young children out of school in canister their religious police, also known as his, but carry out the lights rates on comp, box markets, and on the bridge is rounding up the children wide their sleep and bringing them to this account to watch the forest. they say these rehabilitation when we that is due to the we invite the next call us lead teachers with x and y. i us students to us. and we were called the parents. we will, you, are you night children with their parents. here they are given food on somewhere to sleep or twice active. a say it doesn't address the root of the problem development. i know taking care of them. do you have pen as to neglect them? different does, but then just leave them like that's what is the now one of them not become to the

presence of then julia, how will it take you over people do way? yes, i found it does. how do you, is, is going to pick you up of the, to please use leading. i should insist that all that the lack of education and broken families are the 2 carpets. and without addressing these issues, the cycle of neglect will continue until then, children here remain costs between the government, unable to provide solutions and a society that has turned its back on them. for now, the future is us on such as the next meal or the how should i just see it all? kindle nigeria, us president. donald trump is facing a legal challenge to one of his executive orders. a job just temporarily blocks the order to restrict the site citizenship a right to the shrines in the us constitution. the order refuses citizenship to

children and documented parents. the president trump is expected to visit areas hit by fires in california lights, a government. gavin newsome is pledge 2 and a half $1000000.00 to help find 12 fives and the state. 50000 people are facing evacuation orders. every wind rolls by storm i o in a battering parts of the united kingdom. red warning, so being issued for scotland in northern ireland, the stone broad saw the strongest winds ever recorded. now i went up to a 183 columbus is now set for this show. it's the stream next to the back of the top of the i'll stay with us the this is a region that is relatively develop thing, but it's one also that is afflicted by conflicts, flip flops, people,

some of those we talked to elsewhere saying that they sled update hearing that other villages had been attacked. what we do in all just sarah, is try to balance the stories, the good, the bad, the id, tell it as it was, and the people allow us into their lives, dignity ends. you mind if you ask me to tell this story, a true crime where grizzly mysteries are investigated in groups in detail has gone from a nice interest to a full blown obsession. but i want pointed to the story stump educating and stars exploiting. and these boards isn't, this is the stream. the thing is a red flag to walk you through the crime show before bad. i already told you because i get it, get it because i don't, don't make some crazy. the

this is the case of the sponge bob murder. in 1995, jason was born in a small town in louisiana. i fell asleep listening to a crime podcast. i am the girl. the name is about, it's me, a or well on the hunt for a good pod cast or series. you've probably come across a genre dominating popularity charts where real life murders, kidnappings and any other horrific event is examined and scrutinized the narrative as such than the audience feels like it's part of the investigation. examining each new piece of evidence and uncovering parts of the mystery. here's the question, the tough question we're going to be asking today, how's our mania about these stories blinded us, to the manager of the people at their center. i'm going to put that question to our

guests today, joining us to discuss our amanda vickery and associate professor of psychology and business, specializing in crime and the justice system. to renewal a survivor turned advocate, producer and life coach saline best olson, a producer and filmmaker focusing on true crime across film television in podcasts and bill thomas, the co host of the mind, over murder, podcast, and an advocate for victims. thank you all so much for your time. thank you for being part of the stream today. tara, i would like to start with you, because here on the stream, we often focus on personal stories and you had a terrific experience with infamous cereal. predatory john, me, hon. known to many of our viewers because of the pod cast and then the series dirty john. i know this may be difficult, but i was going to ask you to share with us that experience and also

a major choose to work with survivors to so when i got thrown into this space, it was a lot. but for those that don't know me, i'm tearing you all my step dad during the john me, he and came after me and i was able to defend him and a self defense. i took his life. and now i start working with survivors because it's really the next step in the healing journey for me is that post progression is helping others. and so it's really great to connect with other survivors. and that's a, an interesting aspect. and when i wasn't expecting your to say, but it's um, we're going to hear more about your journey and how you felt to have your life depicted in so many different ways. but bill, your podcast mind over murder is a very personal project for you. can you tell us more about it and about why you chose this platform to spotlight your sister's unsolved murder as well.

my pod cast partner kristin billy and i started my door for murder. 5 years ago. it came about because i had been guesting as the brother of a murder victim. my sister cathy thomas and her girlfriend rebecca bowsky, are the 1st to victims in the so called colonial parkway murders after guesting on a number of other true crime podcast. people suggested that i start a true buying podcast that would allow us to talk about the colonial parkway murders and many issues and true crime o. and it has become a very successful project as well. um, these true crime podcasts have really taken off in popularity in recent years. a pew research center study found that true crime is the most common podcast topic and 24 percent of the top rank podcast in the us are about to crime. one very

interesting aspect in terms of the audience, 73 percent of those podcast listeners are women. amanda, you've done an extensive research looking at why true crime as a genre is so popular, especially among women. what were your findings and why would you say people are so obsessed with true crime? a little to crime has so many different elements, right? that can, can appeal to 2 different people, right? there's the, the mystery solving element. there's the forensics, there's the emotional content. there's drama, there's psychology analysis, there's really, there's really something for everyone. and what i found about what appeals to women, so much specifically was basically anything related to surviving a crime or preventing being the victim of the crime. so women really liked the psychological contact. what's that, the killer, uh, what, what red flags can i look for, or how someone, you know, escape the kid napping or, you know, tears a great example this. how did she fight back and survive?

and women especially are really drawn to this. mm hm. indeed, it's become so successful that we've seen these series consistently appearing on top pick lists monster and the jeffrey dahmer story was released in 2022 and became the seconds most watched english language series of all time on netflix within one months, dramatizing many of the real events and sometimes it really accurate ways. take a look at this emotional moment from rita isabel, the sister on one of the victims. my name is the bell and i'm the mayor. land jam, whatever your name is, a see my, my down to go do this again.

my name is rita isabel, and i'm the old that whatever your name is, the one the best way for me that and so these depictions opened up the floor for discussions about consent, but also about the psychological tool on victims and their families. rita is bone. watch some of the show and some that she felt like she was really living everything over again. she actually said, and i quote, i was never contacted about the show. i feel like netflix should have asked if we mind or how we felt about making it. they didn't ask me anything, they just did it, but i am not money hungry. and that's what the show is about netflix trying to get

paid. i mean, i want to bring you in because you've produced a claim to true crime, documentary series for major networks. have you seen a push to look at the ethical concerns, the ethical implications involved in so essentially making entertainment out of what is often someone's worst moments ever? has the industry evolved at all in that respect? especially with this rise in popularity? i wish i could say that they have, but it has not. but you know, in terms of what i have worked on consent is very much at the top of the list of what a ethical production would be read at is spelled as a perfect example. she is somebody who so resilient and she offered this example of not being contacted, given this type of consent. we also just saw this again with the menendez brothers

documenting series, along with the ryan murphy scripted series. to my understanding, the scripted series did not offer any type of consent, really painted eric and lyle in a fashion that was not appropriate. according to eric, who released a statement through his wife, tammy menendez. so when we're looking at consent and ethical practices, this is something that i am really trying to pioneer in terms of production. thankfully, i have worked for wonderful production companies who take that consent very seriously. but i do think there is this ethical and morality, if you will, about the type of content that we are consuming when it is done by, you know, people who do not want this type of content out there about their lives. this is truly a dramatic moment for them. um, i mean,

i guess tara is well equipped to talk about the as we mentioned that the starting the, the from attic events you experience were turned into a hip podcast with over a 170000000 listeners. and a successful series on netflix. what does it like when your story such a difficult moment for you and your family goes viral like that? were you and your family involved in either of the productions and i was luckily it's be involved in my production as a consultant. however, i was told that they were going to make the series with or without me. oh yeah. and i found out earlier that they were actually selling the podcast. are you john? and so it was already plans and it was going to be a pod cast instead of a series of articles with the la times. and so it was really interesting that i didn't even know that my traumatic incident was being touched out there to be sold

. hm. yeah, that's a nice way of inviting you. we're going to do it anyway. if you want to participate . um no i was i was wondering if for you, this was part of i mean creating this podcast was also part of owning the narrative and, and bringing it back to your family a little bit to, to try and honor the story of your sister. it absolutely was something i admire about kara, is that she has a big gun to control the narrative. it's her story and she deserves to be the person that tells that she and i've met very briefly, but i didn't have an opportunity to convey that at the same time starting mind over murder is our attempt to get out correct information about my sister's case. and the talk about the colonial parkway murders,

but also talk about other issues in true crime. but it's certainly an attempt on our part to get the story straight to keep it. victims focused and quite frankly, to put pressure on the f. b, i and the virginia state police to put resources into an unsolved series of murders that involved at least 8 young people, only on of the 4 double homicides. and the colonial parkway murders has been solved and so far and, and i'm gonna, i'm gonna get you to, to give us an update on that. but i, i just wanna also bring in another aspect because there are many independent creators on youtube and take talk clar, approaching their content in a different way. we spoke to so base during the list turned youtube or megan lee about her process. take a look. i definitely try to be mindful of the ethical concerns when i'm choosing

cases and writing scripts. true crime is a fascinating john robot. at the end of the day, the stories are about real people, victims, their families and communities have gone through something truly tragic. so i always try to remind myself of that and try to approach everything with as much respect and sensitivity as possible. and because of my journalism background, i take a more factual and researched based approach to story telling. i focused on delivering accurate information without adding too much of my own imagination or speculation. i believe it's important to let the story speak for itself rather than traumatizing unnecessarily. i also feel a lot of attention to how cultural differences play a role in the cases i cover. since i focus on agents' stories, i think it's really important to explain things like cultural values, legal systems, and societal reactions. so people can get

a better understanding of what's happening without falling into stereotypes. i do believe that your crime can serve as a way to educate and create awareness about important social issues. i want people to learn something and walk away with a deeper understanding of the case, not just watch for entertainment. i think it's all about finding that balance between creating interesting content and making sure it's done the right way. a bill your take here on what megan just mentioned there in terms of true crime being more than just entertainment. you've been talking about how it's been almost 40 years and the case remains on souls to your sister's case. recently there's been some traction in identify a suspect. can you give us the latest update on the ass? but also if you think that the podcast has helped in any way to find some of the answers as well. i'm absolutely certain that the broadcast has helped because we

try to keep the media focus and that spotlight on the fact that the triple play video parkway murders are still largely unsolved. i can't tell you how many people i've met this case took place in virginia. people will say to me, oh, i thought that case was solved, or really even mentioned a suspect, and they'll say, oh, wasn't he the guy and people are not aware of the fact that these cases remain unsolved. there's $300000.00 unsolved homicides currently in the united states. in the cold case category. if you don't pick up a fuss, if you don't put pressure on on for spent to talk about what's going on. in these cases died, the, we have had a significant development. it's a year ago now that the f, b, i, the virginia state police announced

a partial solve in the colonial park by murders. but at the same time, they wouldn't admit publicly that there were links between that offender who died in 2017 and the other colonial parkway murders. it's only after the families and are podcast and other media people called out the fbi i in the virginia state police that they began to admit that, oh, well yes, the suspect also is linked to the other colonial parkway bartos. it shouldn't take the brother of a murder victim to keep the law enforcement informing the public. but that's what it's come down to. wow, but it is a fascinating aspect of, of the power i guess, right, that these podcasts actually hold amanda. there's been some extraordinary instances where a story that has been brought to enter the spotlight by a documentary or a series or

a pod cast has actually resulted in the case being reopened. can true crime is going to be a tool for social justice is absolutely, i mean look at what bill is doing, trying to draw attention to unsolved pieces. so when you think about pod cast or, or documentaries that are focused on wrongful convictions, unsolved cases, finding missing people, all of those things are generally used used for good. we have seen attention brought to uh, you know, flaws in the justice system that people are pushing to be remedied. people either pushing for individuals to get out of prison, people, you know, turn out clues for, for unsolved murders. and i think when you have situations like that, or situations where you have the victims of loved ones or the survivors themselves involved in producing and giving their consent in creating the contents, then we can still good about listening to a pod cast like that. mm hm. and um,

and there are so many different aspects um, also in terms of just a representation, i guess earlier this month here at all just here. we also launched a video pod cast of true crime reports presenter holland were heading gave us this insight into how they are approaching the story, telling on to crime reports. we're taking the popular to crime zone, right. but why evening are focused to the global safe and be owns because crime effects, all kinds of people, world wides. we will, it's a sport like countries and topics often on the reports it's in the showing or were some stories are seen as more important than others. too often the missing point, women central, the plague, news media, and they've shown right as an exempt. the way we talk about crime matters and we want to provide a new perspective and make a difference in how true crime is reported at the hearts of our series is the

intention to respect the people at the center of these events through in depth and well research journalism and to avoid sensationalism, an exploitation of tragic events. the choice to use a i was an example of this more intentionally ethical approach to the genre using a imagery with human modification by an illustrator from the global sites. so me now i would like to bring you back on this um, because as holla just mentioned, their true crime is often dominated by per trails of a very specific victim. why do you think that is? and with so many new players, a new voice is an independent youtube or as and commentators involved would you say that is bound to change as i would certainly hope it's bound to change at some point. but i think because this has been the landscape for so many decades at this

point, it's hard for production companies, let alone networks to have specific mandate. i have seen it firsthand of networks declining a case to cover because the victim is not likable. this is really problematic, so when you now think about independent creators, this is why it is so important to have this landscape so that we can hear about marginalized communities under represented individuals, equally different socio economic backgrounds. it is very crucial for us as an industry to evolve. and i can only hope with this type of discussion. we move in that direction because it next, it absolutely needs to change tara, you actually run media courses to help people who want to get involved in true crime content creation, navigating the process in an ethical way. what is the advice you give?

i say that every creator has to appropriate approach it a bit differently because we are all, we are all different people and as long as you're carrying about the victim here, reaching out to them or reaching out to their family, i think that that's ethical. but also i have on so being best i have on different players to give me their answers about ethical to crime what they think should be going on. because i think it's important to, to hear from us as a whole, because there are so many different creators out there that have done pod cache. just amazingly, like i had generation. why on there such a great podcast? i have um, you know, so many friends in this space to that talk about ethical, a true crime and what it is like sarah turn, he's talking about her sister's case and how, you know, saline back in i have even been harassed by so in, in the to crime space and you know,

it's important to support survivors and know that this is a trauma. this is something that is so heavy and we need to respect it. absolutely, and amanda is not just about the creators though, right. and there's also something to be said about us as consumers. how can we be ethical consumers of true crime? yeah, because when it comes down to it, companies, people are going to produce what makes the money and, and not everyone is like that but, but a lot of our and so it's up to us as true crime consumers to listen and watch only the things that we feel comfortable with and you can listen to a podcast probably in the 1st 10 minutes. know, and this is something that is approaching a, a respectful position. if you see that the loved ones are being interviewed, that they're involved, they're, they're even the producers of it. is, you know,

they're not playing graphic audio of a terabyte 911 calls or, or showing images and they should not be showing right. there are signs, but this is pushing it a little too far. sometimes people take too much of a casual approach. some of these committed pod cast or okay, and you can tell they have a good heart. but you know, if someone is putting on makeup while they're telling the story about, about someone being murdered, you know, maybe maybe that makes maybe that's not okay. i could see one of the feeling a little more comfortable than that. and so basically we, we vote with our wallets and what we tune into what we listen to and advertises are going to go to the most popular podcast we as consumers decide what is popular and we can choose to focus on the pod cast and the shows that are paying attention to the victims that are respectful, that are focusing on broader issues, are viable, solving on call, solve crimes, wrongful convictions. and, and bill,

what is your take on this? this is a real struggle for me. is the brother of a murder back them because there are popular pod cast. some of them have been around for a number of years that include comedic elements and i am very, very uncomfortable with as i i love to laugh, i have a life that is still filled with joy. i don't want to sound like the this dower guy who's sister was killed 38 years ago, but at the same time, i'm not terribly comfortable with a mix of, of comedy and true crime. and i, you know, several years ago i'm not going to name names here analogy there are, but um, the followers of a very popular true crime podcast. we're up, we're very much aware of the colonial parkway murders and they asked the host to cover the case. now i don't think these people do a good and i as so i sat on social media, i didn't say a lot,

but i said that's not a and that is absolutely fair. bill amanda, tara, and celine. thank you so so much for your time today. thank you for helping us examine and pack some of these issues. it was a pleasure to talk to you today and thank you all for tuning in. stay in touch with us online. use a hash tag or the handle a stream to send the 0 questions. and suggestions take care and i'll see you soon. the teenager arrested an accused of conspiring to, over through the russian government. determined to prove your innocence or a political mother becomes a permanent human rights act. a remarkable tale of political persecution and the price paid by citizens in full file districts for the new great myspace,

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