means the way that is this a global issue is abstract, so whatever i do, it doesn't seem to make a dent. alley re reveals how with being and if you liked it into distancing also from the climate crisis and delaying meaningful actions outside the logical reactions has been both intentionally and unintentionally quite a few ideas to create confusions. if we're confused with the power of psychology is looking climate action on out to 0 called the trans atlantic alliance, full of pops. many new leaders have rejected the us mice, president's criticism of democracy, all the consummate trade events quoted the question how that countries a government. so can europe still count on washington? this is inside story, the hello welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan. a rift appears to be developing

between europe and its long time allied. the united states, us vice president j, the advanced strong delegates at the security conference in munich when he lectured europe on what he described does its retreats from free speech and shared values. his comments have been widely denounced as middle some of the unacceptable. so where does this leave transatlantic relations build top of a decades of to world war 2? and how could you respond to a reversal of washington's isolation? this stance towards the workshop. we'll get to those questions in a moment, but 1st a report from michael option when you it's vice president. katie von took the podium at the munich security conference. he just i hope that's not the last bit of applause that i get, but we, we gather it was so now he struck a combative tone in a speech watched by stony faced european leaders and military bras,

and their enemy, he told them, wasn't russia or china what i worry about is the threat from within the retreat of europe, from some of its most fundamental values value shared with the united states of america. things don't. he took a swipe at mainstream german political parties who refused to work with the old, tentative for germany party because of its fall rights empty immigration policies. and even accused european lead is of silencing nic critics. not so many of us on the other side of the atlantic. it looks more, more like old and troops, interest hiding behind ugly soviet, their words like misinformation. and this information from the leader of europe's largest economy. and the 2nd biggest contributor to nato unequivocal rejection of on says comments on the state of democracy in europe. these stuff that's just small online,

certainly not amongst friends and allies. we resolutely reject this is where our democracy goes from. here is for us to decide to germany's defense minister also took exception to the vice president's remarks when he, what is the 1st done if i understood him correctly, he compared condition to points of view of with those in or far terry and regimes. ladies and gentlemen, that's not acceptable. now back are not valid across the atlantic. the man whom von said represented in munich was full of praise. for he made a very good speech, actually a very brilliant speech. go your best to be careful. thank you all. good luck to all of you. a speech that is set in motion the fracturing of a decades old alliance that could well be on the brink of collapse my to level l g 0 for inside store the that spring. and i guess joining us from the

drum and capital is jessica berlin and residency the a fellow at the trans atlantic defense and security program at the center for your p and policy analysis in washington dc. is benjamin freedman, the policy director at the american foreign policy, think tank defense priorities and also in berlin is out i phone k, the germany director for rasmussen, global a geo political advisory fumble. welcome to you. we'll hold off. let's start with you. you are in the overflow room in munich, along with some pretty high, high profile attendees. what was the reaction to the speech both during an off towards what, what, what delegates saying about it. and it's almost every one was. so most of the people were quite confused. so because everyone expected the vice president vance, to talk about ukraine, about security, even the chairman of the munich security conference. and i was in public radio early in the morning. he's expecting the vice president to um, to announce that to you as will withdrawal troops from your all and so on. and then

he didn't touch up on foreign policy at all. so you could see it literally in the room that people were looking for a right to lift and wondering. so what's happening, what is he talking about? so, and it took a while and the people then were left in a mix of confusion. um, desperation i would say that word song because there were some news i had of his speech that people were already spreading the information that he will not actually talk about foreign policy instead on putting domestic policy in specifically addressing germany, which is going for elections next weekend, so in this regard you could also see the reactions later then from, from the chancellor and even the, the, the federal person who spoke right before j events already kind of has and says anticipated what he might say. and the reactions were quite. yeah. so people where you can see the big question marks in the room say ok,

what does that mean actually for trans authentic partnership? um so that was mainly the move in the room when i was there. so what, what people, what read um, was there a sense perhaps that, but people thought that that's the vice president and his boss of living in some sort of parallel universe. yeah, that's pretty much so and so my conclusion from, from this was okay, so we've, so finally the domestic debate in the u. s. on freedom of speech, which he addressed the question and all really just the question. and then i'll sense or shifts are all over something unhappy brought on a global level and, and all of a sudden. so we, they realize ok, this is not the classic transatlantic feel, partnership and indefinitely. not the way as it used to be in munich. so i'm going to to the men executed conference in 15 years and we have never seen something like that. that we had seen vice president towns in, in munich. and there were differences when we discussed foreign policy and security

policy issues. but there was never ever a question that we might have different definitions when it comes to freedom of speech. democracy. what constitutes all these values we used to, to raise during these conversations, saying, okay, this is all the value based partnership, the transfer the commission and they do everything. so, and all of a sudden, so it's mike, someone is actually pulling the plug in saying, okay, so this is not any longer the basis actually, and the terms of services we operating on. so we have a complete different says, and as you said, so kind of also we have a different definition which is completely offside from want anyone in, in euro, basically what defined those terms. jessica, what paul's defense doing with that speech was he speaking directly to the public back home? did he totally misjudge the move to the room? or did he genuinely mean what he said about your having an enemy within those accusations of free speech being and retreats?

anyone who was surprised by j to events of speech has clearly not been paying attention to donald trump and his team. for the past 5 years. i have no idea how european leaders could come to the conclusion that change events would come to munich and suddenly be a different vice president. then he's been on the campaign trail and in the white house for the past year. so his audience, 1st and foremost, as always, is domestic and foreign relations are not the priority of the trump administration . their goal is to win for themselves, whatever that means in whatever arena they are. so the hands ringing and the shock and surprise we've seen coming out of munich, is really for me just indicative of the lack of preparation and strategic thoughts and action on the part of your plan. leaders to prepare for what we knew was going

to be a much more erratic seconds. trump administration. we saw what happened the 1st time around and we've had plenty of time to prepare for an incoming administration that would have fewer guard rails and so called adults in the room. so this should not have come to a surprise for anyone. and also it should not be reason for panic. trump always uses extreme statements to test the room, test the waters, see how people react, and then he adjusts his follow up strategy accordingly. and by freaking out over these statements that were so shocking and surprising for the people in the room, they're actually showing their hands, they're showing weakness. and this will only inspire trump in his team to keep pushing on without them. and to think that they can push your up into a corner when what really needs to happen now is decisive action. they concern the situation around by showing the trump warehouse that you're

a business fact capable of standing up on its own soil and defending european peace and democracy. benjamin, do you agree with the to what extent was frances speech intended genuinely intended as a wakeup call to europe, a, a hub kick with germany's a jimmy itself about to, to hold a major election was here some of the accused and of middling, in his european allies political affairs, it wouldn't go quite that far to say he's meddling uh or even that he's trying to support the far right in germany directly. i think the people like bands are genuinely angry about the way to term misinformation has been weaponized in us politics. and i think he's exporting that anger to munich with this speech. and you know, there's a lot of resentment, i think, built up behind it more broadly. about the difference in values is he discussed

with, with europe, but i think the hobb park receive ought to be raised here. i mean, the trump administration right now is engaged at a sort of multi pronged attack on american democracy. and i don't say that lightly . i don't like alarm is terms, but you know, they're shutting down a federal prosecution of a presidential ally in new york city, which violates the history of d o. j. and the, the sort of a hands off approach presidents of taking their, uh, legally you start being congressional spending power, the power of the purse in various ways they're firing illegally. i think inspectors generals in, in washington who have the oversight capacity in the government. so uh, the backsliding on democracy is taking place in law. i figured, i mean, you know, judy vance was right. i believe, to criticize romania for shutting down an election over some russian propaganda

tick tock, videos. but he's working for a president who doesn't admit that he lost the 2020 election and tried to steal it . so the, the hypocrisy is so that it's hard for me to say anything else about it it's, it's kind of shocking to me. but clearly, you know, i think it did have the domestic political audience 1st in mind i mean offending the. ready overflow room with all due respect to all of his sort of i think it intended at the munich security conference is the sort of intended outcome of vance of speech. jessica: oh, that's why i saw you both nodding vigorously that all of us will come to you before we we brought in the discussion out to transatlantic relations in the future. more generally, i just want to ask you one more question about bands to speech was, was that intended you think is a riley and cried. so the likes of all the lonely le pen? germany's a f d? yes, exactly. so has been said. so this is the, and this is important to understand. this was

a connection between the domestic agenda and i would call it the mission. maybe even you can't call it the crusade because he was, he was all these religious references. he used in his speech a very, very unusual and unlikely for an european audience. so he gave his prayers at the very beginning to the victims of the attack. we have seen in munich the day before . so usually a statement, even though the president you would give us condolence. so and that that was something actually you could see. okay. do, as jessica said, so they that taking the agenda are on the domestic politics. but they have an audience here. so it's not the people in the room where the people actually see a q section. you have been excluded like the german of the party. so the chairman had excluded them because they were opposing peace talks with the russians between the ukrainians. but we haven't all the 27 europe in government or countries of the open union. we have parties like who, who actually all would share very much the gender of this administration in all the

terms. and it would love to do the same with the democratic institutions as well. benjamin, just to describe this happening in dc. so they don't believe in democratic institutions . they don't believe in free fair elections, or in fact checking they call it censorship. but it's actually just the context realizing of information, but the have a power lo, truth. they want to make people belief in and this audience is growing. and so in this regard, i would say this was also a mobile call for actions for the like mine. it's in europe actually now to not to be scared by all this a censorship as they called and, and all of these regulatory measures here, but actually taking the stage and taking the power and yeah, rolling the institutions as they are just demonstrating how it is and in dc, jessica, i think we've already established this but to the use foreign policy chief kind of catalyst was rights when she said the parents was trying to pick a fight with you or where will this lead transatlantic relations?

and there is no need to pick a fight over this. as i said before, judy vance didn't say anything, we haven't heard him say before in other contexts, the european response here needs to be to perry. this thrust don't to react to the narratives of a breach and transatlantic relations and stop handling. we need to recognize that ever since russia's full scale invasion, there has been this threat and divide. and ever since the trump indicated that he would have a 2nd run at the white house, this threat has been on the table that a i salacious, america could return. so we need to move with his moments and remind american republicans who are pro trunk, but also deeply anti russia and antique china. that our defense relationship and our economic relationships are much more important than this current domestic

political moment that the united states. and there are a lot of folks in washington right now who are wearing margaret hats, who's still know who the enemy is. and by over reacting to extreme statements from the white house team, i think your p leaders are missing the macro of what's going on here. we need to maintain those ties and to strategically offer the trump administration winds, whether that's through trade deals or increased european defense spending, we need to start meeting some of the priorities the white house has demanded from europe for a long time. and especially on defense spending, frankly, so to show that we're serious partner, but it's the only thing in response to defense of speech that comes out of europe is lectures and moralistic condemnation of his comments. then i think we will see an increase in this kind of rhetoric and also an increase in the bi lateral communications between the white house and the kremlin. then do you agree with that?

i mean, the one thing that the j defines did say, and that's, that's page that many european leaders cannot disagree with because they've been saying it themselves is. but that you must step up in a big way to provide for its own defense in the future. as well, uh, i don't think that the trump administration cares that much if europe steps up or at least i don't think they should, might do is that the united states do less to the fed europe far labs and they should let the europeans decide for themselves what they want to do in that event, i don't think the russian threat is that big country to a lot of what you hear. we see a new crane, the russian military sort of bogged down by a far weaker opponent. so, you know, they're not coming from poland, they're not coming for western europe in the united states is, could safely do a lot less for europe and the europeans can safely say, well, maybe we, you know, want to continue spending a lot more on a social welfare programs than defense, i think that's their right and we don't have to tell them what to do. i think it's

just important for the us that we you know, reduce our own risk and costs. and while we're at it, try to get the ukraine ward shuttled. i think so, i'm very sympathetic to the trump and ministrations agenda in that area. but i think the picking cultural fights with the europeans, well, might be satisfying for van some trump, and even political useful for them in some ways at home. isn't uh helpful to uh, having a you know, a friendly but more distant relationship from a defense and military perspective. oh, that 40 make of, of this will be us. do you think aggressively reduce its forces presence in europe during the, the during come trump's term. but what should your be doing now in terms of its own defense capabilities to support its support for ukraine and the threat posed by

russia? you know, i think we definitely will see a reduction off of us troops and they'll just within the trunk turn bug within the next 2 weeks. so that was actually what people were expecting from from vance page . and i think as we just auto creates, so this was the disruptive moment who used to surprise the audience with something completely different. uh, and the and distracting actually found the topics that europe should discuss. so this was a, as i said, a wake up call for the global off of the european rights to, to raise up. but it was also a wake up call for the europeans, as jessica rightly said, actually to finally get their act together. and, and it was quite remarkable that the woman in chief who gave the best speech in terms of, okay, we need to be of all our defense spending and bring all the uses as a walk. the talk actually was president zelinski. so he gave a speech actually in which everyone in this room or during the conference and all the floors actually agreed. okay,

this is the kind of spirit other european leaders in the within the european union should have demonstrated on stage say, ok, this is now the moment. so we're talking about this for 20 years and nothing has happened. so president obama had said it is very mildly friends the way that our president, by then has said it to the europeans and still nothing has happened. and all of a sudden there was this kind of urgency, you could feel do it in, in the conference or saying, okay, so maybe now we need to really do something. and yes, and not for the sake of remaining a good relationship to the us. but actually for our own interest, because uh yeah, so we don't know what, what putting this up for, but at least actually, so the best way is to be filed. we are talking about 4 years now. jessica, on witness to us. the secretary of state, pete, texas, the board, cold water on the prospect of fully operation for you. great. and then we have the speech on friday, right?

event saying that us troops in ukraine, stay on the table with russia. doesn't negotiating. good faith. what are we to make those apparently a contradictory statements? it is precisely how it seems to keep russia and europe under toes. the white house itself doesn't yet have an end came strategy for this war. so they're testing messages. they're watching reactions. and also, as we know from the 1st trump administration, president trump himself can be quite erratic and change his mind on directions on topics based on more or less, who was the last person in the room to give him advice. he goes with his gun sometimes. so the fact that american messaging in the past week has flip flopped so dramatically is actually good news for europe and should be reminder that nothing is set in stone. and that european action can still greatly influence the trajectory of the trump administrations, narratives and rhetoric. but by passively just reacting with statements,

it keeps pushing in the kremlin much more opportunity to shape events. i don't think we need to read too much into the statements of this week because everything at the end of the day will depends on what we do. and not what is said. and last but not least, no matter what statements come out with the white house, they do not dictate what the ukrainian government military and people will decide to do. ukraine is a sovereign nation of democracy and their action in this war. and how they determined to engage with russia or maintain the site will not be determined by a statement from the white house. but the written moscow is putting more money into its military than the whole of non russian yorba spending on defense. according to the international institute for strategic studies, how does you get past the fact that it's been unable to reach a consensus on the threat? the russia pauses and what should be done about it?

a well one. uh, i would like to check that statistic. i'm not sure. uh, no rush, it was last i checked, rush was pretty far behind, non, non us nato on defense spending in total. but it's in real terms that is felicia, that adjusted the actual spending not percentage of gdp, but, you know, the bottom line is, i think that the europeans would be more unified against the russian threat if the russian threats were more clear to them. and i think it's still, you know, as bad as the war and ukraine has been, i think we're seeing real limits and russian military capability there. and as much as we hear things to the contrary, there's not a lot of evidence that ross is interested in some broader war. sort of trying to sweep into western europe like some napoleonic power like it or something like that . so it's, i think, clear to people. ready who are being sober about it,

that the russian pride is rather limited and that's undermining the, the ability of europeans to organize against. oh, that's uh, i need a reason of the brief onset here. if you can give me one, does europe have the results is to protect itself without us assistance? yes, of course we have. so the thing is we have a diversity of weapon systems, which is an insane sort of, we finally actually would agree on which country is covering, which resources would be way more effective and impactful also. but this is not actually for the europeans to really talk serious amongst themselves. ok, it's jessica is nato facing an ex essential thread should be it perhaps be be looking to open its doors to new members, be owned europe and north america. if the us uh, withdrawal, as i suppose its financial assistance towards europe or at least what is it it down on? how should they so do that nieto is definitely facing an existential crisis. i think

in the near term what will be much more likely and effective may be for sub coalitions of nato members to agree quickly amongst themselves. what kinds of strategic concrete actions can they take together? we've already seen a nascent nordic baltic polish british coalition. start to form there and discussions about joint financing and setting common targets together because they understand the russian threat very well. i think the idea of expanding internationally is definitely something that will be considered for the medium and long term. but as long as america is still a member of the alliance, any move to do so would be incredibly cumbersome. and i think 1st, nita will be trying to handle with the tools that they have internally. and like i mentioned, having the sub regional coalitions form on specific topics. but the, the message is clear that nato needs to change and reform for the future. and on

jessica, when we spoke to you before the program, you said that, that an existential rule for the future of europe is on the way right now. what did you mean by that? the only disagree with our colleague in washington about the level of the threat from russia. what's not at risk here is russian tanks rolling through poland. it would be much more likely a combination of cyber attacks on critical infrastructure combined with the targeted strikes by a long range missiles on critical european infrastructure. russia has openly stated that they are looking to destroy the western alliance, and in particular, to destroy the countries who joined to your opinion, the nato, after the end of the cold war and escaped from russian colonial subjugation. this desire to return to the past is not just the radical. they are backing it up

with guns and blood. and when i call that an existential threat, it's because it's precisely this, you're at a turning point in the 21st century. we have had peace for almost 80 years now. are we willing to put it at risk to appease a dictator and out of fear of the future? we have to find the same kind of courage that europeans found in the 19 thirties and fourties. it took time to build consensus. it took time to get the americans on board. but fascism was defeated in europe. and we're now in a new turning point in european history, where it's on us to recognize the threats as to behave with urgency and react of the we must have that many thanks. indeed to you, old jessica, berlin benjamin friedman at old off blanca. thanks for watching. you can see the park and i get it any time by going to the web site. that's all just 0. don't com for further discussion, join us a facebook page that's at facebook dot com forward slash a inside story out. of course,

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