i saw i used to think about working in the video like not sound good enough. so that's a small step of science jointly for women kind and kind of start the but the only place it inside and that's a scheduled time. the satellite could be suggested to space. women make science space school, episode 5 on out. is there a meeting on ukraine without ukraine president flooding this? so that's key criticizes tolts between the us and russia and saudi arabia. while donald trump claims t for the war, the kremlin says vladimir putin and trump allow me to talk again soon. so what does all this lead you crazy? this is inside still the

hello again on chains, phase high level us and russian delegates gathered in saudi arabia's capital to discuss the war. the 1st meeting of its kind in 3 is bought. ukrainian, i'm european union leaders want invited. ukraine's military is reliance on us weapons to fight russia's invasion. president trump's decisions are putting teeth on the increasing pressure, making it feel it's little mold in a bargaining chip. ukrainians, one piece, but not at any cost. meanwhile, present pollutants seems to have already divided the u. s and e u crating, the worst fracture and the transatlantic relationship since world war 2 rushes, diplomatic isolation is out of us. so is it time for the european allies to great new economic military strategies? and was, it will mean for ukraine will be asking those questions to our guests in a moment. but 1st, this report from alexandra buys, for many people watching around the world. an extraordinary change and relationship

senior officials from the us and russia together. i didn't negotiating table for 4 and a half hours in the saudi capital on tuesday. the 1st meeting of its kind since russian forces invaded ukraine 3 years ago, the law campaigning for the presidency. donald trump said he would end the war blaming keys for starting it. this could have been settled very easily. just a half a half baked negotiator could have settled this years ago without isaac, without the loss of much land, very little land without the loss of any lives. neither the ukrainian president nor european leaders were invited to the meeting and re add a move that's angry to many lot. i'm yours 11. see postponed a plan to visit to saudi arabia on wednesday, saying he didn't want to with jeremiah as the topics both sets of flu. i approached and uh no, but all of this definitely doesn't have

a positive impact on you crap. the less inclusion allison violations and i think coaching and russia, i really happy because they're involved in discussions. and yesterday there was signals the day of the victims. that's something you even so the us is pushing ahead announcing plans to create teams for peace talks. washington says it will continue consulting keys and brussels, but direct negotiations will only be with moscow. and this made clear that all options are open. in order to bring an end to any conflict, there has to be concessions made by all sides. we're not going to pre determined what those are. the us has floated russia, keeping ukrainian territory. it seized the lifting of sanctions on moscow and its re admission to the g 7. and the blocking of ukraine's long sought membership of nato. but i'm used to go because the president trump was the 1st and i think the only western leader as publicly and loudly said that the one of the root causes of

the ukrainian situation was the input in line of the previous administration to draw ukraine into nato. no western leader has said that, but he said it repeatedly of those the kremlin and the white house, say a meeting between presidents, trump and putin, is planned for the next month or 2 all while the war continues on the ground. after 3 years of fighting, it's officially claimed $150000.00 lives, but international monitors degree, the actual death tool is likely to be much higher. alexandra buyers, alj a 0 for inside story. the. well, let's discuss all this further with all guess today on the program in washington, dc and a to leave and director of the racial program at the quincy institute and a member of the file club, the russian think tank and most andre colton of political analyst also and full met

director general of the russian international affairs council. and it doesn't go off in germany. mateo nellis political analyst and see of the german ukrainian bureau a think tank. thank you all 3 of you for talking to us. a pretty important developments with regard to ukraine and the toll. let me start with you. how significant is what we seen in riyadh, not just for ukraine, but for the global or whether it's an immense significance. that's it seems that the trunk ministration wants to bring russia back into some form of a new security architecture in russia in europe. i mean, if that can be achieved, it would be transformative because this is something that's russians. i'm not just russians. i mean many europeans as well as hope for since the end of the cold war, but you have not achieved. but of course, um, this depends on the success of the peace negotiations on ukraine. and

there is an enormous amount which is still not clear. i'm certain things have been decided or rather actually just recognize because they've been, it's clear so many years such as a new credit in neutrality. of course. so many other things about the details of the oven, eventually piece of them and remain totally unclear. and we still don't know for sure that such a supplement can be a treat. andre, this meeting last is just over 4 hours. but how important do you think could be the repercussions going forward as well? uh, judging from the initial reactions that we cover the seats here in the most cool uh the solution uh, seals, uh, more or less, uh, uh, heavier, with the outcome, all of this meeting, of course. so these opportunities is qualified, so they don't want to inflate public expectations. therefore they argue that we are

just in the very beginning or forbid along the road. and they also emphasize the importance of change and the bi loved to relationship. specifically, the relationship between the united states and the consideration, a lot of emphasis is put on the reservation of the diplomatic dialogue. and i think that on the ukrainian settlement there is probably less up to missile and less information that there are some side uh can share at this particular juncture. i'll try again and you're using to suggest that playing it rather cool in moscow. but this must be very good news for, for polluting, and his government. well, you know, again, you know, i don't want to say that to remove the east pessimistic about the, the clear to tied to manage public expectations. not so create an impression that we're moving towards a new reset

a but the overall or the action that is clearly positives. and this is a very radical departure from the earlier comments on the u. s. foreign policy. and even though the following policy all the time, but ministries, okay, not to you, they are worried about this. i think it's fair to say where you are in germany and across western europe, a quote from a joint you've lived in the form of a french foreign minister. it's a reversal of the state to the will since 1945. would you agree with them? i certainly would agree with that and we, europeans, we just are taking it back by the astonishing speed or what appears to be the normalization of the russian federation. again, after pretty use or intensive diplomatic pressure by the sanctions military, supposedly ukraine recede of the ending of the united, you know, wisdom prophets to bring about. and then to this war and ukraine and of course talks a sense we're to be expected. but then no happening that i wouldn't call them negotiations

here. these are talks between russian america over the heads of the premiums over the heads of your things. and that is certainly warring for us and raises alarming and loving amount of questions. and that's all, i'm excuse the pun, but trump has already given away some of his trump concepts and t, here in terms of the negotiation. first, just the fact this to the folks took place at this level of the over 3 years. this effectively ends russia's per ah, status ends, its diplomatic isolation. well, i wouldn't say that all of those tools have to take place at some stage and unit time is also in ukraine sides. and this will, i'm going to, the russians are advancing the ukrainians are suffering very vasily. um, there is a risk that we don't know how heavy budget has been discussed by western end of this of ukrainian collapse. so if you're going to decide on piece talks there's, there's no point in the spinning the mag to might as well, you know, stop them as

a high level and get home with them. but i think will also some of these european see is a great key, exaggerated. i mean, uh, it's from 1945 to 1991 ukraine was parts of the soviet union. and soviet forces were in the midst of germany on unit 50 miles from the ryan and the french folder. i mean, this thinking that we're going to go back to that uh, this will end with a it came from ice, a z u cranes. by the way, i think it's also west say that, of course, any imaginable stuff with no, i mean, unless of course you creighton does collapse complete team and that's how really will be fall far short of what preaching out for when he wrote this invasion in 2022 of those in terms of controlling for ukraine,

but also in terms of nature refreshing territorial ambitions for the tall but on that. so he keeps, we think at least some 3rd treat, possibly all the territory. so his invasion is being rewarded. that is a loss of principle that we normally happen in, in international law, or is it, i mean, the un charter says you're not allowed to evade other people's countries. so what did we do against stuckey when it's invited cyprus in 1974, did we even expand it from native? no, we did not. but i mean, the thing is if you want to expelled russia from the tire trans has taken the ukrainians, have to wait on the back and sealed and drives the russian side, which they come to. and if they go on trying to do it, they would eventually destroy themselves. or of course, we can go to war with russia. but every nation of government, including the bite and administration and all of your pin. so set the window, can you do that? so at some stage, one simply has to recognize reality. let's have your take on that. recognizing

reality, that's what's going on here. but the yes, again, these with tools with no ukraine. okay. sorry, the very, very 1st round, but no ukraine even invited to the tools. i fundamentally disagree with, and that's all here because this war is not just about ukraine, it's about, you know, the european piece, florida reached out nowadays and tractors, obviously. and if to reward russia by accepting maybe even the you are accepting for some, you can't accept the occupation of annexation of some of his territory territory. so it would completely destroy the what's left of the european piece order. and it's more, it's not just about your questions about the, about us, it's about principles of changing boat as by force. so that's why it's important to repel the russian aggression. i agree that you know right now your credit is not in strong position, but by forcing it into hastily agreed to it talks and may be in making deeper concessions with further we condemn. so we have to ask ourselves, what is at stake,

and your opinions are, are i'm trying to find answers and we get to that later. but it's worrying that america's turning inwards to china. and europe has few options, but just to continue to support your claim. ukraine, let me tell you that we're not accept a force deal that is negotiated over the heads of drive things moving very, very fast. if you look at the phone, coal between trump and to to and that was on wednesday, the 12th of fed every 6 days late to the talks in riyadh happen. the now trump is talking about may be meeting of putin face to face before the end of the month. well there are less than 10 days left this month and it's interesting, it's actually the kremlin, but it's working that back. so you may not be possible to organize it in that timeframe. well, my guess is that uh, donald trump might be in the holiday, but uh, let me put you in is probably not. uh, because uh, there are some authorities. uh, assume that the time right now he's on the aside. they continue advance and involve

boss that i am not unsuccessful. it to pull. you can then use out of the course could each know that us consideration. so i don't think that they feel that there is a sense of urgency. they would like to be a assignment to meet some the was americans of a to having this root can go. so in the, to sort out not only uh, the ukrainian problem, but the other problem is because most than washington. so i think that uh though they do not want to uh, delay the meeting is there is no such sense of urgency in most court as it probably is in washington dc. so that's all i mean the, we knew that be an economic components of this. and the possibility of lifting sanctions, but the official statement from the state department talks about historic economic, an investment opportunities in, in bringing a piece. i mean, is this

a bit premature? that would be those arguing that given russia was the aggressor, we should be talking about russia pay reparations. oh, this is where the europeans will have to be for which in schools, when it comes to the reconstruction ukraine. and when it comes to a, i would strongly advocate not ending sanctions against russia, but suspended so as to have something to hold over russia's had if it does resume aggression. but really, um that has to be a carrots in any piece because he ation just have to be carrots as well as sticks. i'm. i'm suspending sanctions and resuming economic ties. is one of them, i would say the one thing which was being castleguard 2 objectives of by the pregnant government, and quite rightly is this extraordinary proposal by trump, that america should got its hands on a boat. and in effect,

the whole of ukraine's mineral reserves that by actually a coating, trunks calculations at least getting phone more for america then america has different. so you train in a well, i mean that of course is absolutely unacceptable. your view will not much a they, they the mineral plan. i mean, i spoke i was in noon except the security company. so the weekend, some europeans was saying to me, this amounts to extol shit. number a quote to you from the full swedish prime minister called built blatant exploitation. and it certainly looks like it ends as an excuse, no mandate assignment way 300000000000 or 500000000000 worth of ukrainian minerals and read us some of which of the on russian occupied territory. so this is even for painful past, which already delivered a that's a non starter. but i, i generally believe that it was a smart idea by the premium site to prepare well from scott,

the mentor of incoming administration. last year, they develop the piece plan victory plan, and they also included this aspect and knowing that it would appear to trump and certainly isn't in a ukrainian interest in europe and interest to engage americans in exploitation of ukraine resources. but it has to be a fair and balanced deal. it cannot just be americans, being paid for past age or into ukraine's really wanted us to be part of a broader agreement. they wanted us to be part of the security arrangements and one's real security guarantees maintaining, as may. they may be fragile ceasefire. without that, we cannot talk about resources or any piece to audrey. if we look at the possible benefits for russia economically sanction being lifted. and as i said, of the state department, talking about economic, historic economic opportunities, this couldn't have come about a time. could it for most scope because where you live that you can tell me. but my understanding is the russian economy is really hurting now. double digit inflation,

interest rates starting to get 21 percent the highest in 2 decades. well, this is an item, but to, to be fair to this one has to say that to that i think i'm a big system has demonstrated speak technically. resilience to the professionals like i'm exemptions the market to come and see. jason is to love to come to all the to model have folks shortages of we do not have unemployment to the exchange rate. uh is uh, not really disastrous. you know, that's one of the reasons why there are some phonics still stands behind the leadership. because some menu options to save does not feel the pressure of the war . but of course a sanctions bite. it would be a home to say that's uh, the most effective option economy i and i think that, uh, the problem that the doctor has is that, uh uh, it's like on the collision. so with the,

with the ben primarily on the relations with you, not with united states, and even if they're nice to lift all the sanctions, which is unlikely the theme sections might still be the i in definitely that will be detrimental to the long term future on there as an economy, as i said, i was speaking to a number of european politicians that mean in munich at the weekend. and they all said to me, they're still somewhat confused on a toll with the us plan. because you have different members of the delegation telling different european leaders, different things about where this is go to go up at the top. so you had mike waltz, the national security advisor. steve would cough the special envoy note that was general kellogg, who's supposed to be the special ed board for this issue because mr. it comes to the middle east, a special ed employee. and of course, secretary of state marco rubio, and this might an adult be i was just telling you a little bit about the set country really be because he used to be

a senate unless he seems to have changed his position on ukraine. let me just play a clip, a clip of what he said back in 2014. they made up this excuse that somehow the russian speaking population in the region was being oppressed and attacked and was in danger. and so they needed to intervene even to this day, they still will not admit the military role that they're playing on the ground in front of you. so in addition to violating this international norm, which is an outrageous behavior, they have lied about it and think they can get away with it. and the point that i'm making is even the 21st century. a country is allowed to invade a neighbor, lie about it, and lie about the reasons for it, and they can get away with it without significant cause. we have created a dangerous precedent. and that's all i mean, can you see why some of the europeans all confused, because they, they all getting different messages, not just historical messages from sense of rubio, but i'm told,

getting different messages from different members of the trump team in the end is it only trump the mattress, when he says the in response to rubio statements in which you just quoted, i mean, every one of those things going to be instead of a us invasion of iraq. so let's not pretend that russia is unique in the international regression and defiance of international law. but as far as the trump administration is concerned, well, i mean there are 2 possibilities, both of which by the way could, could be true of the 1st is that as we sold very much in the 1st trump administration, it is a mass i'm, you know, it's it's a dysfunctional, a kale take to have different people with different views caching with each other. a more positive a look at it would say that there's, there's an element of paying good cop, bad cop. uh, you know, some of them say, oh,

we need a good relations with russia quickly. other say, box of rusher is not, you're not actually willing to make peace. well, we can intensify sanctions and so on. i mean, if, if that's what they're doing, then of course, that's classic negotiating a i do. andre. one of the things that wasn't mentioned publicly in re add, but we're hearing privately, is a possible part of the plan is, is often an initial cease for getting ukraine to have elections? no, i assume that is going to be something that we built, welcomed in moscow, where they keep criticizing or questioning of the legitimacy of presidents lensky because he is official to him. is run out or oh, that's exactly right. so if you look at the official narrative, they argue that seems that to him of that level has expired last year so that he can no longer assign any agreements on behalf of okay. and before you entered

and you deal with the for the rest and side to be sure that the, the key for the suit is legitimate. that's why they insist on elections prior to sign in any kind of political sense of the month with the training and leadership. of course we will understand that it is very difficult to to have elections so right now. um, but uh may be a, there is a possibility to kind of elections between the ceasefire and some kind of a final disagreement. but uh, what does zalinski do now? he tried initially of to trump took office on january the twins to be very diplomatic. that changed this week in munich, he, he was much tough up saying he didn't like what was going on since the realities now said the trump is living in a dis, information space and a circle of this, this information. but then trump is also attacking him on the,

on the old police saying that he, it was his fault that the, that the, the war started in the 1st place. what does it lensky do? now? it is actually disturbing to hear the russian narrative boot out its boot and refuses by the us president was wrong, claims for percent approval rating items and from said that the last he has that is absolutely wrong. this is really what we know studying russian propaganda is what is being repeated. so it's boring for the ukraine has a weekend and it has to play this weekend very well. it has to connect with the routines and make sure that electric ukrainians are not against collections. europeans, i'm favor collections, but the conditions have to be there in order to execute those and the conditions. i'm not, you know, yeah, just bear am in germany in the us. i guess it would be the same on the masters or alexis, or they're difficult to uphold. and that means the millions of people are had to feed the country millions into european union, the 1000000. so more than

a 1000000 servicemen. so the, setting the front by so just to think about the practicalities of elections in the absence of any sort of security guarantees is impossible. so. so this is can nice to engage with americans and say, listen, we don't see a plan yet, the ukrainians in your content and heard any one tours of a plan yet we steer the desire to come to a quick ending of the wall. okay? but what is the, how is it being done? what is the role of ukraine and the europeans in this process? if you want americans of you americans, one to europe tends to pay for this, then at least they have to be part of the conception. and again, ukraine will not accept any deal in greece, they are not part of the making of the plan. so you really have to sit down and come to an agreement on the basic principles of what a future agreement could look like. and that's all i think we'd all agree that zalinski now has a very, very weak hand in negotiations. he's going to have to rely on the europeans. what do you think of the chances of the europeans stepping up and, and,

and that being any units from the european side. i mean the europeans kind of course and, and will know to continue the economic and military aid to ukraine. box unit, the powers meeting with mccomb was you knew the trying to propose a your pin peacekeeping force for ukraine was a i'm afraid, complete failure because of the other european countries including even had a you know, which is you, prince biggest supporter. it simply said that they would not provide the troops so of. ready duty installing the bushes, pm said they would only do so. if this, this force was guaranteed by the americans, which of the americans which trumpet already the trumpet ministration. doris said america would not do so. your pin, the new york and options on now limited. but as i say in the course of the, you know, the critical, your pin role is the economic future of ukraine and ukraine's ability to move

towards membership with the european union actually goes to something that only the europeans can decide on and, and how and that is something which the russians have accepted, which must be guaranteed and in a peace settlement on which those, if this can be agreed to. um this does give ukraine a poss towards membership of the west. in many ways, the more important part of the membership of nature, andre, uh, all the concerns that are in russia of a situation where you crane fights on with european support, but not us support. well, of course that are concerns the so you are in the assistance to jane to tell you what to go and therefore of these fights intend to continue. however, i think that to the perception, the solution is that even the, the unit in the system. so continue see to a lot of change, the whole my mental,

which is to say the new k as a speech has impressed and you get when you get to what this set in because i have an answer on the exam, then thank you very much. indeed, thank you to our guest today on inside story and it's all leaving on dry, cold enough and not to you know, as comprehensive coverage on the one you try and continue 0 now to 0 with detailed analysis to help website out is there a dot com is that a, we'd like tool views and ideas go to a facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside story offer on this one x while we are at ha, inside story. i'll see you here get very soon to learn from me. james space and the team here, please stay safe and well by the as the china ramps up the pool, patients of north korean,

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[000:00:00;00] the hello, i'm sammy's a them, this is the news out, live from bill, coming up in the next 60 minutes. dawn from poles, the cranes president, a dictator. the day off that he suggested kid is to blame for us, isn't based on i says it's willing to release all remaining is rated captive in one . go as it outlines what