of the 1970s in the middle east. in the 1st but to find out if they were well chopped. some of the decades hibbits in the back to 73 arab is really nice to meet you at a point in the seventy's in the politics the 1st the website sions on syria is gaining momentum. the new administration is engaged with the major diplomatic outreach until 4 pm, our diplomats have discussed the issue in re add. so will the west be prepared to lift the restrictions on how we build the syria? this is inside story, the

hello welcome to the program and the bulk of the united nation says 7 out of 10. syrians require humanitarian assistance up to 13 years of civil war. and a huge $500000000000.00 is estimated to be needed to rebuild the country. seriously, with ministration has engaged in a flurry of diplomatic activity in the past 2 weeks to convince the international community to wrap the live sanctions imposed during the rule of michelle aside. and on sunday, european, an hour before ministers met in riyadh to discuss the country's future. but there are obstacles to overcome. while western powers have begun rolling out some aid, they want to see progress towards inclusive and democratic governance. concerns a growing the euphoria following the full of aside may give way to frustration and violence if the process is delayed. well, the west be prepared to lift the sanctions and fast and can serious new rulers make the change is needed to win the confidence of well powers. we'll discuss these issues with our expos and just environments time. but 1st, the simple by victoria guides and a move in

a decade of fighting has ravaged cities and towns across syria international sanctions. as the degraded its infrastructure and starved it of investment. the thought of major international help from foreign powers is needed to rebuild the broken country during torques and the saudi capital. re add the new theory and administration calls the sections to be listed. a message echoed by saudi arabia. i stress the importance of lifting unilateral any to a national sanctions imposed in syria as their continuation hinders the aspirations of the syrian people to achieve development and reconstruction. the u. s. and the european union impose sanctions on syria after the regime, especially our last that's correct. down on anti government protest is in 2011. the sections of made it difficult for syria to import export basic goods, forcing up prices of the you said it will convene

a meeting later this month in brussels to discuss whether to lift them gemini, the biggest economy says it won't. some of the sanctions to remain in place sanctions against our stock henchmen who committed serious crimes during the civil war must remain in place that germany proposes to take a smart approach to sanctions providing repeats really for the syrian population missing from the meeting and re add what ran and russia based storage allies, it'd be ousted asset government who helped it bypass sanctions by providing vital supplies. but serious political landscape has changed dramatically and this will

move in a month. those who suffered a weak economy and crippling sentients for use say they're ready to rebuild the lights and the countries infrastructure. there's a huge task ahead and serious new leadership will need to win the confidence and support of the international community to make it happen. victoria gave some b, l, g 0 for inside story. the. okay, let's bring in all of our guests in damascus. i'm a cough, is the executive director of the own run center for strategic studies and focuses on economic development and local government. i think as he ends up in a couple labs is a professor on conflict resolution, george mason university. she's also performing the deputy head of the you and so be negotiation commission and took part in all the jenny of a piece, talks on syria and did mom pay upfront for these are you is the executive director of local development and small projects support as the syrian and you are working

on supporting accountable governance in syria. very well welcome to all 3 of you. welcome to inside story. i wonder if i can start with you. of course the u. s. u and some of nations began imposing sanctions on syria after science, brutal kinda cracked down on opposition. back in 2011. of course we all know that spiraled into a long and bloody conflict, but there are also sanctions on the group that ousted aside as well. hi, i told you i was sham. hasty s. as we know them because of the groups pos, links to al qaeda. when we took over lifting sanctions, what specifically are we talking about? well i think sense is some of the sanctions that have been imposed on the state of syria since the seventy's and then the accountability acts in 2005. and then following the uprising in 2011, the 3rd wave of sanctions, i think we talk about a lot of the sections that are 6 oral sections that are imposed on the people mainly on sectors such as technology, laptop, software, applications,

and so forth that have hinder the resilience of the syrian population. i think those are the sanctions that have labeled serious states as a states of feder, as one that is comp complicit in the assassination of president of the country and so forth. i think a lot of those sections needs to be lifted immediately, re with no strings attached. sex oral sanctions hinder the recovery of the average individual. we're talking about technology on electric grids, especially on electricity. this should not be limited to 6 months or should not be attached to any conditions. sanctions that are imposed on specifically a h d s. those might need some a process mechanism that ensures their complete this association from their past. but i think we need to this of differentiate those between sanctions that impact uh,

serious economic recovery you want to allow, syria is a they ask for to invest in syria to come back and, and invest in the production sector. i visited many of the manufacturing plants that are suffering from an inability to fix machines due to the sanctions imposed on the spare parts. you talk about the airports, transportation, telecommunication, those are, are very essential sectors for syria to, to recover if you want more participation and you want serious population to rise up and to be included. they 1st need to be empowered and so empowering people with jobs, with production, with the ability to access the outside world. i think this goes to the bit to the grassroots of the serious population to be able to participate and, and to push for their role in the future. now, other types of sections on individuals actually those, we need to be tightened. they need to be held accountable,

regardless of which country they, they run into. but, but, and then the 3rd sections are of course, on each the, those require a mechanism to uh, to proceed forward. okay. um, um, anything. so for laying the groundwork out for us turning to you end up being saudi arabia and others. of course, these urgent lifting of sanctions, having that i mean, so these 4 minutes to print spies will been fine said quotes. continuing them will hinder the aspirations of the brotherly syrian people to achieve development to reconstruction. ma is just the, on the line to load up those points in your serial and you've been able to visit syria for the 1st time and in many years, how much of an obstacle do you see existing functions when it comes to the rebuilding of this new syria there, thank you for the for ending for the dictations i just returned back from damascus . the most important thinks now to this the section because it's very close to support this should have been during this transition,

this time. it's very important for them. because this time, because obviously it's very challenging and the secret people are struggling to meet the basics they needs. that is not a set of course, left the country. you launch a backup. so the people, there is no electricity. there is no salaries, but he said you, when he did he an age when they knew that humanitarian aid there is a need for everything. so lifting the sanctions, consent also a positive message. and i just want to, thanks was the country was supporting this because it, this sending a message for this year people will have experience hardship in the recent years that they are not alone in this trip. and so additionally we have, i'd be like i but i best buy the one, but the bank see days ago that is a big line of people who are trying to get their environment saturday. and there is no money to the bank. so we need to take care of the people that interest 51 hours

a day. it is very hard for the seated people. so this action would also allow company to, to bed and distribution the electricity more effectively for the benefit of the city. people here. well, king and we want to water for the shooting people, the order priori to all of their priority number one, right? and we have also the most important things we want that if we have nothing to, to do community, we, every single person i made in that it could you or the, i do think that they have one who they want to go back to their full. i've been driving the supper of damascus, don't every way of do my, how does that or destroyed? how do they distribute cheese and i do because it's a you can go back to that home. so if you have any more questions, questions him questions and hopefully we'll cover over the course of this discussion. but turning to to you friday we've heard, obviously from amman,

hidden the both explaining it and passionate to urgency. why the sanctions need to be lifted in their views? why then all these obstacles still the full funds of the minds, all politicians in europe to the united states. what is the biggest stumbling block so far when it comes to simply lifting the sanctions immediately? well i'm, i think i'm the great, thanks for mentioning of the sections is that they want to see and things happening on the ground before they decide on lifting the sanctions. and i do agree with the law that we should not mix all the types of sections and one fault the sections that need to be lifted. but it isn't the odd steps on the scene state industry and institutions. because these are required for the country to be able to survive for the for, i mean, period. we all have done a go into a very tough transition period. and it requires the participation that everyone, but nobody wouldn't be bought, dissipating if they are struggling just to, to,

to survive. so if we really, since see, are these companies are sincere, on helping being a, uh, the, the, the transition going forward in a democratic way. they have to be enabled. there's another obstacles to this transition. currently, sanctions against the city and state and the 3 and institution are obstacles to do this kind of transition. besides, right, the design of the site was just the assistant political objective. that's what they're related to the outgoing routine. now the reason has has changed. so there is no i would say even legally. okay, basis. understood, so the, so the, so the objective just to repeat body said the, the object to be original object 2 of the functions as now obsolete. now that the, the playing field has essentially been completely changed or were you written turning to you, i'm our body raised an interesting point to presumably, as i understand, the germans have requested sanctions on

a side himself. and those who committed serious crimes under the old regime would indeed remain if that is the case. i mean, how easy is it to, to separate these functions to on couple of them from each other? i mean, how complex the process would that be? i'm a, i mean, it is a complex process. however, if, if you start from the human centric approach, then then you'll be able to dissect through it and differentiate sections on the outside regime. i remain, but the state is different. now the acid regime is cause is gone uh is as, as flooded way. and so it is unfair to continue and, you know, imposing those sections on a new regime that's nothing to do with the servers. you know, i mean, especially sanctions. i mean, look at the i, i visited a child, the birth hospital most a hospital and others. they have no m r. i machines. they are specifically listed on sections as being used by the supreme to in the past as, as

a place to torture people. and so, but this is a new era and sol, hospitals need to have a specific exemption, not limited, not attached to political strings. those, those sectors, the health sector, the education sector, i also visited damascus university. it is so sad to see a great university such as damascus university struggling to provide heating to uh to its uh, exam halls, or uh, medical equipment for its students. the ability to, to study as many of the doctors of i've been, uh, now in germany, in the us and many european countries, sweden and so forth, are one of the brightest doctors in those countries. and yet they come back and they want to give those same syrian doctors want to give back to syria. but then there are the obstacles. are those sanctions imposed on medical equipment? and sometimes not only the equipment, it could be exempt,

but then the software and the maintenance and, and the electricity that supports to it. you know it's, it's all links to each other. and so when we, when we start from a human subject approach, another problem of course, is the over compliance of sections. and that's why we need the full exemption for all of those uh, essential services, electricity, health, education and the food livelihood. and then to allow syrians into that aspect to invest in producing sector series was a producing economy, was a self sufficient. and i think there's a great chance without international supports. syrians can rebuild their culture, understood, understood, um, uh well, let's talk about the human centric approach. and international support because we know, of course the, the summit and re add that useful in policy and security chief car costs was that, that being some positive sounds coming from europe. the italians are the most recent to say that they should be in immediate moratorium on sanctions. on friday,

on january the 27th e u. foreign ministers will meet to decide what to do next when it comes to sanctions. they are somewhat, i'm strong by the process that so the demands which is the, has to be a complete consensus across the blog. do you anticipate any breakthrough in brussels? funny well, i surely hope so. um, especially the european section do our best sanctions are much more related. i mean, the visa inspections that how much more related to, for the uprising to the revolution and to the addition to the regime actually had that game that they've been watching. now the regime is gone and the sessions were sold, but actually it designed to be in a way to, to help the interest and aspirations of the city and people. now they help the interest and city and us. and so young people that's variation now towards removing the sections. so if they are truthful to what the vision of the sections was,

then then they have to think about removing them. again, i'm talking about the sections related to the same state and students institutions . all the people that were involved in uh, killing syrians, or, and committing violations to human rights. these should be kept in my opinion, but the ones that are actually affecting the capability of the city is to survive for the time being taught, recovering and rebuilding. these should be listed immediately knowing also that the actually lifting sanctions is just not a button that you actually apply now. and then the following day, they are off the, the, the, the actually extraction of the section raising from the overall compliance of the whole, especially in the financial system is something that takes time. so the sooner we get to this best, the best that would actually be for the se in the sooner we get the effects of the sections of removing the sessions with not to move the effects on the sections

before several months and sometimes even several years. so we better start very early and in my opinion, not only removing senses, now we have to move to incentivizing i, we have to reverse system. if we, these companies want to help the same people now in and then the fusion to transition towards the democratic and, and it goes if country, then they now should, not all on the move the sanctions. but stop thinking about incentive incentives, incentive iving meadows. right help actually thinking actually gone through effecting be understood. so the section that would take time to be taken out of assist. understood that has to be underlying incentives and turning to you in the sanctions, but still currently placed upon h t s. as an organization. the leaders have spoken of the need for quote, tangible progress in a political transition, the reflect syria in all its diversity. that is the view coming out of the european

union, and i understand you are a city in christian. what does thompson zable progress mean to you? as a minority? i'm city 1st proud to be city of purse, and i just want to hear make sure that that important or suited to helps us through the building. and just think this section can also give the incentive for the government to have more inclusive government. they're more inclusive government means that you have to have more authority to give back to everybody prosciutto for every week. and religion grew, they need to be the diverse city what i flicked the fabrics of the suited people. we are very diverse society and we have the a and do the and we need to be all of our every one to be 5 to the government. so we need to have the inclusive government, and i think this lifting the sanctions and give it more to vision and give the,

the, the incentive for the new government to, to be more inclusive with it's supposed to have it in march. so we're going to work very hard and too much to push for this because we don't this, we can not have sustainable material. we need to ask everyone at the been and the contributing to that piece of the country right well for you. if you are pretty much saying the same thing when it comes to a sense of urgency when it comes to lifting the sanctions. however, that doesn't appear to be the attitude of the united states and indeed european union, they be prepared to be taking the time. they want to see evidence, they want to see proof for all viewers. and i'll put cost listeners. i mean, let's recap what we've seen so far in terms of the lifting of these measures, the u. s. e. some restrictions of the us treasury issued a general license for 6 months. the authorizes certain transactions, namely energy sales. if all is, of course,

the decision to drop the $10000000.00 bounty on the leader of h. c. i. so how much of sharah, i mean the americans appear. i ought to be advocating that very gradual approach. if we're talking about months, even potentially use, i mean, considering really wait that long. i'm a and i, i don't think so. i mean, is there an american community that have been, have launched actually attempting to, uh, to, and those types of sanctions that, that touch people's lives. so 13 sir and american organizations of launched a campaign to, to end those sections of launched also a lobbying efforts in dc. there is a conference in february in washington by a lot of sir in american organizations to, to call for a much faster approach to, again, to differentiate between sanctions on individuals that committed human rights sanctions on the us and then sections on state institutions and public sector as well as

invited private investments. i mean it is vital for syrians to be able to empower as some of these and, and local producing sectors that create jobs and allow this country not to explode . i mean, if there are no salaries for another month, things could escalate. there is a lot of issues in terms of the tensions community tensions and so forth that require an injection of funds by the international community. but also by syrian, they asked, present refugees to come back and invest interest recovery, right? so how do you turn it to you? because there are also some local considerations, particularly from countries like germany, whether it has been a large number of suicide m. c because of refugees based that invited of course, by the former gentleman, chancellor angler, michael. but it has undoubtedly been linked to the rise of the far right because the election coming up at the end of february in germany, germany clearly wants to make sure that syria is

a safe place for refugees to potentially would tend to. they also don't want to see german tax pay as money funding and potentially questionable leadership provides ts, turns out to be something other than it apparently appears to be. i mean it's not as simple as just lifting sanctions right now. it's not a concern for syrians that these calculations are happening behind the scenes in so many countries it is actually uh and to be honest with you, um, we've suffered enough now to be paying the price for and the politics of any other country. so we, we, we, we, we, we want to move forward, and there is a difference between the taxpayers, money of germany, which comes to the form of assistance and receptions. because this is not a german, that span of money. but we are asking for is the, our ally, the, the right, for example, for the city. and that's all in das for us to send money to their relatives. so

actually they can help easily and we've been supporting, we actually, even before the photo, there is a team. everybody was talking about the over compliance. now there is an opportunity not to talk about the compliance. i believe the source of the problem itself is that the actually resulted in over compliance. again, it's not a ship blowing, it's not something that actually would go and do whatever they you want. no, but we are asking for redesigning these sections, gaping the ones that's all related to the regime, keeping up rate to be designing the ones that are related to sds, removing everything that is related to syria, as a state was diffusion and be ready now go to what sections they actually invented them and designed them to respond to a political objective. now that there is a new political objective that comes because there is no, i don't think it was different, etc. and then we can discuss putting sections back again. but now preemptively the

suppose that this is not going to go well and then we keep sections of that kind of stick. yeah, i think is hurting so many people that i don't think it's the right approach. the right approach is to show signs of helping the people and being ready then to readjust if needed, but not fix the position on. probably a soft choice and stake, right? it's the cm are suffering. so what do we have to say is, hey, you go and then if you prove not to be right, then we can take measures, right? that's the, that's the fuel, the months and years off the repression of the party, which of so we're just approaching me and we're just approaching the end of our discussion. i want to speak to, to the hidden, to find the if i can, because of what fatty has like. clearly underlined here. and it's so that needs to be a certain degree of strategy when it comes to what functions potentially remain. what functions need to be lifted,

the kind of punitive or restricted measures that may well need to be in place to ensure that there is trusts, built within the international community. your final thoughts as we reach the end of this program. how should the international community approach this incredibly complex challenge? a very easy we have a, we have the going and we need to serve the city and keeping it. it does remove all of the sanction of the state and the government and, and the institution. so that people can live to see that because they've been put in dignity. we want you to come back, we need them to have a, the holes, and we need to have for them the proper like, it is not. it is an app to infinity that can hip civilizing that god. i mean i think god is the shooting people for the better. so it's very easy that is you sanction was state. and then the move on the as the section of the solution because

we want to or people to live in integrity. find the after all those use of stuck. and then we need to think about us. so everybody is going to invest government in on the one. once they're trying that base, we need to be the chest to show that they're doing a good job. because in the end of the day, we want to oversee the shooting people to do it better than what they did in the last 15. all right, hands bindings. thanks your final thoughts. that as you said, perhaps 0 needs right now is a lots of international empathy or yours the and many thanks for that. i have a couple ups for the, the you, but i'm a cough, a pleasure to have all 3 of you on inside story. and thank you to for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, which is there a dot com for further discussion. go to a facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on x. a handle is

as a inside story for many bach with the whole team here. bye for now, the after daring political come back and the decisive election. when donald trump is set to return to the white house, joined us for an in depth look at trunk policies, how they'll affect americans and the world. trump 2nd term analogy is here. again and it's designed to inflame and defense the way that this story is being told. not right, not accurate from social networks to legacy media. the listening post explosives, the post is behind the headlights pulled out. the child in town of audrey is dry on an unforgiving a boat done by the army in the palm military rapids. support forces had been

fighting for more than a yeah. had deja abraham has just arrived at this. come for refugees and the other pull down. there was a complex that so we had no choice but to come to chat, joined by hundreds of thousands out is all escaping a wall. that is not that making this cost for supposed to be temporary. now there are more than 200000 to then use if you do use the government is relocating then to another couple about a 100 kilometers from here. but you don't come, you know, conflict in dar for region has lasted for 20 years. and the current situation is done, positively ignited those tensions. how do you bring safe keeping hot children alive? was the hardest part of the journey. the

. there's no limit to how far a dream contains sta in your i own adventure. now. cattle and ways. the hello on side or side us in the hot and the 0 top stories on al jazeera of to 15 months of devastating more and more than 46000 palestinians killed. a long awaited si, fi appears to be on the horizon for israel's will. on garza, they have been days of discussions between cost to remediate. susanna senior is ready delegation. if a deal is agreed, it will be implemented in 3 stages and that's according to reports. a category foreign ministry said to her as optimistic about the on going to wilkes and his wife during the past month they were under like.