shows join me matthew hudson with a live audience. here with conway home in london. i'll challenge from an kenyan politician kimani issue was on his government's bonnet of crack down on protest as and its failure to address rampant corruption allows fullness to lung. can president run over it from a single, about a full out from the civil war and the, the bombing coming soon from houses the whitening the walls of the past are for can leaders are seeking reparations from the former colonial powers? pointing to the enduring impact of systemic discrimination on global inequality of africa's on the development point. now, i'm more of that chances. this is inside story, the

hello welcome to the program. i'm adrian, instead of going out to decades of colonization exploitation and results extraction african countries want an apology, a paycheck. and then this of a $55.00 member african union blanca, meeting an out as of a to try to consolidate to position on repairs for justice. currently, there are all conflicts and mold in such the african states, the violence since they've done a democratic republic of congo in particular is likely to dominate discussions. so how realistic of the demands for former colonial power has to pay compensation? that is now the right time to be having this debate. we'll get to those questions shortly. but 1st a report from michael, apple repair, entry justice and racial healing following decades of colonial exploitation. on top of the agenda at the african union summit in ethiopia in capital, the lead is from across the continental or discussing how best to go about getting historical acknowledgements and reparations from former colonial powers. you're at

the $55.00 nation block, said hold on repair entry justice as the theme for this year is gathering at a time of upheaval on the continent to the prize scale. and then so it could, i could easy, single, why the reparations could take the form of financial compensation for involve investments and infrastructure education and health care to support economic development think is on financial assistance to africa very. but some estimates suggest development a to the continent, tops to trillion dollars over the past 60 years. but the african nations on looking for a handout. this is about writing the wrongs of the cost. suzy, p. o. p and prime minister, i'll be estimate the demand for the publishes is not about charlotte or

financial aid. it is a call for justice. it's 6 to restore the good, the degree of millions and the here, the deepest cost of poverty and equality and discrimination fault. i will financial compensation on a large scale is rare, but it has happened, poll marie to is a lawyer who represented survive is of the british crack down on mountain mile rebels in kenya. in the 1950s, they successfully claimed more than $25000000.00 from the u. k. government in 2012 . despite their success, he bones that legacy maybe on done the lead us to get the to office off by independence for relying the apple case. critics points out that africa needs to get its house in order saying corruption crews type

talk, receive decades long was, and lead is clinging to power, undermine continental development and progress. while others argue african countries continue to pay the brunt of a brutal legacy of exploitation. forced labor, culturally razor and resource x direction, all of which needs to be acknowledged and accounted for. mike level elders, era for inside story. let's bring in a guess from brussels. we're joined by frank, get it. so the system professor in the history of international relations department at utrecht university and all of the ideological scramble for africa and also in brussels. lillian from da confirmed and co director of african futures, action lab, one more. come to you both slowly and let's start with you. it's the 1st time that

the african union has put this issue of reparations from an center at a summit, but is now the right time to do so. and i thank you very much for inviting me. yes, i think that's the union has been putting these demands for the last 30 years now and i think europe what and you wrote it in countries in general has refused to dismiss these demands. so i think if we consider the shift, the court according shifting the global dynamics, i think it's, uh, it's definitely the right moment because i forgot is going to be the center of for these global in these global competition since it's worth. so it's resources are needed for the donation that each competing power is looking for. but with president trump a pending the global that is it, in your opinion, leaders interests to address the demands for justice and to pay reparations for

colonial era crime stuff. don't they have to any other issues to deal with right now, to what extent is will be a use cool. be a crying the dock. um, i think the, the changing that trump is bringing into the global dynamics are the impact in europe in terms of security who might impact your work in terms of insecurity and in terms of its political and economic donation. and i think it is necessary for europe and countries reconsider and dropping democracy to kind of re considerably it's and partnerships with the rest of the, of the world. and in that sense, if they want to reconsider the product ships with the africa, it is necessary to on the stands, these demands for justice of a great and the regulations that have been at the core of the demands for the last 2 years. frank, what do you spend on this?

is it the right time to be talking about this? i mean it's, it's always the right time to be talking about this, but i think it, it really depends on how african countries can sort of frame this in such a way that your opinion leaders will be willing to listen and the, the nato parliaments, which is sort of a governing body behind nato has actually put out a white paper in january that explicitly acknowledges that the global south africa, in particular, is not supporting european names. it's something that the war and ukraine has learned to bar a stop and european and american leaders is that they're not certain that african leaders will support their aims, or when the europeans are in trouble, that they will get that support. so i think it's, it's, it, it is as good a time as any, to sort of use that sort of diplomatic capital that has been accumulated during the ukraine crisis in the past few years. and forty's, asking companies to step up and say, hey, you need us, right?

you need us not only for supporting ukraine, but you also need us as our other. a guest is pointed out and you also need us for the climate transition, right? all these sort of minerals that you need for batteries and cars. if you want energy security, you will need us. so i think now is a good assignment. i need to ask for reparations. and to ask for a new relationship to be built between africans and europeans. frank, when we talk about repairs, treat justice. what exactly do we mean? i mean, so if, if i can jump in. so i think um there's like, i think in, in many ways the, the, that definition has been way too limited. if you look at what your opinions have done since 2020 right, since they moment wednesdays with the black lives matter as protests that erupt thing and in 2020. and this sort of call for the conversation and reparations are really gained momentum. india. okay. in france and belgium, in the netherlands and,

and the response has been, i mean, it has been, it's been committed, right. there's been a commission problem with the commission in belgium. there's been research and france has been sort of an official apology in the other ones. but then when it comes to reparation part many, it is your being countries then pull back, right, because that is when money is involved and then they don't want to sort of repair the past wrongs. and then the argument always goes, well, slavery is a long time ago. are we still response for the conversation? i think what is new about, or what is interesting about the, the strategy that the a, you as an output, ford is that they are coupling. and past issues of slavery past wrongs, they are coupling that explicitly to current demands for climate justice. right. and climate change is been that is a day to day issue that we're all confronted with. and i think that is um, that, that broader definition of injustice of how the past really shapes the present with

issues that are very, very front of mind. also for europeans like climate change like the energy transition. i think that's a very smart move to the defined is more broadly then it has been defined in the past. then should today's european ship, today's americans be held responsible for the crimes of the past. oh, absolutely. i think the 1st thing to keep in mind is that we're not talking about only friends of the box we're talking about in the qualities are i feel maintaining african nations in the african populations and in this situation of a injustices. so i think we in to, to, to compare, met with the my, the guess has just said we, we, there are multiple, the master. and the demands are that are, are targeting in new policies in terms of economics. so the reform of the global financial institutions, climate, reparations, they're also denies,

are concerned with the concern of the restitution of artifacts. but also i'm all individual levels. if we look at the, the situation of, for instance, the mix with children. and you know, on the fact that some countries, european countries, belgium, for instance, abducted children from african mothers in india quickly it's region and, and hasn't paid regulations for that. so i think there are multiple the notes and these demands are at the macro level at the community level, but also at the individual level. and i think we have to keep in mind that it's not only problems that have passed, but it's also kremser. feel a shipping lives and of the multiple communities and african populations. and the also to glad to ask for a, it's like a, it's one thing to make these demands. but it's not fully on on. definitely is a, as you said in your,

your excellent the guardian newspaper article on saturday. the coal for reparations isn't new. neither is the resistance to them from former colonial power as president trump has said that he doesn't see it happening. and many of us lead us of oppose even even talking about it as, as, as we foot has anything changed to suggest that those former colonial powers will be more sympathetic to africa's demands. if not, as i said about fee is, what's the point i think um, uh that the i was saying there is a shift in the, in the global dynamic of the power between the different different powers. and i think the position of sure of the fact that it has it was completely supported by the we with as a, as in my life, this position is changing and i think it is changing. europe is much more

vulnerable a compared to the past. that's a 1st thing. the 2nd thing is that the also, the position of africa is changing in the sense that even these competition it's uh, the resources that are needed are going to be central. so i think the changes that trump bring brings to, to, to these landscape can impact these demands for regulations and mix these coal much more necessary to police into compared to the past. cuz you said it's not all about financial compensation. but how do you quantify a what a reparation looks like? what would satisfy the, the, the african union countries? i mean, i think that's, that i think that should be one of the aims of this, of this conference that really trying to find what you know to mean putting a number on the sort of past wrongs i think is maybe a little bit of

a wrong way of, of, of thinking about it, but i think one of the, one of the things that conference should do is trying to think about how can we come up with a set of demands that are routed very much in the process. right. and i think the, the, the strategic choice to think about climate change. i have to think about that vision . i think though, is very concrete demand spar the way for, right. i think it's, it's a little bit more difficult to really put a number on the, what i mean, a number on the, on how much you would have to repair in terms of slavery. because there's so many individual cases involved. and that is, i mean, that is also one of the reasons why europeans have been able to sort of stuff their years and not listen. i think one of the great things about this meeting is that it actually is one of the 1st times that it isn't. one individual country asked me, its former colonizer to rectify fast browse. it is the, the, the continent of africa as one voice coming up with

a set of demands and then putting those on the table over and over and over again. and i think that is really excellent and excellent way for it because then you can then you can really reframe a little bit that better. what is that you want to do? but putting a number on those individual and i'm sort of bass robin says, prove it to be very, very difficult in the past as, as we've seen in sort of court 4 cases, right? when they're certificate individual lives. and people can sort of then show that they've been individually affected by the colonizer, then those court cases tend to be very successful. it becomes much more difficult, sadly enough, but it becomes much more difficult if you know if the ross and far more and directed at a community and then become more abstract. so we think that as such as very is very difficult. so frankly, if it's more about not making demands that the, the, the african union expects to be met immediately. it's, it's more about setting out

a clear roadmap for advancing the, the agenda on reparations. so i, so i see this demand for operations. and this present moment, i see this less as i mean i see this less as a, as an historically this sort of fits the pattern in which countries have come together when they've been faced with disappointments, when they're, when they ask for for economic justice. right. and so after independence in the store and right, so i think about this historically after independence. modernity economic development is really what is a demand of the europeans economic. ready is demand, and that is only partially met in the seventy's, a lot of a global. so countries come together and they form a new international, economic warner, and within the u when they formed this block in which actually quite successfully are able to demand a technology trends for

a funding for the modernization of technologies. but then because of that, that crisis in the eighty's that again collapses. and what you see now is, is this response again to the, to this moment of disappointment. where did the conversation discourse in the, in the, in the night in the 20 twenty's during the pandemic, and defend that make itself with all the qualities that came with the, with the provision effect scenes. and now these are from country that are coming together again to sort of try and form a block to ask for, for justice. so i think this, this, um, these demands sort of fit a much broader diplomatic pattern. i don't think you can at that, but i wouldn't see it is necessarily only as a reparations issues from, from the conversation i see does as a diplomatic defensive. that's what this is. this is an attempt to form a diplomatic block into you when outside of the you and the also weaponized as a future meetings, a future cult meetings to ask for climate justice where we,

right, we're all of these meetings and all these un meetings and all these international for us, we're africa is being just to us by coming up with a way, by acting as a block with one demand for one submission of what justice looks like. you can, you have a much better chance as good as getting the europeans to listen to you. so it was, it is more that the formatting issue then as a simple reparations issue coming out of colonialism. okay, let me, i, i saw your note again agreement that you want to come in on that. yeah, i think it's so 1st of all, i think african countries have a designated as a form of justice and reparation. so just with it, i think it's important to respect that phrasing a secondly, i think in 2022 the african union and many individual for kind of countries have come together and have a set up

a declaration with multiple demands of a nation in, you know, either the kindly, the issues the have to address the necessary to address the and which form of financial institutions you and security council. so i think there is a least of a very clear on the minds in terms of what needs to be repaired and how it is tied to the historical contemporary by showing justices. so i think it's uh, can we, can we start from the demands that have been there for these uh, for so many years and, and, and starting discussion from that because yeah, that it's clear. it's derrick. they have come together already as a big corporation. so i think it should be the starting point, the for one to to, to, to respect. also the voices from the student from the states and why, from the population liliana. i'm just gonna come back to the school. as i said, the erosion, the, the, the guardian newspaper on saturday about the effects of collodion,

that clearly some and slavery that are still being felt not today if you touched upon it earlier without the slave trade use you said a new article, quoting some studies africa today would be a development level compatible with asia and latin america. that's quite astonishing. is that? yes, it's quite astonishing. and i think it's uh many tend to forget that the, the, the development of your, of the development of the, of western states have, uh, has been built on the back of the older uh, the trays that have been on the center of the, of um, of slavery traded, so if we take all the, the system with the columbia system that have been put in place in the, um, from the, from the 15th century, up to the 19th century. is that how these a rocking states have been kind of is we have to, we have to consider the way that these different man is coming from. and i would

expect that has been done to uh to that, and it has been done for the african countries, the fact that their societies were completely destroy the destroyed to. so i think that's an important point. i think it's uh they have many economies studies that have been, that had shown these uh, inquiry folks. so it's not, it's not coming only from i forget which is love. i think we, we built this argument on the basis of africa, or do i tell them he studies. there had been done on this, this issue, frank portugal and slaved more africans than any other nation when it's president suggested recently. but that might be a need for reparations. a fall right party and portugal said that he should be charged with treason. the president of covered has said the right ring, populism and its effect on a motor at politics has made it difficult even to, to hold any kind of debate on the issue. is he right?

um yeah, um and he seems to be right. i mean, it seems to be very, very difficult to talk about reparations. and i mean, people are very willing to sort of talk about the past wrongs of colonialism but, but the, it is always an issue once the, once the, the problem of financial reparations comes of this has been, i mean, very clear. the country i live in, in belgium and had a pioneering role in setting up a parliamentary commission that then investigated and investigate the colonial crimes that, that belgium committed in it states call when you have the condo, it took 2 years to sort of come up with this report, a lot of historians were involved in, in setting up this, this report and eventually resolved also in returning some of the remains of the 1st prime minister of the congo, who was assassinated with assistance from the belgians and returning some of those

remains to add to control saw that, but um we, the, the, the, the apartments refused to get a formal apologies out of this year. fear that financial that there would be financial consequences connected to that and to that apology. so if you, if that is the base position is, is that is, is that as a starting position and this sort of an added, which we've seen since, i mean the election of trump and, and also other european countries. and the increased popularity of right wing parties, but even more right wing discourses and that makes it only harder to sort of get to that place where reparations become an acceptable form of, of policy, of foreign policy. and so, so yes, absolutely. does that the more popular extreme right wing voice has become more difficult is going to become for even moderate european leaders to,

to i think so listen, series demands from african leaders. okay, lillian, as we said this is the 1st time the african union has put the issue of reparations front and center of the summit. is the danger that this call for justice and reparations for post colonial era crimes will detract from what many would argue a far more pressing issues like the conflicts ensued on, on the democratic republic of congo. i think it is important to also try to consider the fact that many of the contemporary applicant complex that we are seeing now had their roots in the, in the, in the, in colonialism, in the ways in which the populations had been separated. the states have been, uh, have been uh, be able to have been constructed. so i'm sure that if you want to address the complex to contemporary conferences in africa today,

we have to look at their colonial reasons, foods, and avoiding looking at those words. well, we're not necessarily find the right solutions, so i will think it's a way to to deviate the discussion on these conflicts. i think i the opposite. i think we have to consider these clearly a past in the way to shipping the contemporary societies and impacting them and preventing 20 rapid with peaceful and dropping societies. and in that sense it is so it is a form of bar and of facing. and these challenging situation and indeed are see, but it was so you know, and so down front would you agree with that? what would it take for this summit to have been deemed a success? i mean, i would absolutely agree with what literally i said, um, i think this, this summit is doesn't get in many ways an opportunity to, to bring african leaders together over these over these issues. right. the, the,

the whole problem around goma and the rwandan influence in, in the east of congo. and that is that entire issue is rooted in colonialism in the failure of the belgians to the right. properly, properly, the colonizer, just get out of the congo in a normal way. and so i think a lot of african leaders would agree on that analysis. and i think it wouldn't bring a lot of leaders who would normally not want to sit in the same room at this point because of all these issues and issues and the modem we thinking about going on. also thinking about the, the flurries we've had of cruise in the west of africa in the french west africa. and that the only thing is we normally wouldn't want to sit in a room together. it might bring them in a room together and they might also start talking about other issues. so i think the summit and someone will definitely be a success, is they've the african unit,

again come out with a very clear definition of what they want of what reparations need of how they want to define this and how they want to mobilize this into the full amount of defensive, and i think the, the, the outspoken aims here, the silent aims here is also bring people together in a room who have been in conflict for quite some time. so maybe also start talking about some other issues that we understand that manufacturing day 2 of us, frank get, it's lilyann, i'm a big i am. thank you for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the website that was a 0 dot com for further discussion, join us a facebook page. you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash h a inside story. and you can join the conversation on x, i'll handle that as as age right inside story for me, avery, instead of going out of the team here. and so we'll see you again, bye for now, the

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the hello, i'm real about this and this is news on life in doha, coming up in the next 60 minutes released from his very presence, hundreds of palestinians return to gaza. as part of this, these 5 deal with pompous can be of service events. we were being tortured, it was such a difficult time. we can't find the words to describe the .