eventually that ended the fighting between the serbian and cause of albany and force, we were meant to be completely ethnically. cleanse people have power, examines the posts for landscape, and present the challenges for the regions youngest country. this is a vibrant nation states that is a live today because we took no attraction that's not possible the making of a states on that. just a utah meeting on ukraine without ukraine president for the so that's key criticizes towards between the us and russia and saudi arabia. well, donald trump claims t for the war. the kremlin says vladimir putin and trump allowed me to talk again soon. so what is it wirelessly, if you cry, this is inside still the

hello again on james face, high level us and russian delegates gathered in saudi arabia's capital to discuss the war. the 1st meeting of its kind in 3 is bought to ukraine in i'm european union leaders want invited. ukraine's military is reliance on us weapons to fight russia's invasion. president trump's decisions are putting teeth on the increasing pressure, making it feel it's little more than a bargaining chip. ukrainians one piece, but not at any cost. meanwhile, present pollutants seems to have already divided the u. s. and e u creating the worst fracture. and the transatlantic relationship since world war 2 rushes, diplomatic isolation is out of us. so is it time for the european allies to great new economic and military strategies? mostly that will mean for ukraine will be asking those questions to, i guess in a moment. but 1st, this report from alexandra buys, for many people watching around the world, an extraordinary change and relationship senior officials from the us and russia

together at an negotiating table for 4 and a half hours in the saudi capital on tuesday. the 1st meeting of its kind since russian forces invaded ukraine 3 years ago, the law campaigning for the presidency. donald trump said he would end the war lab blaming keys for starting it. this could have been settled very easily. just a half a half baked negotiator could have settled this years ago without isaac, without the loss of much land, very little land without the loss of any lives. neither the ukrainian president nor european leaders were invited to the meeting and re add a move that's angry to many lot them years. a lengthy postponed a plan to visit, to saudi arabia on wednesday, saying he didn't want to with jeremiah as the topics both sets of flu. i thought, you know, but all of this definitely doesn't have

a positive impact on you crap. the less inclusion out of isolation, and i think coaching and russia are really happy because they're involved in discussions. and yesterday there was signals the day of the victims. that's something you even so the us is pushing ahead, announcing plans to create teams for peace talks. washington says it will continue consulting keys and brussels, but direct negotiations will only be with moscow. and it's made clear that all options are open. in order to bring it into any conflict, there has to be concessions made by all sides. we're not going to predetermine what those are. the us has floated russia, keeping ukrainian territory. it seized the lifting of sanctions on moscow and its re admission to the g 7. and the blocking of ukraine's long sought membership of nato. but i'm used to go to the as the president trump was the 1st and i think the only western leader as publicly and loudly said that the one of the root causes of

the ukrainian situation was the input in line of the previous administration to draw ukraine into nato. no western leader has said that, but he said it repeatedly, both kremlin and the white house, say a meeting between president trump and pollutant is planned for the next month or 2 all while the war continues on the ground. after 3 years of fighting, it's officially claimed 150000 lives, but international monitors degree. the actual death tool is likely to be much higher. alexandra buyers, alda 0 for inside story. the. well, let's discuss all this further with, i guess today on the program in washington, dc and a to leave and director of the racial program at the quincy institute and a member of the file club, the russian think tank and most andre colton of political analyst also and full met

director general of the russian international affairs council. and it doesn't go off in germany. mateo nellis political analyst and see of the german ukrainian bureau a think tank. thank you. all 3 of you for talking to us. pretty important developments with regard to ukraine and the toll. let me start with you. how significant is what we seen in riyadh, not just for ukraine, but for the global or whether it's an immense significance that's it seems to come from ministration a wants to bring russia back into some form of a new security architecture in russia. in europe. i mean, if that can be achieved, it would be transformative because this is something that russians, i'm not just russians. i mean many europeans as well as hope for since the end of the cold war, but you have not achieved. but of course, um, this depends on the success of the peace negotiations on ukraine. and

there is an enormous amount which is still not clear on certain things have been decided to overall the actually just to recognize because they've been clear so many years such as a new credit, even neutrality of others. cool. so many other things about the details of the oven, eventually piece of them into a roommate and totally unclear. and we still don't know for sure that such a supplement can be a treat. andre, this meeting last is just over 4 hours. but how important do you think could be the repercussions going forward as well? uh, judging from the initial reactions that we cover the seats here in the most cool. uh, the solution. uh seal. so more or less, uh, uh, heavier, with the outcome, whole this meeting, of course. so these up to me is, is qualified, so they don't want to inflate public expectations. therefore,

they argue that we are just in the very beginning of a bit along the road. and they also emphasize the importance of change and the bi left her relationship, specifically the relationship between the united states. and that was consideration . a lot of emphasis is put on the reservation of the diplomatic dialogue. i. and i think that on the, you can set something to do is probably less or to missing and less informations that there are some side uh, can share at this particular juncture. all right, i'm going, i'm going to have and you, you seem to suggest that playing it rather cool in moscow, but this must be very good news for fort brewton and his government. well, you know, again, you know, i don't want to say that they moved the east pessimistic about the, the clear to tied to manage public expectations. not to create impressions that we're moving towards a new reset. and but the overall or the action that is clearly positives and this

is a very ethical departure from the earlier comments on the u. s. foreign policy. ready and even though the foreign policy all the time, but ministries, okay, not to you, they all worried about this. i think it's fair to say where you are in germany and across western europe, a quote to you from joint you've lives in the form of a french foreign minister. it's a reversal of the state to the will since 1945. we do agree with them, i certainly would agree with that and we, europeans, we just are taking it back by the astonishing speed or for the peace to be the normalization of the russian federation. again, after 3 years of intensive diplomatic pressure by the sanctions, military, supposedly ukraine recede of the ending of the united, you know, wisdom efforts to bring about. and then to this one, ukraine and of course talks essentially were to be expected. but then no happening that i wouldn't call them the go. she ation said,

these are talks between russian america over the heads of the premiums over the heads of your things. and that is certainly worrying for us and raises alarming and loving amount of questions. and that's all, i'm excuse the pun, but trump has already given away some of his trump concepts and t, here in terms of the negotiation. first, just the fact this to the folks took place at this level off the over 3 years. this effectively ends rushes per ah, status ends, its diplomatic isolation. well, i wouldn't say that all of to tools had to take place at some stage. and the unit time is also in ukraine signs. and this will, i'm going to, the russians are advancing the ukrainians are suffering very vasily. um, there is a risk that we don't know how heavy, but it has been discussed by western end of the soap ukrainian collapse. so if you're going to decide on piece talks there's, there's no point in the spinning the mag to might as well, you know, stop them as

a high level and get home with them. but i think will also some of the seas. your pin see is a great key, exaggerated. i mean, uh, it's from 1945 to 1991 ukraine was part of the soviet union. and soviet forces were in the midst of germany on unit 50 miles from the rhine and the french folder. doug, just thinking that we're going to go back to that uh, this will end with a, a came from eyes of the ukraine. by the way, i think it's also with say that of course, any imaginable stuff with no, i mean unless of course you crate and does collapse complete team and that's how really will be fall far short of what preaching out for when he wrote this invasion in 2022 of those in terms of controlling labor, ukraine,

but also in terms of nature refreshing territorial ambitions for a tall but on that. so he keeps, we think at least some 3rd treat, possibly all the territory. so his invasion is being rewarded. that is a loss of principle that we normally happen in international law, or is it, i mean, the un charter says you're not allowed to evade other people's countries. so what did we do against stuckey when it's invited cyprus in 1974, did we even expand it from native? no, we did not. but i mean, the thing is if you want to expelled russia from the tire trans has taken the ukrainians, have to wait on the back and sealed and drives the russian side, which they come to. and if they go on trying to do it, they would eventually destroy themselves. or, of course, we can go to war with russia. but every nation of government, including the bite and the ministration and all of your pens, we've set the window. can you do that? so at some stage, one simply has to recognize reality. and let's have your take on that. recognizing

reality, that's what's going on here. but the yes, again, these with tools with no ukraine. okay. started the very, very 1st round, but no ukraine even invited to the tools. i fundamentally disagree with, and that's all here because this war is not just about ukraine, it's about, you know, the european piece, florida reached out nowadays and chapters obviously. and if to reward russian by accepting maybe even the you are accepting for some, you can't accept the occupation of annexation of some of his territory territory. so it would completely destroy the what's left of the european piece order. and it's more, it's not just about your clients about the, about us, it's about principles of changing bonus by force. so that's why it's important to repel the russian aggression. i agree that you know right now your credit is not in strong position, but by forcing it into hastily agreed to it talks and may be in making deeper concessions with further we condemn. so we have to ask ourselves, what is it speak, and your opinions are, are,

i'm trying to find answers and we get to that later. but it's worrying that the americans turning english to china and europe has few options. but just to continue to spill to crime ukraine, let me tell you that we're not accept the forest deal. that is, and you go, shaded over the heads on dry things moving very, very fast. if you look at the phone, coal between trump and to to and that was on wednesday, the 12th of fed every 6 days late to the talks in riyadh happen. the now trump is talking about may be meeting of putin face to face before the end of the month. well there are less than 10 days left this month and it's interesting, it's actually the kremlin, but it's working that back. so you may not be possible to organize it in that timeframe. well, my guess is that uh, donald trump might be in the holiday, but uh, let me put you in is probably not. uh, because uh, there are some authorities. uh, assume that the time right now he's on the aside. they continue advance and involve

boss that i am not done successfully to full. you can then use out of the course could each know that us instead of ation. so i don't think that they feel that there is a sense of urgency. they would like to be a assignment to meet and it was a very close to having this root can go. so in the, to sort out not only uh, the ukrainian problem, but the other problem is because most from the washington. so i think that uh though they do not want to delay the meeting, is there is no such sense of urgency in most court as it probably is by in washington dc. to uninstall, i mean the, we knew that be an economic component to this. and the possibility of lifting sanctions, but the official statement from the state department talks about historic economic, an investment opportunities in, in bringing a piece. i mean, is this

a bit premature? that would be those arguing that given russia was the aggressor, we should be talking about russia pay reparations. oh, this is where the europeans will have to be for which it cools when it comes to the reconstruction ukraine. and when it comes to a, i would strongly advocate not ending sanctions against russia would suspend, so as to have something to hold over russia's had if it does resume aggression. but really, um that has to be a carrots in any piece because the i should just have to be carrots as well as sticks. i'm. i'm suspending sanctions and resuming economic ties. is one of them, i would say the one thing which was being category 2 objectives of buy um, ukraine and government, and quite rightly is this extraordinary proposal. buy from that. uh, america should got its hands on a boat. and in effect,

the whole of ukraine's mineral reserves that by actually a coating, trunks, calculations, least getting phone more for america, then america has different. so you trade in a well, i mean that, of course is absolutely unacceptable. your view will not much a they, they the mineral plan. i mean, i spoke i was in munich at the security company. so the weekend, some europeans was saying to me, this amounts to extol shit. number a quote to you from the full swedish prime minister called built blatant exploitation. and it certainly looks like it ends as an excuse, no mandate assignment weigh $300000000000.00 or highest on a 1000000000 worth of fuel cleaning minerals and read us some of which of the on the russian occupied territory. so this is even for painful past. we've already delivered a that's a non starter, but i, i generally believe that it was a smart idea by the premium site to prepare well from scott to meant for the

incoming administration last year. they develop the piece plan victory plan, and they also included this aspect and knowing that it would appear to trump and certainly isn't in a ukrainian interest in europe and interest to engage americans in exploitation of ukraine resources. but it has to be a fair and balanced deal. it can not just be americans being paid for past 8 or in the ukraine, is really wanted us to be part of a broader agreement. they want this to be part of the security arrangements and wants real security guarantees maintaining, as may, they may be fragile to cease fire without the edge. we cannot talk about resources or any piece to audrey. if we look at the possible benefits for russia economically sanction being lifted. and as i said, of the state department, talking about economic, historic economic opportunities, this couldn't have come about a time. could it for most scope because where you live that you can tell me. but my understanding is the russian economy is really hurting now. double digit inflation,

interest rates done to get 21 percent the highest in 2 decades. well, this is an item, but uh, to be fair to that i. so this one has to say that to that i think i'm a big system has demonstrated speak technically. resilience to the professionals like i'm exemptions the market to come and see jason is to love to come to all the to model have folks shortages of we do not have unemployment of the exchange rate. uh is uh, not really disastrous. you know, that's one of the reasons why there are some phonics steel stands behind the leadership. because some menu options to save did not feel the pressure of the war . but of course, a sanctions bite. it would be a home to say that they did not have such a good option economy. i and i think that uh, the problem that the doctor has is that uh uh, it's like on the collision. so with the,

with to the been primarily on the relations with you, not with united states. and even if they're nice to listen to all these sanctions, which is unlikely, the theme sections much to be the i in definitely that will be detrimental to the long term future on there as an economy. as i said, i was speaking to a number of european politicians that mean in munich at the weekend, and they all said to me, they're still somewhat confused on a toll with the us plan because you have different members of the delegation telling different european leaders different things about where this is go to go up at the totes you had mike waltz, the national security advisor. steve would cough the special envoy note that was general kellogg, who's supposed to be the special ed boy for this issue. because mr. witt comes to the middle east, a special employee, and of course, secretary of state, marco rubio, and this might an adult be. i was just telling you a little bit about the set country really be because he used to be

a senate. and he seems to have changed his position on ukraine. let me just play a clip, a clip of what he said back in 2014. they made up this excuse that somehow the russian speaking population in the region was being oppressed and attacked and, and was in danger. and so they needed to intervene even to this day, they still will not admit the military role that they're playing on the ground in front me. so in addition to violating this international norm, which is an outrageous behavior, they have lied about it and think they can get away with it. and the point that i'm making is even the 21st century. a country is allowed to invade a neighbor, lie about it, and lie about the reasons for it, and they can get away with it without significant cause. we have created a dangerous precedent. and that's all i mean, can you see why some of the europeans all confused? because they, they all getting different messages, not just historical messages from said it's a rubio,

but i'm told getting different messages from different members of the trump team in the end. does it only trump the mattress when he says the in response to rubio statements in which you just quoted, i mean, every one of those things going to be inside of the us invasion of iraq. so let's not pretend that russia is unique in the international regression and defiance of international. but as far as the trump administration is concerned, uh well, i mean there are 2 possibilities, both of which by the way could, could be true of the 1st is that as we sold very much in the 1st trump administration, it is a mass i'm, you know, it's, it's a dysfunctional, a kale take to have different people with different views, crashing with each other. a more positive a look at it would say that there's an element of paying good cop, bad cop. uh, you know, some of them say, oh, we need

a good relations with russia quickly. other say, box of rusher is not, you're not actually willing to make peace. well, we can intensify sanctions and so on. i mean, if, if that's what they're doing, then of course, that's classic negotiating. i do. andre. one of the things that wasn't mentioned publicly in re add, but we're hearing privately, is a possible part of the plan is, is often an initial cease for getting ukraine to have elections. now i assume that is going to be something that we built, welcomed in moscow, where they keep criticizing or questioning of the legitimacy of presidents lensky because he's official to him, is run out. that's exactly right. so if you look at the official narrative, they argue that seems the to him of the level of the expired last year. the landscape can no longer assign any agreements ones because of okay. and before.

yeah. and you deal with key that's inside to be sure that the, the key for the suit is legitimate. that's why they insist on elections prior to sign and, and you kind of a political sense of the month with the training and leadership. of course we'll understand that it is very difficult to to have elections so right now, um, but uh may be a, there is a possibility to kind of elections between a ceasefire and some kind of a final disagreement. but uh, what does zalinski do now? he tried initially off the trump took office on january the twins to be very diplomatic. about change this week in munich. he, he was much tough. are saying he didn't like what was going on since the realities now said the trump is living in a this information space and a circle of this, this information. but then trump is also attacking him and on the old

police saying that he, it was his fault that the, that the, the war started in the 1st place. what does it lensky do? now? it is actually disturbing to hear the russian narrative boot out its boot and refuses by the us president was wrong, claims for percent approval rating items and from said that the last he has that is absolutely wrong. this is really what we know studying russian propaganda is what is being repeat it. so it's boring for the ukraine has a weekend and it has to play this weekend very well. it has to connect with the europeans and make sure that electric ukrainians are not against collections. europeans, i'm favor collections, but the conditions have to be there in order to execute those and the conditions. i'm not, you know, just bear am in germany in the us. i guess it would be the same on the mushrooms or alexis a very difficult to uphold. and that means the millions of people are, had to feed the country millions into european union, the 1000000 or more than

a 1000000 servicemen. so that setting the front by so just to think about the practicalities of elections in the absence of any sort of security guarantees is impossible. so. so this is an scheme nice to engage with americans and say, listen, we don't see a plan yet, the ukrainians in your consent and heard any one tours of a plan yet we steer the desire to come to a quick ending of the wall. okay, but what is the, how is it being done? what is the role of ukraine and the europeans in this process? if you want americans of you americans, one to europe tends to pay for this, then at least they have to be part of the conception. and again, ukraine will not accept any deal in greece. they are not part of the making of the plan. so you really have to sit down and come to an agreement on the basic principles of what a future agreement could look like us. and that's all, i think we'd all agree that. so lensky now has a very, very weak hand in negotiations. he's going to have to rely on the europeans. what do you think of the chances of the european stepping up and, and, and that being any units from the european side. i mean,

the europeans kind of goes and, and will know dr. continue the economic and military aid to ukraine box unit. the powers meeting with mccomb was you know, the trying to propose a, your pin peacekeeping force for ukraine was a, i'm afraid, complete failure because of the other european countries including even hold of you know, which is you, prince biggest supporter. i simply said that they would not provide the troops of. ready duty installing the bushes, pm said they would only do so. if this, this force was guaranteed by the americans, which of the americans which trumpet already the trumpet ministration. doris said america would not do so. your pin, the european options, um now limits it. but as i say in the course of the unit, the critical, your pin role is the economic future of ukraine and ukraine's ability to move

towards membership with the european union actually goes to something that only the or pins can decide on and, and help. and that's just something which the russians have accepted, which must be guaranteed in the end of a piece that's on which those, if this can be agreed to, um, this does give ukraine a poss towards membership from the west. in many ways, the more important part of the membership of nature, andre, uh, all the concerns that are in russia of a situation where you crane to fights on with european support, but not us support. well, of course that are concerns that so, so you will be in the assistance to today to tell you where to go. and the 4 of these 5 contents continue. however, i think that the, the perception in the solution is that even in the us, in the system, so continue see to a lot of change. the whole,

my mental we should be is to favor shut on. and then you came as a speech is impressed and you get when you get to what's a set in between having an answer on the exam, then thank you very much. indeed. thank you to our guest today on inside story and the total. even andre quoting of and not to you know, as comprehensive coverage on the one you try and continue 0 now to 0, a detailed analysis to help website out is there a dot com is that of, uh, we'd like to, of use and ideas go to a facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside story, or find this one x while we are at a inside story. i'll see you here. get very soon to learn from me, james, based on the team here, please stay safe and well, bye bye for now. the to head his back with too exciting, new shows. join me mad. the hudson with

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information. please visit the awards official website at w w. w dot h t a dot q a the, [000:00:00;00] the other online sites. the news outline from dell ha, coming off in the next 60 minutes. donald from kohls ukraine's president a dictates a day off. the he suggested keith is to blame for russia's invasion. a mouth says it's willing to release or remaining is running captives in one go as it outlines