the wants of the capital of the compare empire. the serene, ancient city of uncle and present day cambodia is a protected unesco world heritage sites. but as its temples of lakes and irrigation canals are being preserved, many of its inhabitants are being relocated. people in power investigates the alleged force evictions of thousands of families. the battle for the soul of anchored body part to adjust the one of the risks of wine and from the east and democratic republicans, congo, spreading regionally and 23 rentals have taken control of the provincial capital. the president has promised to give us response. so what role do neighboring countries play? this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program on elizabeth put on them and 23 rebels in the democratic republic of congo. have taken control of the east and cities of goma, several international age groups and face the alarm about the humanitarian situation with the un warning of mass displacement, food shortages of food and hospitals. since we imagined just over 3 years ago, the one the backed crew, has advanced steadily through the eastern biase, seizing towns and villages and forcing people from the hollins. and $23.00 is just one of hundreds of revel groups in the country. it has been fighting the army for years, but the laces escalation could mark a major shift with serious implications for regional stability and go to our panel in just a few more minutes, but 1st sent in mont. ahead has this report. army uniforms and military equipment

blowing to soldiers from the democratic republic of congo. abandoned on the streets of goma. the science of a roster treat as m 23 rebels, supported by rwandan troops advanced on the city. foreign military contractors were supposed to boost the drc. the defenses now many have been captured, taken across the border inter alonda, what your thoughts are, why we would let them go. we have told them if they even tried to come back to a different part of the congo, but we will get them and they will regret it. many commonly soldiers were also captured. they've been battling the m 23 rebels for more than a decade. the d r c says the group is trying to seize control of mineral resources . but rolanda says the rebels are trying to protect the ethnic tootsie population in eastern d r. c. m. 23 is made of tootsie fighters who broke away from the categories army in 2012. the group is backed by rolanda, which in turn has enjoyed decades of military support from the west. the drc,

these army is out mass, but the president says it will retaliate. you know, the bus does a vigorous, coordinated response against these terrorists and responses is on the way out. valiant armed forces of the democratic republic of congo symbols of courage and patry. it isn't fully mobilized, ready to defend every inch about territory. a nice international attempt to stop advising happened unsuccessful. the state representative of the r c and rwanda had met at the un. however, a meeting of the 2 presidents meant to be held uncanny of this week was cancelled, but my regional groups have also been pushing for peace, some of that. but so far, diplomacy is failed. meanwhile, the people who go by are suffering. the un says water and electricity supplies up and cut off the seats about this. it goes on and you've been able to come out because the guns have gone solid and we had to come out to find some more time. in many homes, food is finished. the water is finished, the m 23 rebels to control the government in 2012,

but were forced to retreat the following year. this time they may prove more difficult to push out, and there are concerns that the intensifying conflicts in eastern new york, cuckold instability across the great lakes region. vince and mountain l to 0 for inside story. the well that spring and i guess the valve of tampa is the found a and she's campaign of save the congo, a grass roots campaign group working to end the conflicts and humanitarian crisis and the d. c. he joins us from london, which at moncrief is the project director for the great lakes region at the international crisis group. he's joining us from legal and funds. i'm combining most of lee is an analyst at the center for research on the congo can shop. he joins us some of the gotten a and capital opera, a very warm welcome to overview richard, i'll start with you and leo. this is not the 1st time the m. 23 has seized

a strategic city of going uh, what's different this time to 2012, as well as the whole thing is small grades in the 20122013. so that's the 1st difference. no time you see i'm 23 and the runs and obviously it's government and, and output stream south into south cables. they've ceased vast areas of north kibo and they've been doing so for the last 3 years. so i think actually in very worryingly, the context is much more comparable to the civil war, is that the 1990 is why we saw the fighting, spread it from north keybo across the whole of the comb, good with the involvement of neighboring countries. so when 1st and foremost at the much greater scale than we were in 201213 unfortunately, i think also, you know, those changes in the international context as well. i think good as the i'm 20 three's back because include all the records that the international diplomats who in 2013 shopping across the rest stop. i roll the distracted by other issues at the

moment and they've made that calculation for 3 years now. and i think i've been so far not actually proven correct. as i've expanded into the congo with fairly few codes, quite serious um, on the random side. well, before we get to, if it's to de escalate the situation, i want to talk more about why this fighting has resurfaced once again father, why is this region so important to the m 23? is it about defending, you know, estimate tutsis and the interest? so is it about the boss, middle welfare? oh, it's all about the bus mean it will well stuck on who has the reason to next. but still, you need to, to come in congress as always sort of say, i've tried in junior was to bring us any evidence of any type of getting into the group even come, go by the corners of all the companies police force over the past 12 months. or 12 gauge there isn't. because you know,

there isn't an estimate issue in co cobra is made up of some 500 is name groups form of us. minority groups either using this single group that is terminating over the people beach dynamics that'd be having run to it does not exist in color. so all of these states about natural resources and what is really critical for those who wants to understand these are the entities we cannot have killed, rich abuse, displaced as many people as they have done. we go to the right support funky guns and see it similarly, we thought so forward to money coming from milton, from the us, from canada, from germany, and that you countries ok, going to go to continue to so, and write so much quasi said buttons income and the question is, what is the u. k, what you sent us and can i get you in return for funding? and turning it in there, being full governments by the end income. and kamala,

it is, could gullies role in the i, c, and it's support for m $23.00. that is such a big focus of this conflict. do you agree with valve, of that for the m 23 and even for bewanda, this is not about protecting ethnic tutsis. that this is about the vast mental wells. and what do you make of, you know, when for wanda says that the actions in the d c defensive because they are taking action against hooters that attacked would seize on both sides of the border who to militias that full cuz i'm a, the president of wanda says is a threat to his government and for wanda. so let's look at the fact. the m $23.00 start of a at tech in 2021. has the to cover a few towns in controlled tunnel. we're not gonna move forward. so take it if you more towns they took over by a, in rule by a, the reason my, the read by a might through why am i that is the largest quotes and reserve in the world. quote

that he said, you know, research using electronic device according to the group of experts. they control all that. mine has generated a hardship, houses, and dollars a month in tech session. and these minerals a trustworthy answer key. got it. why don't we? we have such facts and then the internet is presented to the security council. how can one say the big plane is to protect the minority group in the congo or the protecting mind workers in the coal tend by. so we don't know that's the reasoning. the justification the run that may provide that the m 20 for me provide the extras does not show that this is why they are in the d r. c. well, it's about control of the land and the resources rich. and do you agree with that? the m 23 has a choose the congolese government of not living up to the you know,

the 2009 piece deal. and fully integrating congolese took, sees into the army and the administration. do they have a legitimate grievance? i don't know actually agree with the other guys, so i'm sorry, that's not great. so the device is it, but now i think i guess the other 2 guys are not to the right when you look at are one done and i'm trying to 3 justification subtractions. it looks very much like the austin based firefighter. there's a, an expression that smoke coming in french than in english. they own k b a whole month, which is someone who lives far as the name comes along with a great because insides here. i can put them out of the to address this question of type sees um, as one of your best sides, there are many 1000 so many hundreds, at least sorry, of minority groups in the congo. perhaps some of them are under some pressure at different times, but it was very important to point out is that the actions of the i'm 23 as the last 3 years has made the position or company based on the season more difficult or,

and that's very important, i think, to point out of the question of uh, reminder, taking defensive measures, well, defense the guys well because the rolanda this have been into the outcome go um, supporting them 23 since the beginning of 2022. when the, the m 23 about shortly space round to be up to 3 because i'm not sure what the history today by the way, i'm at that time uh the s t l r, which is this nice the uh who to the group uh, albright. so, you know, keep, it was up to low as a couple of us before that joint operations, but tween the role i'm done and they come release all of the we have succeeded in actually killing the leader of the state law. so the idea that based on how to invite the, i'll see in 202120 to 2, um uh, top down and the, the law, it simply makes no sense. it simply the, the fit with the facts of the great. okay. so it sounds like all of you a saying whatever sweat the who to munitions but the end the d. c might be posing

to a wanda. it doesn't justify the of ones and actions in the country. but given that they now control the biggest se in easton d, i see whether it's vast minimal wells and that they say that they are going to neighboring south tv province con release. president obama. let me come to you. the congress president felix just academy has said that he's going to have responded vigorously, but given just how quickly going myself to the rebels, who now control it, what are the prospects of the congolese all me read, taking going on by force so that we've always known that the entrance history and the o d. s. are going to move from coma to become a b. c is not a great relations to any commodities person and it was expected. and well, i'm expecting why? because these people are asking and i'm to the communities government encouraging

phoenix, you think it is quite simple. the time is now to create an international cream and know try be welcome home. but one thing we know we have tried every single thing. we have tried piece deals, we have tried elections, we have twice to and so just print all the different, maybe should guns into the company's army. they have no work. they have not provided communities people in the form of just the social security. well, we one student moving forward is to have more un, no, yes, but other than un trips, we need an international criminal tribunal for college. and the near total cost of infinity, which is purely any may bring people that call conducted to continue to fund and to end up beat violence income. yeah, we know that minus go, which was the, which is the you when's peacekeeping force in the d? i c is one of the biggest un peacekeeping forces, and yet that hasn't been able to full stop the full of going to m $23.00 rebels.

but when you talk about, you know, international criminal tribunal is these things take so much time and 23 rebels are on the offensive. they are on the move, they are threatening to take up to go into south kiva of come body. do you think? can you see them and we're wanda m. 23 rebels and jolanda facing the kind of applicant international, the mass of pressure they faced last time. it is possible, i was reading this morning that germany is requested during our east financial support to run a renewal in 2012 will was able to randy and 23 when the united states we felt a little bit of aids to run, but it wasn't even much, she was $200000.00. all the out of a training that they were supposed to do is run down the officers us taking that action allowed all the european nations to for the salt. so then you it's skin.

imagine countries most suit another land. you have the world bank, you add the, the african development bank. we've all the a to run that. the single action of mission backing run that supporting on the financially made the run desktop supporting day and $23.00. and that is up here for almost a decade. oh, so we know what works. international pressure works. when do you use a fly on the aggressive mission and that would give the space for them. what is the deal we've whatever issue the 2nd best buy, what is less than 80 is that we not seeing the same level of pressure in 2025 as it relates to run does action. we've seen the usual commission. we've seen step amount where there was say, run that show we've drove the soldiers from the comb with these statements are not sufficient. yeah, that's really interested in what you're saying. we're not seeing the same level of pressure because as richard said earlier, this is much more serious than what we've seen in the past. he said that it's reminiscent of, you know, the beginning of the con,

the leaves civil was in the late ninety's in early 2 thousands that resulted in the death of more than 5000000 people before talking about more of more of the efforts to try and de escalate the situation, which is how much territory do you think the m $23.00 hasn't site settled as well? that's the question that i think most websites how far will kick out in the i'm 23 guys. i just like to re address a couple of points that you are the guys tonight you made earlier. i agree entirely, that maximum pressure on k garley is absolutely necessary. this point to pull us back from a very precarious and worrying situation as the i'm 23 and we're wondering, is pushing to south people put an open lot of pressure on the burdens that were in the government is already very in a very fragile state. but of floundering economy and so forth, we really are in a very, very difficult situation. and a maximum pressure underwent that is clearly a very necessary part of the equation. however,

i have to say that we have to look at the other side and we have to note that, wow, morally and in terms of international law, we can very much sympathize with contrasts or we've accomplished government. they have showed such we close on the ground, they have been militarily unable to stop the invasion of that country. and that is, of course, a very difficult thing for them to accept. and president to study, you know, no, no surprisingly last night went on television and talked about continuing to walk extra one dot net despite the fact that he's on the, it's going to put up some resistors effectively when it comes to defending government town. they sell state, they more or less melted away. so we go, the i real time i between the morality here, where did i i would agree, but the color has been the victim of aggression. but at the same time, on the,

the stronger pops a is imposing, practiced on the ground, which will necessarily feed into negotiating position. so what influence on the international diplomat? so we're trying to sort this out. i mean, they need in a short time to try to stop close to before you rather uh, best of raise the question of international tribunals. but as you mentioned, that's not something you've set up in a few weeks. whereas at the moment we really have the question in front of us and in front of international diplomats, whether africa, no or western of stopping the regional here, i don't think that's a long historic saturated baba. in the meantime, m. 2020 has merged with 17 political parties, several groups to form the congo river lines if led by former election commission chief, who's from weston, interested in the, from west and the see, i mean, how much of a growing threat is this alliance to the congolese government? they seem to have national aspirations here even of, of

a throw in the congolese government. well, the reason such thing as den 23, we need to be company funk while we are facing. why? because but pacing it all and yet the see through london of the co name then go and everyone else behind doing tools of puppet. i'm fighting on behalf of the gun. me why the side except to reach its point and this is up so that you've got to and is an open secret that felix to security, the company's president. it's completely incompetent and it has failed to rise to the child and he has failed to, you know, pay soldiers accordingly spelled to create more development. you have spoken to so many things, but we must also remember that the communities government to communities, the communities, people. oh, fighting, i guess a country that receives $1000000000.00 every single year from there was in 2021. when m 53. we had management, full government,

begun funding of 7 soldiers going to kill, to break through the space. people being too much the criminal to the west. cape polk, i'm the one p, then another 1000000000 was different in 2000 and try to do another one between 2023. another 1000000000 in 2024. and in 2025, you would also receive another 1000000000. you cannot fight against someone who is receiving so much support. how much training so much go from the worst and also being protect, expose that was from spacing on my comfortability, which i talked about international. pretty much the take things to know. but how, how, how long did you take us to indulge and put your name in, but shuffle killings white people in ukraine. somehow when it comes to black, people being killed when it comes to prompt for being kills, been to national just the system takes longer. but when it's what lives we talked and then just somehow we found a way to indulge. but let me put you in in russia,

and some of these people we've been in less than a year is this isn't really an international committee to combine a, as vasa has pointed out, there has been billions of dollars that have been that have gone to rwanda. a lot of it from western nations. bewanda is the strongest military in the region, and we have to talk about it's not the only country, of course that's involved in the d i. c, which it has been talking about, you know, troops from devonte. and in fact, we have the warranty and government troops that are supporting the con, the lease army, and they are fighting for warranty and rebels and south keeping province on the border with balloon. they talk to us about the real danger of this conflicts building of the d. i see many board is or the difference or they have therefore different man that we have. we have software, can my lie, we with guns in the world,

that part of the mission of the united nation and also the mission of subject. i think brewing these there for the same thing, for its own security and the context of what we are talking about with the info sions of rhonda. even though we have spent a lot of time with the cam by rhonda is that we cannot talk about one that we buy uganda. and one pairs me is the most people who may be watching this may not be able to take the time to read a 160 page report from the united nation group of experts. but when you open the human group of experts, you understand why we are all almost sounding the same, right? then we use this per military using drones using oh, but systems weapon of these all the evidence that the you and group of experts are presenting. yeah. richard, we, i, i want to put this question to but should, because we only have about 5 minutes left in the program. richard bos, rolanda and uganda have had a history of military interventions in the d. c. they,

as you know, therefore, in the 1st colleagues will on the same side in the 2nd call as well as the portion rival groups. do we know what the relationship between those 2 countries as now and how that might affect the m 23 and it's advances they will not take 5 minutes. we need ahold of the program and the one you don't get the whole 5 minutes. i good. i shouldn't be lost to speak, and that's what i was just gonna say. um you got the reminder, relations is already fluctuate too, but at the moment but we see some very worrying signs of very seeing the people then you got there including the son of the president, making some noises in support of the m 23 ever went through the invasion of no. okay, but i'm not sure to worry esl, the right vive up can the underlying the political, the social, the economic issues that have fuel the instability in the d. c for so long. how can

they be solved? is a military solution can, can that be part of the solution? the piece begins with justice. we've all just these companies now there's stopping to see a new piece. and that just this would only be staff in the form of an international freedom. you know, type, you know, so confident that needs to be done at the moment. so my mind, my heart to my prayers, i really wish that people of know few wins up to, to speak to one of the biggest thoughts between congress pantyhose between proposal stuff. obviously going straight from biology, soldiers and m 23 soldiers, essentially what's happening to attach them and is that, is that allow which to go on bye day? you too bye to us by the adjustments and can you do to us funding ok gotten his findings, then we are going to see it cut the costs of you know, follow just developed as well. so it's really, really critical that those people who i did and lived in the full peak,

i mean for lean back. that'd be stock 50 and that'd be stuff that needed to support . that is stuff to trick, that's really true training, but i think i mean is counting saving. you know, that is forcing code of conduct. we thought support from the west governments to some of those studies, trends against the communities before it gets to go. what is, um, i'm coming by, what have you because i'm come by the can the, you with the you, the you, when, who are or cooling for a cease fire the can yet, and, and goldman presidents have been, you know, leading processes on the d. i. c, and who have been calling for over to negotiations without any conditions. do you see this coming to fruition actual it will only come to fruition if uh there is pressure from american people of citizens of these countries they need to be aware of what's, what is actually happening. but in terms of action that needs to take place is very direct, they need to be sectional. rhonda, we're holding up

a to rhonda indicates that the united states is not even immoral. appeal is illegal appeal? public law 19456 section one to 5. pauses on the secretary of state. rubio today to revolt a, to any nation destabilizing the content. so that's one thing. the 2nd thing that needs to happen is that the identify commanders of the run, the defense force, walk participating in supporting the anthony 3 need to also have target a section. and last is the weapons, right. the. ready sophisticated weapon being use the need to be tracked down on manufacturers who are providing these uh within are those systems jamming gps assistance or planes and so on. so following up with the weapon manufacturer as providing the military supports to run the and then being used in the d. r. c would be important and. busy us for internal issues of the color. it is up to the commodities to rise up to the location to come. what is present? i've spoken to companies. people know that they're being pharmacies,

1996 through claims dignity to reclaim the big country to have peace us. that'd be the cheap route that will be successful, international, extra as i have to pay that role. welcome. what he's also finding on the sides to stabilize the country. all right, that is our discussion for today. thank you to all of you for this. very important, an interesting discussion that as well by tomba in london, richard moncrief and leo and compile a list of hulu and opera and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, alj a 0 don't com. i prefer the discussion to go to a facebook page that facebook dot com forward slash a inside store or a. you can also join the conversation on x. i handle this at a inside story from me, elizabeth put on them and the whole team here, bye for now. the,

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