they were alive or not, and the conditions under which they had. and he told me, i must, must also say that since october 7. and this is why these kind of damages of celebrations are very important. but the only because they are showing us how. but as things are liberties, it's part of me know what is used in captivity, but also because is there it had intentionally to call any form of communication with the outside world since october 7th, the band, the old forms of communication with family members or business visitations none of the kids from the i, c r c were able to visit, present there's none of the 5 minutes were able to visit their loved ones. so the only extra way of me think that loved ones, especially those in the augusta is some of this distribution. some of them i can imagine would be the least the only to find out that the loved ones are at the killed, that their homes are demolished, that this kind of entire destruction of because they've had been systematically inflicted upon and think we should long have become colleagues and basel living in the 6th stream information isolation, i suppose in itself, is arguably

a form of torture, but specifically speaking prisoners. so i've been talking about being infected with skin conditions, such as staves about being shown videos of the destruction of the homelands, just shortly before being released. what details do you have? yes, i mean this done, this conditions of course interviewed. they write the form of communication banner and this kind of information, ben is, is yet another form of torture. but is there, it has actually been imposing what the forms of torture, including system as it can be things big. in addition, human lation of sexual assault, we read testimonies from the space inside minutes, it made it through detention center city to man weird about it. what is the quote to the, is there any sort? there's actually leap again, could be a simian detainees. we've also heard stories of that as a business says a systematically denying a business entities data medications engaging in a system ethics. the reason being that this explains why, but to send it presents at actually leaving in a very framed state. we've,

we've heard testimonies and breath testimonies of but as the indians being held in solitary confinement for over 15 months, not at least 10 additional rod who is a former member of rice indian fundamentals in search of confinement. for months. she left anybody a government that states and i think this part of the just kept the because this has been whole so many so many, so many insights into what it is like for many of those people who've been held and is ready to tension possible for us many thanks for joining us. we have reached the end of the program. that's it for me. the football co basis, the day of the 5th swap of hostages for prisoners. a coverage of course, continues here on how to sierra us off the upfront the, the, the

images with the desk is so full city and the journalist reported as though they're reporting the weather. those are the words of our guest. this week. to describe is real genocidal. campaign and guidance. so what role does the western days play in perpetuating a narrative, the humanizes type of city? and how does that shape our understanding of their struggle for justice and liberation? this week on upfront? i'll ask those questions to palestinian poet and writer. how many how many good, thank you so much for joining me and upfront. thank you so much for having. you grow up in the shifter, a post in the neighborhood in east jerusalem, which has been under threat of dispossession for decades. in fact,

and 2009 settlers forcibly entered your home and it took over part of it. so can you talk about what it was like to witness something like that as a child, and how those kinds of experiences in the neighborhood shaped her identity. uh, funny, funny enough with missing settlers look for an born settlers. come into our house and take it forcibly. was the norm because our neighborhood was one of the many, many neighborhoods around occupied palestine has been facing for us expulsion. and it only, as it only was when i grew up, that i realize how absurd it was that this was happening. and there were people who were saying that it was defined to create a day to go over our houses. and they turn our neighborhoods from posting into is really but i think any, if i were i, if i were to unpack it, it must have been very, very traumatic to witness something. and to just have such

a part of part of this instilled in you as a child. but then again, you almost feel as though you are lucky that your house has only taken not, you know, blowing up the way it is in and register, for example, or in, in parts of the west bank like an old criminal union. and it's, and so once that situation is kind of like a hierarchy of it oppression that's really messed up. and it really like alters your, your outlook on, on the world. so you have a new book out what you're going to get into the detail about in a bit. but any you write that quote, the very moment that a palestinian exits the room he is on child, it flung away from childhood and treated as both a good for nothing. nobody any dangerous ticking time bomb at once. but how did you experience this idea of being on childhood? um, well 1st of all i, i said history just say that the concept of, of the unsolved, it is something that's an inquiry bypassing academic. and i did said hooked over to

the can to talk about the kind of false is not processing and children and or in my, in my particular case, it's not necessarily, it's unique in some aspects. and it's very a, uh, you know, common in many other aspects. you know, the fact that you are treated like an adults from the, from your very, from the very beginning of your life. and you're treated like you, there is no way to coddle your shelter from the reality of the occupation. there is not a time where in your parents are going to have to talk with you because it's you what you see it from the 1st time you open your eyes and also those are the occupation forces. treat you as though you are threat on the tech point and the street on your way to school and so on and so forth. but for me and for some many other posting and children also you are forced into sometimes for sometimes that kind of like volunteer like somehow find yourself into the role of the advocate as a child we saw just to demonstrate it. and so like most flagrant for him in the gaza strip when pulsing and children put on the so called children's press

conference. and they stood, many of them behind the podium included with the world to stop the bombing to some of the dentist. i have to go step and for many policy and children, this is a role you take on because you recognize or the n g o. com or the activists and the human rights. organizations that come to your neighborhood recognize that lawmakers around the world, the adult audiences around the world are quite racist against posting is particularly policy and then and so we burden or children with the task of giving humans ice for humanity. we asked them to, to memorize these talking points. to memorize the is, is the idea that the world may be more generous. they may have more grace for palestinian children. then po, sending adults that at the races and doesn't, doesn't quite sleep into their perception of the children is much better. that's the idea. that's the theory. but uh, on the contrary, i think the world has a lot of this day and for palestinian children that actually brings me to, to the title of your book. again, it's a new book, it's,

it's called perfect victims. and the politics of appeal, this idea of the perfect victim is very provocative and compelling. what's a perfect victim? it's a, it's a mythical. it's an ethical crates are the perfect victim. i think. so. certainly, i don't think it's a, it's not a no idea like a certainly like the block circle we've, we've heard a lot about pretty good times. i've heard people need to confirm that the whole also in the women's rights movement, right, when we're talking about like victims of sexual assault, it's often demanded of women to, to, for trade is infallible dispossession. this in this aspect of complete innocence. but this paradigm of innocence is not only unattainable, but it really throw so many people under the bus. so many people are unable to assume this, these characteristics. you know, oftentimes we talk about, you know, women and children as the main, you know, the main victims of war. and people could take that free marker and they'll say,

but don't forget the policy and meant and they will qualify, you get what they will qualify. it by saying, and the person you met because they are gentle fathers and they are loving figures and blah, blah. my argument, i think it's, you know, an argument that's been made before, but i tried to just really situated and also in context is that those palestinian men could be absolutely abhorrent and they still deserve dignity. observation, because there is not an aspect or a certain personality that you must portray or must employee before you are worthy of human rights. you talk about the ways in which palestinians are saved from the human ization. bring up issues of class, race, nationality. an example of this was when these really military shot did my colleague obviously return latrina blacklist. a lot of the media focus was placed on the fact that she was a us passport hold. how does this emphasis on her citizenship reflect the kind of broader pattern around marginalizing palestinian identity?

like you said, a distance is her from her post and in this and it's like so. i hate i hit save, but it's almost every day that up of some young journalist is killed. and so, and it's very, very seldom that they make it into the headlines. and if they don't make it into the headlines, there are often vilified. the headlines were claimed that they have ties to her mouth where they were, you know, doing something suspicious or that they were in a place they shouldn't be. and we think we think it's a strategy by emphasizing someone's americanness or someone, someone's british possibly. we think it is, it is going to deliver us justice, but in the case of city and mega dresser, so in that case a city and the only thing is, has the liver is more commotion and more fuss in the media, but it hasn't given her justice and on the contrary, it has made it even harder for us to advocate on behalf of slim pulsing and journalists who do not have these for un, this for, and passports. because,

you know, being a journalist targeted by it is rarely snipers is an atrocity within itself. but we are telling personal journals, no, that's not enough. you also need to be a citizen of dislike, very privilege country or you need to be a christian because most of, most of all students are most of them. that's where you have one story or you need to be a woman and you to be this and you need to be that and all of the is, is irrelevant. it, it, it demands of the 1st thing is an advocate to an activist, to double their efforts when it should be a straightforward story. there is a journal that was short and brought there like as witnesses say, as, as cameras have a, you know, documented. and it should be rejected worldwide. we should not, there should be no hills yet. we should not have to build this impossible case. do you ever find yourself susceptible or compelled by of that sort of tendency to prioritize the special people in the perfect? because i asked 2nd because inactive as the united states, i mean, i would see

a black kid who gets killed, who's going to college on monday or who goes to harvard as this great example to show the world. see, it doesn't matter how perfect you are, they're going to kill you any way. there's a, there's a temptation to move away from the heart or cases. you know, the person who was shot with his hands up, even if he had a criminal record or she had a criminal record, you know, do you ever find yourself kind of compelled, by the most perfect victim there? oh, certainly all the time, every day, every day, i mean there were, there was a video of the victims of the perfect picture of talking love and on. and it was like a month as of the victims. and the 1st 2 i think were man and then the later victims were kids. and i was thinking in the back of my head, it would have been a better the tauriel decision to help the kids of the kid for us. and, but it's you recognize how absolutely, i don't know, i don't know whether it's called heartbreaking or ginger so scary that like it's been through these tendencies, have been drilled into,

to like create these hierarchies into your mind, the toy allies suffering. because you think and recognize that the audience is not going to be receptive to certain people and your, your race somewhere. you push them to the, to the back end of the video because you are pleading with a race audience. but you have to just, i think you just have to be honest about it as, as an activist or other. right. i mean, i was writing about another posting, an american citizen on us odd who was a, you know, blindfolded guide and left to die in the cold, into westbank. but is there a military? and i remember i wrote about this at the end of the essay. i remember that i had spent maybe an hour looking for an article that condemned that he was beaten as well because in the back of my head, it was not enough that he was blindfolded. and god, i need attempt to be beaten to in order for him to become public. now, i asked myself, what does that say about my psyche? what does that say about what has been done to my insights and it's, it's a scary question. there is a stark contrast in how we discuss state sanctioned violence compared to the

actions of those who are resisting oppression. i'd like to ask beyond issues of race, class and nationality. how are victims perceived when they choose to engage in armed resistance? what determines whether their actions are seen as legitimate or not. this is a country where some states have trespassing laws, like some states have sandra ground laws. i remember i was mind blown when i 1st heard of the idea that if you're standing someone's lawn, they can to suit you or something. so it, it took me a while, but i now realize that the idea that americans, europeans, simply don't understand resistance with the right to defend yourself, is simply a medical idea. it's not true, they understand. there's a sense. it's just that they don't like when we do it. who is the we? is it just palestinians as it as the brown people? i think it's people who. yeah it's, it's, i think black and brown people make up the vast majority of the demographic. but i

think it's people who express an empire because you know, and in, in the north of ireland, the, the whiteness of the iris skin did not really absolve them from the, from the vine and send it in and not, you know, we did not velo rice them as national heroes or resistance heroes when they engaged and under this sense, against the british empire. so you know, it's something to say, i think the majority of the population is black and brown, but i think it's anybody who purchased the empire. but yeah, and i think it's sometimes it's like, like you said, it's so staggering. it's almost comical. there was a i, i read about this one of the chapters, but it was like a study that was done by the new york war crimes, which is a collective that, you know, is not sparkplug newspaper. the threshold near times are comfortable, and they just did a comparative study of how a resistance and ukraine is covered the new york times. and how is it since impulse sign is and, you know,

the new york times glorifies the guerrilla warfare tactics of the ukrainians, glorifies and romanticize them, then blending in and out of the population wearing civilian clothes. meanwhile, that's called, it's called it when pulsing is what it's called it hiding behind human seals and so on and so forth. so the difference is, is staggering. but i think we must move past the, just the double standard and understand why the double standard applies. it's not the editors of the new york times are more on so, i mean, they are in my opinion, but it's not that they are ignorant of what's happening. it's that they are willingly and purposefully editorializing all resistance in a way to verify that you, you, in fact are highlighted example uh from uh cnn. when tv host cushion, i'm impor asks and is really author whether it's possible to hold 2 thoughts at once. then october 7th was the worst thing that could have happened and that everybody has the right to live with rights and dignity, including those cities,

which you've been quickly, javier by saying, and i'm not talking about him as you took issue with this. yeah. why? because of the so crazy, how do you my vision of 1st indians is saw normalized in normalized in in mass media. it's like you cannot imagine anybody saying that about any other political party in the world. imagine i said, you know, all americans deserve to live in peace and harmony. but i'm not talking about democrats. you know, that people will take an issue to that. but the, even a zation saying the policy and fighters are processing as well. even just support fighting deserve death. so normally they were, there was another issue or another. let me push back on that just a little bit. i mean, there are people who believe in the house any rights but causing some term nation, but take issue for political, legal, or moral reasons with the actions of some ass either before or after or on october

7th. is it inherently wrong to say, hey, i support the policy and struggle for self determination? i support posts, any resistance, but i don't support say, the kidnapping of civilians or the coming up of on aren't people or civilians where we define that because it violates international law, etc. and then you can make those mode, but that's not what i'm on for saying she's saying every bit everybody deserves to live. everybody deserves human rights, except the fighters of home us. she is rendering the declaration of human rights knowing conditional declaration of human rights conditional. i take an issue with that. it's one thing to say, you know, i have political issues or i would not have conducted myself in the same manner or certain actions is there certain punishments or whatever it is, but to just say wholesale, most people deserve death. it's simply racist. there was another instance on cnn when a group of journalists told this muslim journalist like he was saying something about

what's in that to me. it was like, i hope your paper goes off or something like that. and you know, there was a ruckus around the issue and then they clarified, oh, i saw you were talking about from us. and the journalist goes, no, no, no, i was talking as i'm support of the past and people, i'm nothing i'm supportive from us. as if him being a supporter of kind of to him having the political opinion or the, you know, just the preference the supports from us would say that it's ok to say that he deserved that this is the culture and the united states. it's okay to the port students where the political belief expel them for the political belief. it's ok to ruin the careers of young academics and younger writers and young scientists because of their political opinions in a so called democracy, that's a part. this brings me to the question of, of who's now reading the struggle and the story of palestinians. you could take the fact that is really human rights organizations is really a conscientious objectors or former israeli soldiers who decide to come clean are

given a kind of precedence over the words and the accounts and the testimonies of palestinians. can you explain what the danger is? of that arrangement, where is railways even while intention ones get the authority of narration over the house? yeah, i mean, i just stick god. bless them. first of all. yeah. but i take issue with the, with the premise, it's not that you are as a mainstream media ultimate interviewing this. this is rid of human rights organizations on the basis that it's a human rights organization. you're interviewing them because there is really 1st and it's the idea that the audience is already suspicious of focusing and it's supposed to business of arabs the suspicions of most loans. but it's not suspicious of his release. it's actually, it's actually finds a more credible. it's like the other, for example, becomes like bits of them. yeah. it's like what, why is it that it's okay. i'm not controversial for 4 bits and i'm to tell the new york times that is really sort of children,

but it's somehow unreliable when does really well in the pulsing administrative health says it or when a passing and when i meet or when i'm is on or help says that the issue here is racism. so if it, if, if it was like, oh, we're going to platform these testimonials on the basis of merit or on the basis of the content of the thought. somebody itself. i wouldn't take an issue with it, but it's the identity, terry and bases that rubs me the wrong way. it's not. we're interviewing this a story because he's actually, i know it's because he's do us and somehow that his jewish nest will make him more credible. and we do this to not just the, the, the mentioned organizations. we say this is really, attorney general says that is realism to parts. i'd say, well, i can tell you, i can name for your 10. i mean, i can't, but i could, you know, mentioned 210 is really attorneys on those who say no, actually this is a democracy. so then what the same in the same breath it is ready. officials can bring palestinians who will power their talking points. then what, what's to what,

and are we using these identities to advance our talking points when it should be a lot more methodical? it should be a lot more scientific to be, you know, things should be arguments and debates should be based. in fact, not who said us and who said that, i think that's, you know, that, and you want stated that quote, zionism is the leading cause of death in occupied palestine. it's interesting because you don't say these really government, for example, you say zionism, you don't say the settler, you don't say the military. you say that it is. why? well, it's the material manifestations of this ideology that have caused dust. and it's, you know, then actors of this ideology, the people who carry its baton or the settlers and the government. but i think it's the ideology itself that has created this roadmap of dispossession of displacement of, you know,

this leave for bureaucracy that kills bostonians with um, you know, fines and fees if not air strikes and bonds. and i, i mention zionism particularly because there's a dangerous conversation around the west. i think it's probably the only conversation about what design is a mean or what the sign is. i mean to certain people exactly, because some people would say, i repeat it by not for example, say i'm a cultural science, i oppose the occupation i pose apartheid. but i mean, i'm a cultural scientists. it's about the culture of symbols. it's a connection. it's an, it's a national identity. it's not about not because that's what not. and that's something like that. some people like some, i don't know if we would take someone who would say, i'm a cultural nazi seriously. all right. why is that that we make the exception for design as well? maybe not exception, but i mean, lots of them was a national project. it's just it was also abhorrent and disgusting and danger. well, that's a different so right. cause not to them would be rooted in something fundamentally

marley apart, where as someone design is a but judy isn't, isn't. and so what is there is no, there is no conflation between. i make no complaints on between side of the majority of them, but zionism explicitly isn't a boy in floods or the pioneers of linus. i'm have name to explicitly to be unimportant product of colonialism drop within ski hurts. so talk about stealing garlands. talk about cutting us talk about how binders is the only way they can make their national homeland. that's evil for how is that different from any sylvester national. i think the culture sinus would say yes that's political sign is a that's a problem. i'm just trying to find my jewishness and i don't have an interest in the settler colonial project. bytes. i really just, i think that's really i think it's irredeemably narcissistic, to see, but bombs, bombing bombs falling over a strip of land where people of the season say, actually this is about me in my, you're, you're misunderstanding me in my national and the sense,

given that the majority of israelis do identify design is do you think there will ever come a time where the conversation about the meaning of zionism will change, or at least the importance of having that conversation will become more urgent. i think the medium side of them is quite clear because a project is what it does like is you can you, i can tell you, design is i'm is an ice cream machine all day long. i was, and as i'm as adult machine because that does is what it does. it's not about what we define at the same way, like somebody could say, isis is, you know, a rebellion against something or whatever. but isis is not the isis is, uh, is, uh, is the movement of the headers, right? like, i can, i can describe myself is one thing. but what i do ultimately defines me, and i think the conversation should not be about the meaning of science. and because we've had a 100 years of, you know, of a sort of examples of what scientism as the conversations would be about. how do we

abolish design? is i'm in a way the absolves and saves as many as low as possible. you talk about how in the struggle for palestine liberation bearing witnesses, not enough on it. so what's your vision for achieving a collective liberation? it's really, really, really hard to answer like there's, there's a lot, but i think there are parameters where i think, you know, there needs to be in the distribution of well saying, i think there needs to be a recognition of what has been a reversal of what has been there needs to be the right to return the freedom to political prisoners. but it also what do you think of personal origin? i also think of global renovation. i think the past 15 months of i've shown us yes . by the students, particularly those in girls will bear the lumped edge of the occupation. but this project and the technologies of surveillance in repression and violence. that ethic

sports is something that will impact the majority of the world, particularly the poor among us. and so i'm not really concerned with ideas of like nationalism and not the most states and so on and so forth. i don't wanna get into that, but it's not to me. it's more about dignity, like it's, it's about saving materials, systematic a manifestation of dignity where people feel looking for that and also think, you know, and some interview and, you know, someone mentioned that freedom is having no fear. i think the highest, one of the variation we can achieve is, is also within our hearts where we are not afraid, not afraid of our own thoughts in our own censorship. and i think this is unfortunately the case for many persons who are not even under military occupation, but under an occupation of the mind here in this country and in other places in the west criminal court. thank you so much for joining me and upfront. thank you so much for having me. i appreciate the

the latest news as it breaks 1st, then zalinski has guides these international guarantee to step up all these deliveries to ukraine, particularly defensive with detailed coverage people with must department of government efficiency showed up here at the us is headquarters, demanding access to the building from around the world for the people, the one that any annual page has to be 10. it's the end of a painful chapter of displacement. the the

what is the effect of the conflict on the environment? the impact of war is so much more than just emissions from tanks ships and will fight more than will say it has a devastating effect on people. and the department of defense is emissions is as large as many countries every time. and if you're spending increases, military emissions increase and this war and this kind of christ, all hail the product on it does ita on counting the cost. what's behind donald trump's terrorist and could they trigger a global trade war? india is facing on its middle class to revive it's slowing economy, but we'll look campbell pay off. plus, how's the china taken the lead in the global race to a our terms in the cost on i will just say around the

colleges with the or hello, i'm several then. yeah, it's good to have you with us. this is the news our lives from bill coming up in the program today. c tears of joy, you guys that maybe occupied with 183 palestinian prisoners are reunited with their families. in the 5th ceasefire exchange with israel, 7 of those prisoners are taking their immediately to hospitals and medical treatments. many say they were abused in is really cost earlier,

i must release 3 is really captives who have since reunited with their families after a.