the kidnapping to children kill children main. um we have a massive catastrophe. share a one that needs more attention and one that needs and focused on skate. tourism industry has skyrocketed. in recent years, visitors from around the world are heading to the slopes, despite the security challenges that have long effected the region. now the largest resorts model on java has become the primary source of income for many who live in that area. sorry, go reports on the swat valley in northwest practiced on this is muslim job, the pocket stones lead public ski resorts. it's in the halls of the slots valley and nestled in the hindu kush mountain range. but seems like this once unimaginable in 2008, the result was destroyed when it was torched by the pockets. donnie told us much who want to talk shop at the time because the help of destruction of the resorts

left him with nothing. oh, the, when i was 18 years old, the result was destroyed and we lost everything. but now the situation is much better. i'm training to become a ski instructor, has transformed my life at westgate of in the use that followed piece for tom to the swapped valley. the pocket stony millet trees effort to regain control in 2009 paced the way for recovery. and now, taurus, but the local and international of looking to the area, the results is busy today on the soft palate. but since the attack in 2008, the number of international visits has, has quotes report to $200000.00 per year at nearly 3000 meters above sea level. it's becoming increasingly popular destination. for when to sports, there's a sense of ease among visitors. the muslim java, like a cra, he said for the 2nd time in just a few years. she's bought a whole family from karate, or the to know this area is very peaceful. there is no disturbance we visited for

years ago and we all visiting again because we enjoyed it so much. especially with our children. for the local community, the resort has transformed the livelihood in tale lol is a vendor who makes the quota pockets. donnie fried food, he says he relies on tourists visiting the region to make a living. one new i've got a got a lot of can must have a lot of very happy tourists come to my mom. java. it's good because it means my business is the only thing i have 5 children and i'm able to send them all to school. and it's clear that the tourism industry is flourishing, bringing benefits not only to the local community bots, to the why did national economy, sorry, go out to 0, muslim java park is done. okay. there will be more news coming up at the top of the hour, right. here on out to 0 but upsets it's upfront thanks for watching by the

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to hungary. authoritarian movements are rising in popularity across the globe for water. these movements gain traction in the 1st place. and do we need a fundamental restructuring of society this week and upfront? i'll ask those questions to nancy frasier, professor of philosophy and politics. evidence nancy frazier. thank you so much for joining us on upfront. thank you so much. and i really happy to be here. you talk about how the world is facing multiple crises, crises that can't be understood if we look at them as a separate or distinct. in fact, you said it can't just be a coincidence that the planet is burning up at the same time that police are murdering black men and women in the streets the same time that people are running from job to job. this is not a co incidence in this present moment. what are the threats that we face and how

are they connected? yeah. so i think of this as a general crisis of the whole social order of the whole civilization if you like. in other words, as opposed to a sec torrell crisis like an economic crisis or a political crisis, those things are part of the current mix. but there are others as well. a crisis of social reproduction or of care in a family life. a crisis of a racial oppression and injustice and imperial oppression. a crisis of democracy, a crisis of ecology. these are all happening at the same time and that's what makes it a general crisis. and then the next question is, are they separate? or are they all inter connected and traceable to one in the same social system? and i believe that that 2nd view is the correct view. there is one social system

that is very deeply irrational and perverse in many ways. and that is generating non accidental way for systemic reasons. and ecological crisis at the same time is a financial crisis, a crisis of livelihood, a crisis of political role and g, o political gemini, this is a very dangerous moment. crises like these are quite rare historically. they don't come along every day. we may have had 3 or 4 in the modern history of capitalism, by the way, but i just gave it away from capital one. i'm going to say this call is good. i'm going to do the drum roll is going to say, wouldn't be too simplistic to say that the single source of all of these multiple crises is capitalism. i don't think so. i, i think that it is. however, everything depends on what we mean by capitalism. usually people think of that as an economic system. yeah. and then it, if you take that view, then it seems like,

well, you know, then, then you're assuming the economy drives everything and you get an economic determinism. and that's problematic. i think that capitalism is the whole social order, and that part of what goes on here is that it separates, apparently, the economy from the political system, from nature, from family life and the social reproductive side of things from geo politics. the problem is the economy is allowed to prey on all of those things. it's allowed to devour care work. it's allowed to devour political capacities. it's about allowed to devour nature. in fact, more than allowed the system incentivizes large investors and mega corporations to help them. so wells, to all of those sources of,

of wealth and energy and so on to health themselves. and it gives them no responsibility, 0 responsibility to repair what they damage and to replenish what they change. that's what i mean by perverse. it's very perverse system in that explains the title of your latest book, which is called cannibal capitalism. how our system is devouring democracy, care and the planet, and what we can do about it. but the term cannibal, i thought was provocative term. i mean, it has a long history of on racist history. european colonial powers use that term to degrade into the humanize populations that they subjugated. i'm thinking specifically about the black african populations. you're going to be using the term differently though. uh, you're not using it to denigrate your using it, at least that vulnerable. you're using it to critique the capitalist class. why that term? it's exactly to turn the tables and say,

you want to talk about cannibals. who are the real cannibals? it's built the large investors, the mega corporations, and, and all of the, their political flunkies who do their bidding. they are basically sucking dry the wealth, health, energies and capacities of working people all over the globe. so we, we, the working people are being cannibalized by the capitalist class if you like. so i'm giving you a quote as a marxist, st brick set. but i'm expanding what i mean by capitalism, to take into account the relation between capital and nature, capital and care work and family, life, capital and politics, both at the domestic national level. and that's a geo political level. so it's not just an economic system, it's, it's

a system that puts all those other things at the mercy of powerful. i cannot say that, but let's drill down on the political part for a 2nd. there are viewers, we're going to say if you have a democracy, all the people have to do is vote against that. you vote against the law and must, if occasion of the world of vote against the idea that corporations don't pay enough taxes, vote against the idea that you know, that the wealthy won't have to pay capital gains. that all of the things that make it harder for everyday people. if everybody has a vote, why can't they just make different choices? yeah, this is a great paradox because i think everyone expected, when universal suffrage was introduced, that something like that would happen. and it should be fair, there have been periods, the social democratic, new deal era. and so one where something a bit better happened because of the, the votes. but the problem is, this of the,

another aspect of the political system, the political crisis, has to face as it has that governance problem. and then it has what we could call the head germany problem. the problem of a consciousness of common sense in, in the, you know, that there's sort of world views that people bring through which they interpret what's happening. well, you know, and everybody watching this knows that we've had this amazing a defection from what used to be the ruling common sense in the world that the neo liberal establishment parties, this huge rebel in which had some more emancipatory left dish currents at one point. but we have to admit is now dominated by various forms of right wing rebellion and populations, which are anything but a mass of

a tour. yeah. so, um these, these people are angry. they, they are reacting to, to the fact that government is not working for them. that their jobs don't pay enough that they don't have stable work, that they, they, they don't have time to, to, to raise their children in the way they want to, and so on. they're reacting to all of that. but with a very incorrect diagnosis of it. what's the problem is the diagnosis, right? yeah. people as you're pointing out, are saying that the government's not working are problems are not being solved by the systems in place, by the politicians in place, etc. and then they make choices, whether it's in italy, whether it's in hungry, whether it's in india, whether it's right here in the united states, they make choices toward right. when authoritarian models, why do they make those choices? why are those compelling choices? you know, people a well, i think a lot of it now i hear,

i think i have to double down a little bit on the united states because i know so much more about there. i think that um, with the exception of it in 2016 of the the attempt to build up the bernie sanders wing of the democrat with the exception of that they have had no alternative. yeah, there is no counter narrative that is saying the kinds of things that we are saying here. what was that the narrative is that the problem is that the mexican rapist, the muslims, the trans people, etc, etc. the undocumented immigrants. so the deep state work is, um, here's a whole elaborate account of what the problem is and people buy it. however, in logical it is not everyone but us. a substantial segment of the electorate in the us has bought this story. and where is the counter story then?

and, and the problem is that the dominant wing of the democratic party has now for 3 election cycles, done the exact same horrible thing, which is been to not offer as say, you guys are right, there is a serious problem. there's a serious crisis, but here's the real story about what causes it and what we have to do know, instead of that, it's oh, look what trump just said. look what trump just did. i think a big part of the problem is a lack of alternative. and then you would have to actually also figure in the sort of characterised my, of, of figure like trump more, moti or, you know, a lot of these people actually sort of, you know, they, they, they radiate a kind of, um, not only authenticity, but um, as you know that they're, they're going to really do something. they're going to fight for you. how does the

left not just the liberals, but the actual left mount a substantive response. we're building a alternative to what we have right now. well, um, basically i don't know that we even have anything we could actually called the left . what we have is a, um, an impressive but on coordinated a ray of right, democratizing and a mass of victoria or potentially emancipatory social movements and struggles including palestine solidarity including meat too, including movement for black lives. including certain strands of the radical ecology movement. and so on, so forth, ends and some interesting and important efforts to revive trade unionism organizing the on organizing. so these are from my, to my way of thinking, these are the potential building blocks of something that we could call

a historic or hedge, or monica block, the kind of broad political force that could very present itself as a credible alternative to the liberal, the liberal slash neo liberal way of the democratic party and the one hand and 2 my god and all of its counterparts around the world on the other. but for that to happen, and this is what i was trying to get in my book that these different potential constituent elements of, of this kind of a, of a force would have to begin to understand that it is again, that one in the same social system that is, at the root, what i'm trying to do is connect the dots in this and say to people, if we could all understand the way in which we are connected,

in this perverse way through this predatory social system. then we could, if we would have a different sense of who our real allies are and who are we, our enemies are because some of the social movements have been co opted by the liberal slash, neo liberal progressives. let's look at some examples of that for you. you connect some of those dots for us, quite masterfully, i think. but you give an example of how capitalism has historically exploited unpaid care work. house work, child rearing, elder care in, in the 1980s when women were encouraged to join the workforce at care work was outsourced often to migrant workers from poor countries. the result was what you call a tear crunch. what does that mean? can you explain what a care crunch is? yeah, um, several things are going on at once and it's the convergence that is, that makes the crunch. on the one hand, the old, a family wage ideal that

a male worker should be paid a salary large enough to support the whole family. said that the wife can be a full time house keeper and, and mother and, and, and care provider. that is dad. in the water, that's part of this neo liberal attack on the unions. the outsourcing of higher paid manufacturing jobs. the introduction of low wage, precarious service work, a whole different economy from the sort of a right forty's, fifties, and so on. so on. so people households have to work more hours in a paid work in order to maintain the same standard of living. second, cut back on public social services. that's also part of neo liberalization. okay? so these 2 things are coming together. that means much of a real time crunch. people don't, it can't, they can't afford their, their,

their wages are too low. they can't afford wild care to pay for himself. the public, a head start in kindergarten and all of this stuff is being cut and, and they don't have time to do it themselves. meanwhile, you have something else going on. you have the, an educated, more prosperous, professional managerial class of women becoming doctors, lawyers, corporate the exec, very demanding, long hours work. and they can afford to hire people to pick up the slack me. so where we used it mainly attract migrants, do agricultural labor and i still have a, a and restaurant work and so on. now, lots of migrant labor is doing domestic work either in for profit institutions like the old age homes or rehab centers and,

and so on. or in private homes, there's a way that this has been presented to the world, not as there's an expectation of labor from the global south. it's look at this new generation and class of women who can now have it all. who can now be corporate seals, who don't have to be bound to the, to the domestic spirit. they are leaning in and, and this is called feminism in many ways. exactly. but there's a connection between that and what's happening and capitalism total. it's totally connected. you don't have the quote unquote liberation of the, of the global north professional managerial class women without this exploitation or expropriation of margaret women of color from the global found it. and you get an example of companies that now offer a freezing to their childbearing employees and that many see this again,

it's something that's liberating that someone can now choose to have children later in life if they want to. but usually the fact that it's become commonly offered by big corporate firms as a strategy is a way of saying wouldn't have your kids in your forty's, your 50, that even maybe your success, the boy all of your a high energy, productive years, right? to us, right? but that's a very different way of thinking about yeah, that look, that's a, that's, that is a, um, a symptom of this care crunch. or that that, that women feel that they can't afford to have kids in the wave of the ages that people use to. and they have to go to these technological extremes. the other example i gave is mechanical pumping of breast milk so that you can work. and you know, still so called breast feed your child. of course, if that's really press reading, i don't know. but in any case this we're,

we're always, this is the us, we're always going for technological fixes to problems that really require a route and branch transformation of the underpinnings of the whole social system. you also talk about how capitalism usually relies on the pillaging of the earth, which has led to environmental degradation in that way. just recently they've had wildfires that have killed at least 29 people. not to mention 2024 was the warmest year on record. and over the past few years, the world of seeing catastrophic floods in spain, extreme heat waves in india, a tie fluids across, across east asia. in light of this, you have stated that in order to save the planet, we need an eco politics. that is anti capitalist. you call it a be equal social is a how we get there. well, how we get there. that's a very complicated issue, but i just want to say that i do believe that it is this predatory

relation to nature that is built into capitalism. that is so intrinsic to capitalism. that nature is just there for extraction extraction. exactly. again, as i said, for no responsibility to replenish or repair the border looks like differently in a socialist context. i mean, you still need to extract oil and gas and minerals, which is power devices we have in society. i mean, so yeah, it is in a different mode of production. right. so, i mean, this is again, a really interesting but complicated question. but the thing is that in capitalism, the incentive to trash nature is hard wired. in socialism, it is not hard wired, although really existing socialist countries followed the sort of possible path of trying to play catch up. and that's why they did plenty of damage. i'm not

saying they don't do damage, but that system doesn't require it in the same way that capitalism does. so. um, i mean, look, the answer is, is, is to the fossilized we have to transition and rather quickly to renewables, especially solar and wind and water. and we, we can't keep with the, the oil, the natural gas, the fracking, and, and all of that one has to build this bronze kind of political coalition that i was talking about before. if we can connect the dots and make that movement anti capitalist, if it will at the same time, be green, anti racist pro union and pro worker a pro people as opposed to prophets. and in green,

i look what, what the power we are up against is, is that it is enormous. you take all the mosques and, and the, and all the, the extractive energy industries and, and the automobile management. you take all of that. this is a, the banks on silicon valley. this is a huge mass of power. you cannot, you cannot win with them without a huge counter power. we need a very big coalition, but we need the right kind of coalition. it has to correctly identify what needs to be changed. and my argument is that none of these very urgent but different problems that people are reacting to can be solved unless we disable this dynamic of limitless

accumulation of wealth for capital. the explanation. how optimistic are you that will see a post capitalist society emerged as i go through cycles. i mean, a few years ago i was more optimistic than i am now. i have watched around 2016, the emergence, well, even with occupied going back to 2011 and the air of spring. and so i have watched movements that i thought had tremendous emancipatory potential. you know, sort of peter out or, you know, not achieve their, their goals and be hijacked and so on. and even in countries, but like spain and, and greece that tried to turn the, the occupier tight movements into political parties like streets and per day, unless they've petered out or, or been bought off or, or, or whatever. so this,

this moment is, you know, we're sitting here after the, the 2nd electoral victory of trump. with no decent alternative. i know that which is infuriates me really and furious me. but i don't think we should be completely swayed by the sort of mood of the moment and things got to have their ups and downs. we have to believe that there will be, uh, you know, a powerful movement for something better. i have to say that in this country i was very heartened with the that the depth and, and commitment of the palestine solidarity movements that develop. and it has been one of the worst experiences of my life to watch that crack down, that, that,

that vicious crushing of that movement. and so that's, that's, gives me for mendez, sorrow and, and, and anger both. but let's go back to my when i went to many often quoted lines from antonio graham, she's a great italian communist marxist, a thinker, right? pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will. yeah, this is important pessimism of the intellect after. well, because right now there's a lot to be pessimistic math if you think, but we, we have to somehow find that courage to yeah. and think, frazier, thank you so much for joining upfront. thank you. pleasure to be with you the the

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