activist sites for incision his rice with a needle and thread after 4 decades of her historic struggle against the establishment. the nomadic, semi people now face the greatest correct climate change, the witness stitches 1st stopped me on al jazeera, one of the rest of the violent from the eastern democratic republicans condo spreading regionally, and 23 rebels have taken control of the provincial capital. the president has promised a fabulous response. so what role do neighboring countries play? this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program and elizabeth put on them. m. 23 levels in the democratic republic of congo have taken control of the east and cities going uh, several international age groups and face the alarm about the humanitarian situation with the un warning of mass displacement, food shortages and of foot and hospitals. since we moved in just over 3 years ago, the one the backed crew, has advanced steadily through the eastern biase, seizing towns and villages and forcing people from the hollins. and $23.00 is just one of hundreds of revel groups in the country. it has been fighting the army for years, but the laces escalation could mark a major shift with serious implications for regional stability and go to our panel in just a few more minutes, but 1st sent in mont. ahead has this report army uniforms and military equipment blowing to soldiers from the democratic republic of congo. abandoned on the streets of go math. the science of a roster treat as m 23 rebels supported by rwandan troops advanced on the city.

foreign military contractors were supposed to boost the drc. the defenses now many have been captured, taken across the border inter alonda, what your thoughts are, why we would let them go. we have told them if they even tried to come back to a different parts of the congo, but we will get them. and they will regret that many commonly soldiers were also captured. they've been battling the m 23 rebels for more than a decade. the d r c says the group is trying to seize control of mineral resources . but rolanda says the rebels are trying to protect the ethnic tootsie population in eastern d r. c. m. 23 is made of tootsie fighters who broke away from the categories army in 2012. the group is backed by rolanda, which in turn has enjoyed decades of military support from the west. the drc, these army is out mass, but the president says it will retaliate. you know, the bus does a vigorous, coordinated response against these terrorists,

and the sponsors is on the way out. valiant armed forces of a democratic republic of congo. symbols of courage and patry. it isn't fully mobilized, ready to defend every inch about territory. miss international attempts to stop advising happened unsuccessful dispute representatives of the r c, and rwanda had met with the un. however, a meeting of the 2 presidents men to be held uncanny of this week was cancelled. i'd like regional groups have also been pushing for peace. but so far diplomacy is failed. meanwhile, the people who go by are suffering. the un says water and electricity supplies up and cut off the thinking about this. it goes on need being able to come out because the guns have gone solid and we had to come out to find some water. in many homes, food is finished, the water is finished. the m 23 rebels to control the government in 2012, but were forced to retreat the following year. this time they may prove more difficult to push out,

and there are concerns that the intensifying conflicts in eastern new york, cuckold instability across the great lakes region. vince and mountain al jazeera for inside story. the well, that spring and i guess of all the town put is the found a and she's campaign of save the congo, a grass roots campaign group working to end the conflicts and humanitarian crisis and the d. c. he joins us from london, which at moncrief is the project director for the great lakes region at the international crisis group. he's joining us from legal and funds. i'm combining most of lee is an analyst at the center for research on the congo can shop. he joins us from the gotten a and capital opera a very well and welcome to all of you, richard. i'll start with you and leo. this is not the 1st time the m. 23 has seized the strategic city of going uh, what's different this time to 2012, as well as the whole thing is small grades in the 20122013. so that's the 1st

difference. no tiny of the i'm $23.00 and the runs and obviously it's government and, and output stream south into south cables. they've ceased vast areas of north kibo and they've been doing so for the last 3 years. so i think actually in very worryingly, the context is much more comparable to the civil war, is that the 1990 is why we saw the fighting spread it from north keybo across the hold of the commentary with the involvement of neighboring countries. so when 1st and foremost at the much greater scale than we were in 201213 unfortunately, i think also, you know, those changes in the international context as well. i think good as the i'm 20 three's back because include all the records that the international diplomats who in 2013, swapped them across the rest of the roll, the distracted by other issues at the moment. and they've made that calculation for 3 years now. and i think i've been so far not actually proven correct. as i've expanded into the congo wave sally few codes quite serious. um,

on the random side. well, before we get to, if it's to de escalate the situation, i want to talk more about why the slicing has resurfaced once again valve of why is this regions so important to the m 23? is it about defending, you know, estimate tutsis and the interest? so is it about the boss minimal welfare? oh, it's all about the bus mean it will well stuck. who has the reason to next, but still you need to, to come in, come to us, always sort of say, i've tried in junior was to bring us any evidence of any type of getting into the group even come go by the corners of all the companies police force over the past 12 months or 12 gauge. there isn't because you know, there isn't an estimate issue and co cobra is made up of some 500. it's new groups for both of us. um i know we take groups either. we think they're seeing

a group that is terminating over other people, be dynamics that'd be having run to it does not exist in color. so all of these states about natural resources and what is really critical for those who wants to understand these are the entities we could not have killed, rich abuse, displaced as many people as they have done. we thought to direct support from she gave me and see similarly we thought support money coming from milton, from the us, from canada, from germany. and that you countries, again, it could not have continued to so and write so much quasi said buttons incumbent. and the question is, what is the u. k, what is the us and canada kitchen? and we turn full funding and turning it in there being focused on these buttons in cold and combine a, it is cook all these role in the d i. c. and it's support for m $23.00. that is such a big focus of this conflict. do you agree with valve,

of that for the m 23. and even for bewanda, this is not about protecting ethnic tutsis. that this is about the vast mental wells. and what do you make of, you know, when for wanda says that the actions in the d i c r defensive because they are taking action against hooters that attack tutsis on both sides of the border. who to militias that full cuz i'm a the president of wanda says is a sweat to his government and for wanda. so let's look at the fact. the m $23.00 start of a at tech in 2021. has the to cover a few towns in controlled tunnel, but not gonna move forward. so take it if you more towns they took over by a, in rule by either using my, the read by a might through what am i that is the largest quotes and reserve in the world. quote that he said, you know, research using electronic device according to the group of experts. they control

all that. mine has generated a hardship, houses, and dollars a month in tech session. and these minerals a trustworthy institute, got it. why don't we? we have such facts and then the internet is presented to the security council. parking lot of say, the big plane is to protect the minority group in the congo or the protecting mind workers in the coal tend by. so we don't know that's of the reasoning. the justification the run that may provide that the m 20 for may provide the extras does not show that this is why they are in the d r c. well, it's about control of the land and the resources rich. and do you agree with that? the m 23 has a choose the congolese government of not living up to the, you know, the 2009 piece deal. and fully integrating candidly as to what sees into the army and the administration. do they have a legitimate grievance?

i don't know actually agree with the other guys, so i'm sorry that's not right. so the device is it, but now i think i guess the other 2 guys are not to the right when you look out for london and i'm trying to read justification. so their actions, it looks very much like the austin based firefighter. there's a, an expression that smoke coming in french than an english, they own k b a whole month, which is someone who likes spies. the name comes along with a great because insides here i can put them out of the to address this question of type sees um, as one of your best sides, there are many 1000 so many hundreds, at least sorry, of minority groups in the congo. perhaps some of them are under some pressure at different times, but it was very important to point out is that the actions of the i'm 23 as the last 3 years has made the position or company based that sees more difficult. and that's very important. i think to point out of the question of uh, reminder,

taking defensive measures, well, defense the guys well because the rolanda this have been into the outcome go um, supporting them 23 since the beginning of 2022. when the, the m 23 about shortly space round to be up to 3 because i'm not sure what the history today by the way i'm at that time the s the law which is this nice the who to the group, albright so you know, keep it was up to low as a couple of years before that joint operations, but tween the role i'm done and they companies also succeeded in actually killing the leader of the state law. so the idea that based on how to invite the, i'll see in 202120 to 2, um uh, top down and the, the law, it simply makes no sense. it simply the, the fit with the facts of the great. okay. so it sounds like all of you a saying whatever sweat the who to munitions but the end the d. c might be posing to a wanda. it doesn't justify the of ones and actions in the country,

but given that they now control the biggest city in easton d, i see whether it's vast minimal wells and that they say that they are going to neighboring south tv province con, release. president obama. let me come to you, the congress president felix just academy has said that he's going to have responded vigorously, but given just how quickly going myself to the rebels, who now control it, what are the prospects of the congolese all me re taken going on by force as the we've always known that the entrance is 3 and the all do yet are going to move from coma to become a b. c is not a great move relations to any commodities person and it was expected. and well, i'm expecting why? because these people are asking and i'm to the communities government encouraging phoenix, you think it is quite simple. the time is now to create an international cream and know try being local comb. but one thing we know we have tried every single thing.

we have tried piece deals, we have tried elections, we have twice to and so just print all the different, maybe should guns into the company's army. they have no work. they have not provided communities people in the form of just the social security. well, we one student moving forward is to have more un road. yes. but other than un trips, we need an international criminal tribunal for college. and the near total cost of infinity, which is purely any may bring people or could government to continue to fund. and to end up beat violence income. yeah, we know that bonus go, which was the, which is the, he wens peacekeeping force. in the d, i. c is one of the biggest un peacekeeping forces. and yet that hasn't been able to full stop the full of going to m 23 rebels. but when you talk about, you know, international criminal tribunal is these things take so much time. and $23.00 rebels are on the offensive. they are on the move, they are threatening to take up to go into south kiva of come

body. do you think? can you see them? and we're wanda m. 23 rebels and jolanda facing the kind of africa and international, the mass of pressure. they faced last time a it is possible i was reading this morning that germany is requested during our isa financial support to run a renewal in 2012. ready was able to rand name and $23.00 when the united states we felt a little bit of aids to run, but it wasn't even much. she was $200000.00, all the out of a training that they were supposed to do. we've run down the officers, us taking that action, allowed all the european nations to full assault. so then you had skipped imagine countries most suit, another land you had the world bank. you add the the african development bank. we've holding a to rhonda that single action of mission by king randa,

supporting the financially made the wrong desktop supporting the n 23. and that is up to you for almost a decade. oh, so we know what works international pressure works. when do you use? apply on the aggressive mission and that would give the space for them. what is the deal we've whatever issue the 2nd best buy, what is less than edings is that we're not seeing the same level of pressure in 2025 as it relates to run does action. we've seen the usual combination. we've seen step event where there was say, run that show, we've drove the soldiers from the call with the statements on not sufficient. yeah, that's really interested in what you're saying. we're not seeing the same level of pressure because as richard said earlier, this is much more serious than what we've seen in the past. he said that it's reminiscent of, you know, the beginning of the con, the leaves civil was in the late ninety's in early 2 thousands that resulted in the death of more than 5000000 people before talking about more,

more of the efforts to try and de escalate the situation which is how much talent treat to using the m $23.00 has its site settled as well? that's the question that was like 6, how follow up regarding the i'm 23 guys. i'm just like to re address a couple of points that you are the guys tonight to be made earlier. i agree entirely, that maximum pressure, ok, garley is absolutely necessary. this point to pull us back from a very precarious and worrying situation as the m 23 and we're wondering is pushing to soft people but and also a lot of pressure on the burdens. the burn, the a government is already very in a very fragile state. but of floundering economy and so forth, we really are in a very, very difficult situation. and the maximum pressure underwent the is clearly a very necessary part of the equation. however, i have to say that we have to look at the other side and we have to note that, wow, morally and in terms of international law,

we can very much sympathize with contrasts or we've accomplished government. they have showed such we close on the ground, they have been militarily unable to stop the invasion of that country. and that is, of course, a very difficult thing for them to accept. and president to study, you know, not surprisingly, last night went on television and talked about continuing award, extra one dot net despite the fact that he's on be it's going to put up some resistors effectively when it comes to defending government town. they sell state, they more or less melted away. so we go, the i real time i between the morality here, where did i i would agree, but the color has been the victim of aggression. but at the same time, on the, the stronger pops that he is imposing, practiced on the ground, which will necessarily speed into

a negotiating position. so what influence on the international diplomats? so we're trying to sort this out. i mean, they need in a short time to try to stop close to before you're of the best of raise the question of international tribunals. but as you mentioned, that's not something you've set up in a few weeks. whereas at the moment we really have the question in front of us and in front of international diplomats, whether africa, no or western of stopping the regional here, i don't think that's a long historic saturated baba. in the meantime, m. 2020 has merged with 17 political parties, several groups to form the congo river lines if led by former election commission chief, who's from weston, interested in the, from west and the see, i mean, how much of a growing threat is this alliance to the congolese government? they seem to have national aspirations here even of over throwing the congolese government a well, the, the reason such thing as dan 23, we need to be company funk while we are facing. what are we going to see but basing

it all and yet the see through london of the co name, then go and everyone else behind doing tools of puppet. i'm fighting on behalf of the gun. me why the side except to reach a point and this is up so that you've got to and is an open secret that felix the security, the company's president is completely incompetent and it has failed to rise to the child and he has failed to, you know, pay soldiers accordingly. i spelled to create a molded on it. yeah. spoke to so many things. but we must also remember that because these government to communities owe me to call these people are fighting, i guess, a country that receives $1000000000.00 every single year from there was in 2021. when and 23. we had management pulled together, begun funding, and 7 soldiers going to kill, to break through the space. people being too much the criminal to the west. cape polk, i'm the one p,

then another 1000000000 was different in 2000 and try to do another one between 2023 another 1000000000 in 2024. and in 2025, you would also receive another 1000000000. you cannot fight against someone who is receiving so much support. how much training so much goes from the worst and also being protect, expose that was from spacing on my comfortability, which i talked about international. pretty much the take things to know. but how, how, how long did it take us to indulge and put your name in, but shuffle jennings, white people in ukraine. somehow when it comes to black, people being killed when it comes to drugs for being killed, been to national just the system takes longer. but when it's what lives we talked and then just somehow we found a way to indulge, but they didn't put any pressure. and some of these people we've been in less than a year is, this is what we think international committee to combine a, as vasa has pointed out,

there has been billions of dollars that have been that have gone to rwanda. a lot of it from western nations. bewanda is the strongest military in the region, and we have to talk about it's not the only country, of course that's involved in the d i. c, which it has been talking about, you know, troops from devonte. and in fact, we have the warranty and government troops that are supporting the con, the lease army, and they are fighting for warranty and rebels and south keeping province on the border with balloon. they talk to us about the real danger of this conflicts building of the d. c. many board is the different trips or they have uh they have 4 different plans that we have. we have so far for kind of my lot we, we have funds in the world that part of the mission of the united nation and also the mission of subject. and i think brewing these there for the same thing for his own security and the context of what we are talking about. we have the versions of

rwanda, even though we have spent a lot of time with the camp by rhonda is that we cannot talk about one that we buy uganda. and the pens. me is the most people who may be watching this may not be able to take the time to read a 160 page report from the united nation group of experts. about when you open the human group of experts, you understand why we are all almost sounding the same, right? and then we use this per military using drones using a bit system as weapon of these all the evidence that the you and group of experts are presenting. yeah, richard we, i, i want to put this question to but should, because we only have about 5 minutes left in the program. richard bos, rolanda and uganda have had a history of military interventions in the d. c. they, as you know, therefore, in the 1st colleagues will on the same side in the 2nd call, these will support and rival groups. do we know what the relationship between those

2 countries as now and how that might affect the m $23.00 and it's advances they will that to 5, but it's, we need ahold of the program and the one you don't get the whole 5 minutes. a good, i shouldn't be lost to speed and that's what i was just gonna say. are you going to run the relations is always fluctuates him. but at the moment we see some very worrying signs of very seeing the people in uganda or including the son of the president, making some noises in support of the 23 ever wanted advice and have no tv. i'm not sure where he is sold. all right, baba can the underlying, the political, the social economic issues that have fueled instability in the d. c for so long. how can they be solved? is a military solution can, can that be part of the solution? you know, he's speaking, this is justice. we've all just is chromeboys. no,

they're stopping to see any piece. and that just this would only be safe in the form of an international frame, you know, type, you know. so come with that needs to be done at the moment. so my mind, my hope to my prayers, i really wish the people of know few winds up people as i speak to one of the biggest thoughts between congo kinds of hosting team proposal stuff, obviously things right, from biology, soldiers and m $23.00 soldiers essentially went to name to attach them. and if that is our allow which to go on bye day, you too bye to us by the adjustments and can you do to us funding for click on his findings. then we are going to see it cut the cost to feed that part of the world as well. so it's really, really critical that those people who i did and lived in the baltic, i mean for lean back. that'd be stock page, and that'd be stuck with need entry support. that is stop the trick of meeting true

training. the cabinet is comfortable saving, you know, adaptive, forcing out of conduct. we thought support from the west governments to some of the studies trends against the communities before it gets to go. what is um, i'm calling about tad, because i'm come by the can, the, you with the you, the you, when, who are or cooling for a cease fire? the can yet, and, and goldman presidents of being, you know, leading processes on the d i. c. and who have been calling for over to negotiations without any conditions. do you see this coming to fruition actual or it will only come to fruition if there is pressure from american people of citizens of these countries, the need to be aware of was what is actually happening. but in terms of the action that needs to take place is very direct, they need to be sectional. rhonda, we've all the more of a to rhonda in the case of the united states is not even immoral appeal. you see legal appeal, public law 19456 section one to 5 pauses on the secretary of state. rubio today to

revolt a, to any nation destabilizing the content. so that's one thing. the 2nd thing that needs to happen is that the identify commanders of the run, the defense force, walk, participating in supporting the anthony pre mutual, also have target a section. and last is the weapons by the sophisticated weapon being use the need to be tracked down on monday. fractures who are providing these uh, within those systems jamming gps uh, systems of planes and so on. so following up with the weapon manufacturers providing the military supports to run the and then being used in the d. r. c would be important. and the rest for internal issues of the condo, it is up to the commodities to rise up to the location to come. what is present as spoken to commodities. people know that they have been fighting 61996 through claim dignity to reclaim the big country to have peace us. that'd be the key would that

will be successful international, extra as i have to pay that role. what commodities also friday on the sides to stabilize the country. all right, that is our discussion for today. thank you to all of you for this. a very important, an interesting discussion that as well by tomba in london, richard moncrief and leo and come by le, let's of hooley and i'll try and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website out of the com i prefer the discussion to go to a facebook page that facebook dot com forward slash a inside store, or you can also join the conversation on x. i handle this at a inside story from me, elizabeth put on them and the whole team here, bye for now the . it was the capital of the combat empire. the serene, ancient city of uncle and present day cambodia is

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