ancient city of uncle and president, they can vote here is a protected unesco world heritage sites. but as its temples of lakes and irrigation canals are being preserved, many of its inhabitants are being relocated. people in power investigates, the alleged forced evictions of thousands of families. the bathroom for the soul of anchored box part to adjust the how long us texas are. yeah, to see the chinese offices of intelligence on top says it can match the chat to p t at a fraction of the cost. donald trump says it's a wakeup pulled for this offices. so dominating the successive digital bible, this is inside storage, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm elizabeth put on them. invest is important, but the ends of dollars and artificial intelligence research and development over the past year, hoping to capitalize on this rapidly advancing technology. genitive a. i could automate countless tasks and change how many sectors do business. the u . s. has largely led this revolution, but now a chinese bible has emerged. deep 6 models of foster smaller and a lot cheaper with investors. still be willing to put that in for more cost effective alternative exists and who's in the best position to benefit from a i's boss. potential will go to our panel in a few more minutes, but 1st fenton monahan has this report, a deep sea cuz sent shock waves through the global technology sector. the chinese generative a ice start up, says it can get results comparable to that. if it's us rivals and deliver them at

a fraction of the cost and processing power, this is going to be much more accessible, especially for naturally to broader audience. and it really opens. we plans for monetization strategies that a lot of the, you know, western efforts that has been working on developing. and the deep seek team says it only costs around $6000000.00 of trans artificial intelligence model. compare that to open a light decrease or a chest. the bt we spends around $3000000000.00 a year on a i training america, seen it a lot, investment boom, venture capitalist investing more than $60000000000.00 and start ups in the past year. on top of that tech firms like amazon, microsoft, alphabet, and massa are each estimate to spend between $30.00 and $60000000000.00 in development. but analyst estimate that returns are still divorced by expenditures. the trump administration has made the sector a priority, announcing a half trillion dollar private sector fund for an infrastructure. the us presence

says the merge. the chinese rivals should push american companies to innovate even more. the release of deep seek a i from a chinese company should be a wake up call for our industries that we need to be laser focused on competing to n, cuz we have to greater so i just and the world, even chinese leadership told me that text talks of enjoyed a good run for months, but the release of deep seek set those same stocks plummeting earlier this week with chip maker in video losing more than 17 percent before rebounding. that's a real i think the disruption for the markets today is not just cheaper, but a heck of a lot cheaper. 96 percent cheaper than what we're finding from the current spend in an alternate model is like track g, p t, and gemini, consultancy firm such as p w. c. i predict that a, i would add trillions the global economy in the coming years with the us, the biggest beneficiary. but the entry of a low cost chinese competitor has raise questions about with the sector warrants.

it's major investment. and whether the us or china will gain the most from the a i revolution, vince amount in elgin 0 for inside story the spring and i guess 3 long as if c o and principal alice at constellation research, that's the technology research and advisory firm. and he joins us from the house of silicon valley, cupids, you know, in california, from sydney. we have told the walsh a professor of a, a at the university of new south wales. and also facing is a, in a human world. and in hong kong we have brian wong and independent geo political strategist and fellow at the center on contemporary china and the world. very well . welcome to all of you. right. i'll start with you in california. it has sent shock waves where you are in silicon valley and, and wall street. how has dixie being able to do this because of the thank you.

what's been going on around is what was actually being dissecting lesson here in silicon valley. it's becoming clear that deep seats me of use the open a i g p t for model to train it to model using a technique called distillation. it shows that deep seek is basically reimbursed versus engineering proprietory models and adding training, but without permission and licenses. so we've seen this going on, and we have to think that what they've been able to do is show that there is ways to take smaller models and smaller parameters into it at cheaper costs, which is really much needed right now. because in the internet revolution, things were d centralized, open, many players can cheaper. unfortunately, at this moment is closed. it's centralized. there's few players and it's very expensive. and this is an important piece because right now we thought it was going to take a lot of money, a lot of data and a lot of power to be able to solve the problems. and now we know that that's not necessarily the case. toby, there are some that are skeptical is you know, the seo of scale a i said that he understands that deep sea has something like 50000 leading edge

ships that they can't talk about because of the export restrictions that are in place by the us from what you can tell so far about how deep seek has done this. is it truly disruptive or perhaps a little deceptive? it's the, it's the, they've done it with as little as it was. this is for the climbing. i mean, maybe they've used a slightly more as it was to make it slightly better. but just the fact that the match, the same performance itself is impressive. people would say that. and so i thought it was 6 months or more behind the us. and it turns out that not the price of that with the very best of the west. so it is impressive of a big snow with that precedent that we see people take models and really reduce the amount of the computer needed to do the we saw that it would turn to a 0 to charge it to come out some work, some research as the rest of california back

a bill to chat cpg cloud didn't cost the $13000000.00. but chad cpg costs it goes $300.00. so we've seen a cost to push to try and do it with more with less i'm. so i'm actually convinced that they've got done it with perhaps as little as privileges as they claim. yeah. and timing. you're not the only one, brian, regardless of exactly how they have been able to achieve this. how much of a boost is this not just for the time chinese tech sector, but also for the chinese government, which has been trying to build the tech sector independent of the west. or i think the successes of deep seek a testament to the victory of open source a are so bothering power tries and this is a victory. but anything like government or firms within a particular national academy? i think some harris as we look at open source a as a means of in months of hiding and democratizing a development and ensuring that ultimately even a small play as the davidson eod could also stand a chance against a glass that's cost it's attempt taishan for men to size the degree of deep seeking

to attribute this through national models a china way. i think that's up in front in frank opinion. on my part, i don't think that's necessarily warranted. you know, for the simple fix that deep, so you can pick floors precisely because about horizontal, how ends you hierarchical. now fundamentally liberated and also free. it's the constituent workers, design is and take title is what a bought through, you know what codes use of light as opposed to walk me through the vice strictly defined hierarchy in arriving at a common set of goal. and that is to arrive at some semblance of breakthroughs and substantially reducing costs, while schools accomplishing the same level of achievement as open a i, when it comes to of course, you know that the models that develop. so i don't see this as a, as a big 3 by any particular states, and i think it's quite perilous to portray this race as one that is 0 some this a i race to a g i, for instance on the singularity is one that must be won or lost by nations that is not conducive narrative,

not allows us to really take stock of the actual risk. so in the why of accelerating on, on, you know, going completely break list and our tick discovery process and all the nations that's come out of the, the us administrations various us and ministrations for a few years now the, and that is why they have been pushing all of these export controls on china to limit the progress. and i want to talk about, you know, some of the loses from what's happened so far. one of the biggest of coals has been chip maker and video, which was the most profitable company in the world. re, you know, deep 6 claim that it built, that it was built at a fraction of the cost of industry leading models because it used few advance chips cools and videos, stocks to lose shuttle most 600000000000 dollars of market value on monday. that's the biggest loss in us stock market history. we've mentioned that it's rebounded

but what could this mean for the us chip sector and investments in it? so i think that's a short term blip. and anybody who knows how markets work is that this was basically an announcement that had psychological implications because everybody had to go back and look at me validations right on whether us tech giants and energy companies and real estate valuations of data centers was too high. and we'll find out in the next few weeks whether it was too high or not. but you will see that the stock market will rebound and, and video stock will come back. but the real question isn't that the real question is what you're asking. and what brian was asking as well is, can we deliver o u, i n a, the centralized abundant matter as opposed to centralized scarcity, which is where we are at the moment and how we actually do that. it's going to be very, very important. and so for in video, they're going to some more chips. the question is whether they monetize those chips as quickly or not. um and whether, you know, having that chip dominance makes a difference, right? because necessity is the mother and invent innovation in invention, right? trying to prove you can actually try to achieve some of these results without,

with less strips less power. and more importantly, you know, less resources. and that's what people want to know is can we get the faster, better, cheaper, and a heights because so far the race that y'all has been very, very expensive. but the reality is what they've done is they've done that. but they've also talked to you a stock market at the same time, so it's a perception of valuations. and so it looks like the psychological operations. because if you look at some of the reports, we saw a huge rise in chinese base social media activity. and in pakistan and fig accounts in australia, and it seems like a coordinated attack on the us during tech during season. on the other hand, it's a reality chat to us companies. why are you spending $80000000000.00 on data center development for companies like microsoft, amazon, and google, and that, that also is an important piece. absolutely. like donald trump says, i mean, he's quoted a wakeup call to be given everything that ray has said. how do you see the various sanctions export controls that the us administration is have put on place? have they been effective as school and cutting chinese progress in the tech sector?

or have they in fact being counter productive? and so the evidence is the property be counter productive, actually force deep seek to be more innovative to, to not go the route that the us tech companies go, which is scaling, which is try more money, tribal compute, sorry about g p use of the problem that's the lazy, why actually get to get to diligence, but it is the way that you know, most of the tech companies of us to be going about it. oh, it's refreshing to see where you can actually go the other way to try the end of it to do it less. i mean, because we know, ultimately we guides to succeed with much less compute. we know that you can do it with just 20 watts of power. that's what it became with 80 uses. and that's what the, you know, some of the you wanted to run in your smartphone. so the ultimate talk to is to do it with much less compute. and so actually i think it's what is demonstrated is that the us has of what it does have demonstrated the chide as a know going to with this. i rise the summer has demonstrated that the us as

a model, i think actually that explains port pulled of the photos of the us still bought. okay. which is that they had be banking in the fact that these companies were going to be the way. this is not clear that these companies are going to be the windows anymore. and so early in the advice to brian, what do you make of the timing? it's also very, very early, and the 2nd trump administration, and all of this happened in the 1st week. is it a coincidence or strategic perhaps, as well, you know, there's a say, right, that's sometimes in history that decades, but nothing happens. and then today's been ford of history a cause and i feel like what sort of witnessing this as we speak, but added to size, you know, ultimately i do think that attempts to cause china is rise and logically they could very well end up backfiring on the states and that's what number of reasons. the 1st has a note that frankly, mos know is by no means the only determinant of the pace and progress in terms of a i development as always academies low when it comes to energy consumption. and the fact that chip packaging is going to come progressively more important as time

progresses as we approach the inevitable conversion point of one that it means that beyond that, it really doesn't make any sense that smaller and smaller chips. so to pursue, you know, size for the sake of size you size is not gonna be the rate limiting step. secondly to us, it always be wary of hurting away and retiring pallets and the chinese solid scientist stem tomlinson recruits, bearing in mind the fact that many of the 6 engineers offloads that never actually set foot upon the us who heard him groans, hollins look, play a natively trained in china, these are signs and in fact, cutting off ties and also in gen, ring this out must have power boy, in the states for ethnic toy designs is good by while back fire on us as attempts to be grades or total comes pledge to make the red america technologically break again. and finally, just right quickly, you know, at the end of the day, the wild as laws and in both china and the us not small and medium states as powerless as it may seem to be superficial. they are in fact, increasingly likely to not want to take sides and not comply. strictly speaking

with a sort of semi conduct the restrictions and other forms of advanced export controls . we say to you as adult. and we see that from southeast asia and malaysia and indonesia, but also increasingly from underlined toward positives and corporations who frankly leave these restrictions on their behavior as an alternative detrimental to the corporate interests, but also to the pace and progress. often let's go discovery. say she was tardy. i know it's good to talk to you listen about, you know what this could mean for access to companies that don't have a lot of money to spend on this technology to build assistance from scratch. what that can mean for democratizing a i, i do want to ask you about that in just a moment. but since we are talking about how the impact that this has had on the us rate, where you are, how do you expect donald trump to react to what's happened as well . it's very hard to predict what donald trump is going to do. something i would say that in general we, we have been in a non kinetic war with china for the past 10 years. and i think this is what people

are realizing. and because it's a non kinetic war and it's, it's hard to say it cyber attacks. it's a, you know, pig, you know, pick fishing operations, it's whole bunch things that are happening right now and the challenges really trying to figure out what is that right? balance of trade, right? for example, you take the tick tock band and the reason there's a tick tock ban is because we can have google and facebook and china, right? the reciprocity issue more than a privacy issue, right? and so there is this notion of what are the trading ones that are going on. and of course, how do we choose to engage? and, and right now i think, you know what, we see the i race. it's about having energy blow cost energy, having lots of data, having chips and having the resources. we'll pull this together and you're right in snow solver and sovereignty is going to be important because countries that can't afford it, we're going to need to pull together to be able to get those capabilities to the residents. otherwise, we haven't a, i divide, but what the us will be doing is mostly spending time trying to be 5 bits capabilities, you know, whether it's attract the right scientists attract the right investments. and of course, you know, continue with open and transparent systems so that organizations can actually build

and expand on the revolution. however, this is the piece that's important to us, tech dry and are in danger for one reason is there are slaves to the stock price. and because their slaves with stock price, they're thinking very short term and prices continue to go up. instead of coming down in the internet age and this is where we're going to need a disruption, whether it's coming from china or any countries to drive down the cost structure. and brian, do you see the us, perhaps tightening export controls? and donald trump has put together a number of china hawks and his administration include and secretary of state mock of rubio. does that give us an indication of which way this administration like goals? it's a very good question. i would say that from an an d, the american political establishment, a lot of trouble, which trump may not necessarily count as a pods have developed. this overarching view that to inhibit china as rise to logically as into route to americans. do a political objective? well, with that being said, i do think that trump is more prone and perhaps inclined to wield export controls

as a bargaining chip, as a means of getting china to come to agreement on other issues and american views to be of importance, including the trade and balance as perceived by the dc establishment, but also in territorial questions or on geopolitical agenda. items that lots insured is more fluid as inflexibility, that, but just write quickly on your points about the folks that i would actually say that despite the whole piece credentials and put the liberties of the likes of rubio bolts and many others that trump is appointed at the end of the day, this is a cabinet comprising one off a very skilled unprofessionally, it'd be threatened and sees, and folks, and one half of all the inexperienced and dare i say green folks who are united in the common difference. i'm sick of funds like support of donald j trump. so whatever the president sees to be integral to the country or more precisely as presidencies, interest, they will execute. i'm start with that would execute very well. and flawlessly,

that is to say, if trump is bent on securing a so called grad bargain of thoughts with china and presiding, a grand piece, a coated piece, and on the left side of mazda, that many of these folks just by the own personal views within the defer to the lead or in the white house, and it's such adult to more conservative post the especially when it comes to many trays, security deployment and also presents in east asia. so less of an emphasis upon not me see, not sort of with a recent slew of pen to get it picked. uh, in terms of the deckers, deputies, assistant secretary of defense. i know most others have 10 across support to the senior, middle, or upper middle positions. so to speak in a hierarchy, but the other 100 also say perhaps more emphasis upon storing up domestic manufacturing. i'd also domestic techs about and in america, including any eyes of some of that means, given a free reign on cod, launched to many of the leading tech companies got the driving for a research and couldn't but not limited to open a lot of course, but it was one on a relationship, a must from an ottoman. and that's another story for another day. yeah, i'm glad you brought it back to open. i because as you yourself said, the race is,

has been between america and china, but this is of course, about more than these 2 countries. toby, what does this mean for the democratization of a i and for access to it? these developments i think is very good news. i. i think it's a bad news if you read us stokes the last couple of days or the they're probably bounce back. but absolutely a bridget use for the rest of the world really, which is the very ca i raise to be one for the is going to be easy to do. the democratize is as broad was, is great to point out there for me. what is most significant about this believe studies? it was very cheap. uh, not that it was these, but the, but it was open as well. you can download it. i have downloaded it myself, free a bill to post it. so it opens the promise that the countries around the world are going to be able to build their own models. and let's not forget. and the other key components of that we've, we've touched upon is the data. and you know,

deep st. grab that, it saves we're able to profit from a per day as data where be going to be able to profit all of us from deep 6 data i, i'd be able to, to build specialized models using our high quality dice. and so i think this is, you know, for the plug at really good to use analyze guides to be a force for good for all of us. not just for the tech printing as in the us. yeah. on that point re, something that we haven't touched on is of course, like many of the chinese, a models deep seek is trying to avoid politically sensitive questions. how much of a challenge is chinese government? censorship, do think it was a challenge for it's aspirations internationally as well. if you're offering it for free and it's an open system, i think that's part of the bargain, right? you're getting it free, but you're also getting the chinese view of the world. right. and i think that's by design, so i think it users using that have to take that into account, you know, but what toby was saying is true, right? you can download that on your machine on machine. all you need are for c,

p use or gpu. it's actually pretty light, you can do that, people are going to work on stripping out the training censorship as well. so they'll be models, they'll be able to take that out and put that back into use. but what we are defining is really the fact that, you know, we don't need, we really need to democratize and be centralized us. but you also have to understand who's providing you that technology, right? if it's coming from the us, so have the us buys are coming from china, the china bias, and you're gonna see that with other countries, specific types of models that are out there. um, every country is gonna want to put their cultural constraint there as well as responsible a i constraints because everybody has a different view of this. and so we're almost at this point where, when we were in biotech and we're doing biotech research like what kind of genetic research is, okay, what is humanity, okay with and then we're going to see other bodies come into place trying to regulate for a i as at that point in time, but right now that's it's the canary islands of a i it's free for all, especially in terms of trying to figure out how to get through the advancements as quickly as possible. and then of course, society typically through wheels and all those different areas through regulation over time. so we're going to see that and we'll see that curve just like we did

with the internet and told me, is that free for all good for the technology right now? well, i mean, a fundamental question is, is, comes back with this, i have the source, which is that if everyone could download the models, have any restrictions that you might put in. whether it be about to about $200.00 square or bio weapons can easily be removed. so it is going to be more interesting, more difficult watch, ology to regulate. if you know, open source wins, it's open source has many, many about us. but they also some challenges, it turns out, i mean in the age of that runs all night. and so software has been fantastic for building mean to that. um, it looks, you know, that is a good job. the open source with me, i erase as well. but then that does pose those kinds of, of questions, which is how do we ensure that it is used in responsible way. and brian will come into the end of the show. i'd like to get to a, a final question. why is this race the

a i race so and pollutions to both countries? what is it that's at stake and i'm the shawnee side business overarching judgements from amongst its lead. is that the reason why the soviet union collapsed and fundamentally lost the cold war was because it's failed to unleash the sort of new, productive forces by the men's productivity and also harness the holy grail of technology. and that is why, from the point to the c p. c, winning this race, even though it's not a war and they're all eyes and you don't want that to be a war between the 2 parties is of paramount importance. and from the states. of course, i think washington is trying to still trying to profit with the implications of a rising power in china. one that is far from being able to displace to america by the way, in so many ways. and yet, you know, the fact that china has accomplished so much over the past 4 decades as clearly i know many in dc and is a concern that if the chinese are indeed assigning level to level so to, to show to with the americans that

a well order might be one that is unfamiliar to those would enjoy the evidence of the post cold war. you need probably to moment. so the way i see it as at the last, for a come to political strategist as often think about what was powers would benefit from recognizing tennessee. so the risks of unbridled ag i and also unregulated a are, there is no way, not from a geo political point to view. we all lose. and yet we're the powers that be come to realize that well, i can only stay cautiously optimistic. thank you. right. i, you cautiously optimistic. oh, i'm cautiously optimistic under no, i think we're going to have a good arms race on a slide. i think what that stake here is really do a political influence. china is able to influence a lot of countries with their money, with their technology and with their ability to develop those nations. the us has not been paying attention to the geopolitical space. we've been asleep at the wheel for the last 4 to 8 years. and i think we're paying the price for that. and so this is a warren, off runs kinetic digital. and of course, you're going to see more as we get into space as we get into the polar caps. so

this is just one part of the over on us international strategies, and i think you'll see a much more active as president than we have in the past. and just lastly toby, because right mention space, there's so many that are holding this a possible sputnik moment, you know, referring to the soviet union's successful launch of an artificial sash, live over thing. and i believe in 1957. how do you see this event in the biggest a i race and i think it's an important stepping stone, so we know what is going to be the next industrial revolution that last industrial pollution gave us in the west high quality lives. the doubled life expectancy of i'm optimistic in the loan, so that will do the same for me to many more people on the planet. well the most to say i'm a bit pessimistic of the show to it's going to be pretty bumpy. right? the next 5 or 10 years gentlemen, it has been great to get all of your expertise on this very interesting topic. we

really appreciate your time. that is ray wong in cooper to know a california bro, toby walsh in sydney and bryan wong's in hong kong. and thank you to for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website out a 0 dot com for further discussion to go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you can also join the conversation on x a handle as, as a inside story for me, elizabeth put on them and the whole team here, bye for now. the the latest news as it breaks as this is fire holes. the focus now shifts the making sure these a delivery continues to address the long term needs of jobs, of people with detailed coverage and this type, some loss of destruction. policy news are still willing to rebuild their houses and

collect anything left from their memories from the hoss of the story for recovery will take to use in order to remove the rustle and re gain a semblance of normality. again, north and south korea to nations. technically still a tour, as relations between the neighbors deteriorates some tiny south korean islands are in the firing line. 101 east meets the island. there's costs between $2.00 korea's announced to 0 feelings, of course, that if a gosh to burst, it sparks small villages in that that's where the fastest offset these women have decided to take cities. they need to go to town and look for help for the families . they need tense and just about everything is some of the families that have managed to escape are now living here in these little shelters of stick on store their property. they'll find me land as well as their homes house or being

something most local authorities believe between 5 and 6000 people. how being affected and they had a freight. this might only be the beginning the . ringback the, the, the,

there's no limit to have a dream container, stuff in your own adventure, no counter and things the, [000:00:00;00] the around the clock. this is the news i live from doha. coming up the next 60 minutes, sir, and celebrates a new era, and they'll shut out. his name's entering president's an old military fractions. and the constitution of his old palestinians continue to travel north with less than 24 hours to go before another prisoner exchange between israel and thomas on thursday. and

a few moments the lake in riley act will become the very 1st bill that i proudly