the sanctions to remain in place sanctions against our stock henchmen who committed serious crimes during the civil war must remain in place. but germany proposes to take a smart approach to sanctions providing repeats really for the syrian population. missing from the meeting and re add what ran and russia space, storage allies, it'd be ousted aside government who helped it bypass sanctions by providing vital supplies. but serious political landscape has changed dramatically and this will move in a month. those who suffered a weak economy and crippling sanctions for use say they're ready to rebuild their lives and the countries infrastructure. there's

a huge task ahead and serious new leadership will need to win the confidence and support of the international community to make it happen. victoria gave some b l, g 0 for the inside story. the. okay, let's bring in all of i guess in damascus. i'm a cough is the executive director of the on run center for strategic studies and focuses on economic development and local government. i think as he ends up in a couple labs is a professor on conflict resolution, george mason university. she's will say before me, the deputy head of the you. and so we negotiation commission and took part in all the jenny of a peace talks on syria and it won't pay upfront for these are you is the executive director of local development and small projects support a sicilian and you're working on supporting accountable governance in syria very well, welcome to all 3 of you. welcome to inside story. i wonder if i can start with you . of course the u. s. u and some of nations began imposing sanctions on syria after

science, brutal kind of cracked down on opposition. back in 2011. of course, we all know that spiraled into a long and bloody comforts, but there are also sanctions on the group, good ousted aside as well. hi, i've talked to you, i was sham. hasty s. as we know them because of the groups pos, links to al qaeda. when we took over listing sanctions, what specifically are we talking about? well, i think sense of some of the sanctions that have been imposed on the state of syria since the seventy's. and then the accountability acts in 2005 and then following the uprising in 2011, the 3rd wave of sanctions. i think we talk about a lot of the sections that are 6 oral sections that are imposed on the people mainly on sectors such as technology, laptops, software, applications, and so forth that have hinder the resilience of the serial population. i think

those are the sanctions that have labeled syria's states as a states of cetera, as one that is comp complicit in the assassination of president of the country and so forth. i think a lot of those sections needs to be lifted immediately, re with no strings attached. oral sanctions hinder the recovery of the average individual. we're talking about technology on electric grids, especially on electricity. this should not be limited to 6 months or should not be attached to any conditions. sanctions that are imposed on specifically a h d. s. those might need some, a process or mechanism that insures their complete this association from their past . but i think we need to the sub differentiate between sections that impacts serious economic recovery. you want to allow syria is they asked for to invest in syria, to come back and,

and invest in the production sector. i visited many of the manufacturing plants that are suffering from an inability to fix machines due to the sanctions imposed on the spare parts. we talk about the airports, transportation, telecommunication, those are, are very essential sectors for syria to, to recover if you want more participation and you want serious population to rise up and to be included. they 1st need to be empowered and so empowering people with jobs, with production, with the ability to access the outside world. i think this goes to the bit to the grassroots of the serious population to be able to participate and to push for their role in the future. now, other types of sections on individuals, actually those we need to be tightened. they need to be held accountable, regardless of which country they, they run into. but, but, and then the 3rd sections are of course automated. yes. those require a mechanism to uh, to proceed forward. okay. uh many things for laying the groundwork out for us

turning to you and i mean saudi arabia and others. of course the judge and lifting of sanctions have been there. i mean, so these 4 minutes to print spies will been fine. said quotes, continuing them will hinder the aspirations of the brotherly serial people to achieve development to reconstruction. emma is just the underlined, a lot of those points in your serial and you've been able to visit syria for the 1st time and in many years, how much of an obstacle do you see existing sanctions when it comes to the rebuilding of this new syria, the best thank you for the for ending for deputations i just returned back from damascus. the most important things now to lease the section because it's very closer to support the shooting people during this transition. this time it's very important for them because this time because obviously it's very challenging. and the secret people are struggling to meet the basics daily means that it's not the

sort of course left the country. you launch a backup. so the people, there is no electricity. there is no saturdays, but he said you when he did he an age when they knew that you money didn't. if there is a need for everything. so lifting the sanctions could send also a positive message and i just wanted, thanks for the come to watch both things this because it this sending a message for this year, people who have experience hardship in the recent years that they are not in this trip. and so additionally we have, i'd be like, i thought i'd best buy the one, but the bank see days ago that is a big line of people who are trying to get their environment saturday. and there is no money to the bank. so we need to take care of the people, the electricity, one hours a day. it is very hard for the shooting people. so this actually would also allows

the company to, to bed and distribution the electricity more effectively for the benefit of the city. people here will kink, and we want to water for the seated people, the order priori to the priority number one, right? and we need to pause the most important things. we want that if we have nothing to, to do community we every single person i made in that it pg or the id because they have one whole. they want to go back to their full. i've been driving the suburb of damascus. don't every way of doing that or destroyed, how do they distribute cheese and i do because of a you can go back to that home. so if you have any more questions, questions him questions and hopefully we'll cover over the course of this discussion. but turning to to you friday, we've heard, obviously from amman, hidden the both explaining it and passionate to urgency. why the sanctions need to be lifted in their views. why then all these obstacles still the full funds of the

minds, all politicians in europe at the united states? what is the biggest stumbling block so far when it comes to simply lifting the sanctions immediately? well i'm, i think i'm the pretext for mentioning of the sections is that they want to see and things happening on the ground before they decide on lifting the sanctions. and i do agree with the law that we should not mix all the types of sections and one fault the sections that need to be listed. but it isn't to be honest actions on the scene, state industry and institutions. because these are required for the country to be able to survive for the, for the coming period. we are going to go into a very tough transition period. and it requires that participation, that everyone, but nobody wouldn't be bought dissipating if they are struggling just to, to, to survive. so if we really, since see, are these companies are sincere, on helping being a, uh, the, the, the transition going forward in

a democratic way. they have to be enabled. there's another obstacles to this transition. currently, sanctions against the city and state and the 3 and institution are obstacles to do this kind of transition besides, right, the design of the site was just the assistant political objective. that's where the related to the i'm going routine. now the union has, has changed. so there is no i would say even legally. okay. basis. understood, so the, so the, so the objective just to repeat body said the, the objective, the original objective of the sanctions is now obsolete. now that the, the playing field has essentially been completely changed. or were you written turning to you, i'm a body raised an interesting point to presumably, as i understand, the germans have requested sanctions on a side himself. and those who committed suicide crimes under the old regime would indeed remain. if that is the case, i mean, how easy is it to, to separate these functions to on couple of them from each other. i mean,

how complex the process would that be? i'm a, i mean, it is a complex process. however, if, if you start from the human centric approach, then then you'll be able to dissect through it and differentiate sanctions on the outside regime. i remain, but the state is different. now the acid regime is cause is gone uh is as, as flooded way. and so it is unfair to continue and, you know, imposing those sanctions on a new regime that's nothing to do with the servers. you know, i mean, especially functions. i mean, look at the, i visited a child's birth, the hospital most uh, hospital and others. they have no m r, i machines, they are specifically listed on sections as being used by the supreme to in the past as, as a place to torture people. and so, but this is a new era and sold. hospitals need to have a specific exemption, not limited,

not attached to political strings, those those sectors, the health sector, the education sector. i also visited damascus university. it is so sad to see a great university such as damascus university struggling to provide heating to uh to its uh, exam halls, or uh, medical equipment for its a students. the ability to, to study as many of the doctors of i've been, uh, now in germany, in the us and many european countries, sweden and so forth, are one of the brightest doctors in those countries. and yet they come back and they want to give those same syrian doctors want to give back to syria. but then there are the obstacles. are those sanctions imposed on medical equipment? and sometimes not only the equipment, it could be exempt, but then the software and the maintenance and, and the electricity that supports to it. you know it's, it's all links to each other. and so when we, when we start from

a human subject approach, another problem of course, is the over compliance of sections. and that's why we need the full exemption for all of those uh, essential services, electricity, health, education and the food livelihood. and then to allow syrians into that aspect to invest in producing sector series wasn't producing the economy was a self sufficient. and i think there's a great chance without international supports. syrians can rebuild their culture, understood, understood, um, uh well, let's talk about the human centric approach. and international support because we know, of course the, the summit and re add that useful in policy and security chief car costs was that, that being some positive sounds coming from europe. the italians are the most recent to say that they should be an immediate moratorium on sanctions. on friday, on january the 27th e u foreign ministers will meet to decide what to do next when it comes to

sanctions. they are somewhat, i'm strong by the process that so the demands which is the, has to be a complete consensus across the blog. do you anticipate any breakthrough in brussels funding? well, i surely hope so, especially the european sections of the sections are much more related. i mean, the obvious inspections that much more related to the uprising to the revolution and to the addition to the regime actually had back instead of evolution. now the regime is gone and the sections were sold, but actually designed to be in a way to, to help the interest investigations of the city and people. now they help the interest and the city and us. and so young people, the situation now towards removing these sections. so if they are truthful to what the vision of the sections was, then then they have to think about removing them. again, i'm talking about the sections related to the state and state and statements. institutions, all the people who are involved in uh, killing syrians or um,

and committing violations to human rights. these should be kept in my opinion, but the ones that are actually affecting the capability of the city is to survive for the time being taught. recovering and rebuilding, these should be listed immediately knowing also that they actually lifting sanctions. it's just not a button that you actually apply now. and then the following day, they are off the, the, the, the actually extraction of the section raising from the overall compliance of the roles, especially in the financial system is something that takes time. so the sooner we get to this business, but that would actually be for the se in the sooner we can get the effects of the sections of removing the sessions with not to move the effects on the such as before several months. and sometimes even several years. so we better start very early and in my opinion, not only removing senses,

now we have to move to incentivizing i, we have to reverse system. if we, these companies want to help the same people now in and then in the future and to transition towards the democratic and, and, and it goes, if country been, be, now, should not all on the move the sanctions. but stop thinking about incentive incentives, incentive, iving, meadows help actually thinking actually gone through effecting be understood. so the section that would take time to be taken out of assist. understood that has to be underlying incentive site and turning to you and the sanctions, but still currently placed upon h t. s. as an organization. the leaders have spoken of the need for quote tangible progress in a political transition. the reflect syria in all its diversity. that is the view coming out of the european union. and i understand you are a city in christian. what does your bulk progress mean to you? as a minority, i'm city and 1st proud to be city of purse,

and i just want to hear make sure that that important or suited to helps us through the building and the listening. this section can also give the incentive for the government to have more inclusive government. the more inclusive government means that you have to have more ability to get by to everybody from studio for every week and religion grew, they need to be the diverse city. what i flicked the fabrics of the suited people. we are very diverse society and we have that a and do the do we need to be on every one to be part of the government. so we need to have the inclusive government and i think this lifting the sanctions and give it more to patient and give the, the, the incentive for the new government to, to be more than tuesday. we're supposed to have it in march. so we're going to work very hard and too much to push for this because we don't this,

we can not have sustainable material. we need to ask everyone at the been and the contribution to that piece of the country right? well, for you, if you are pretty much saying the same thing when it comes to a sense of urgency when it comes to lifting the sanctions, however, that doesn't appear to be the attitude of the united states and the data european union. they be prepared to be taking the time they want to see evidence they want to see proof of for all viewers. and i'll pull costs listeners. i mean, let's recap what we've seen so far in terms of the lifting of these measures, the u. s. e. some restrictions, the us treasury issued a general license for 6 months. the authorizes certain transactions, namely energy sales. if all is of course, the decision to drop the $10000000.00 bounty on the leader of h. c. s, i'm at sharah. i mean the americans appear. i ought to be advocating that very

gradual approach. if we're talking about months even potentially use, i mean, considering really wait that long. i'm a i, i don't think so. i mean, is there an american community that have been, have launched actually a campaign to uh, to and those types of sanctions that, that touch people's lives. so 13 sir and american organizations of launched a campaign to, to end those sections of launched also a lobbying efforts in dc. there is a conference in february in washington by a lot of sir and american organizations to, to call for a much faster approach to again differentiate between sanctions on individuals that committed human rights sanctions on the us and then sections on state institutions and public sector. as well as invited private investments. i mean it is vital for syrians to be able to empower as some of these and, and local producing sectors that create jobs and allow this country not to explode

. i mean, if there are no salaries for another month, things could escalate. there is a lot of issues in terms of the tensions community tensions and so forth that require an injection of funds by the international community. but also by syrian, they asked, present refugees to come back and invest interest recovery, right for, for the turn it to you. because there are also some local considerations, particularly from countries like germany, whether it has been a large number of suicide m. c because of refugees based that invited of course, by the former gentleman, chancellor angler, michael. but it has undoubtedly been linked to the rise of the far right because the election coming up at the end of february in germany, germany clearly wants to make sure that syria is a safe place for refugees to potentially would tend to. they also don't want to see german tax payers, money funding, and potentially questionable leadership,

provides ts, turns out to be something other than it apparently appears to be. i mean it's not as simple as just lifting sanctions right now. it's not a concern for syrians that these calculations are happening behind the scenes in so many countries it is actually uh and to be honest with you, um, we have some hot enough now to be uh, paying the price for and the politics of any other country so we, we, we, we, we, we want now to move forward. and there is a difference between the taxpayers, money of germany, which comes to the form of assistance and receptions. because this is not a german, that spare money. but we are asking for is the, our ally, the, the right, for example, for the city. and that's all in the ask for us to send money to their relatives. so actually they can help but easily. and we've been supporting, we actually, even before the photo, there is a team. everybody was talking about the over compliance. now there is an

opportunity not to talk about over compliance. i believe the source of the problem itself is that the actually resulted in over compliance. again, it's not a shake blowing, it's not something that actually would go and do whatever they you want. no, but we are asking for redesigning these sections, gaping the ones that's all related to the regime, keeping up rate to be designing the ones that are related to a d. s. removing everything that is related to syria, as a state was diffusion and be ready now, go to what sections they actually invented them and design them to respond to a political perspective. now that there is a new political objective that comes because there is no, i don't think it was different, etc. and then we can discuss putting sections back again. but now preemptively suppose that this is not going to go well and then we keep sections of that kind of stick. yeah,

i think is her thing so many people that i don't think it's the right approach. the right approach is to show signs of helping the people and be ready then to readjust if needed, but not fix the position on. probably a soft choice understood, right? it's the cm are suffering. so what do we have to say is, hey, you go and then if you prove not to be right, then we can take measures, right? okay, so the fuel months and years also the president has a party which of so we're just approaching me and we're just approaching the end of our discussion. i want to speak to, to it's a hidden to find if i can, because of what fatty has very clearly underlined in it. so that needs to be a certain degree of strategy when it comes to what functions potentially remain, what functions need to be lifted, the kind of punitive or restricted measures that may well need to be in place to ensure that there is trust built within the international community,

your final thoughts as we reach the end of this program. how should the international community approach this incredibly complex challenge? a very easy, we have a, we have the going and we need to serve the city and keeping it does remove all of the sanction on the states and the government and, and the institution so that people can live to see that because they've been put in dignity, we want that encourage you to come back. we need them to have a, the holes, and we need to have for them the proper like, it does not. it is an app to infinity that can hip civilizing that god. i mean, i think that is the shooting people are the better. so it's very easy. that is you sanction was state. and then the move on the as the section of the solution because we want to or people to live in integrity. find the after all those use of started and then we need to think about also everybody is going to invest government to get

in on the one. once they're trying that base, we need to be the chest to show that they're doing a good job. because in the end of the day, we want our see the shooting people to do it better than what they did in the last 15. all right, hands buddies, thanks your final thoughts that as you said, perhaps 0 needs right now is a lots of international empathy or yours the and many thanks for that. i have a couple ups for the day you, but i'm a cough, a pleasure to have all 3 of you on inside story and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, which is there a dot com for further discussion. go to a facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on x. a handle is as a inside story for many bach with the whole team here. bye. for now. the

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