agreement to an agencies warm that without sustains international supports that humanitarian catastrophe here were only deepest with details coverage. nearly 10000 palestinians remain in prison fires real said potentially. thousands more disappeared from garza from the house of the story. the entire city of the tunnel and doesn't have any ration of health specific people have to get out of the city. sightseeing is intensifying in eastern democratic republic of congo. the one to back to m 23 group is making further territorial advances. so with diplomacy failing one of the risks, the conflict may escalate into a know the regional war. this is inside store the

hello again on jaden space and the democratic republic of congo. anxiety is growing in the capital kinshasa, london backed am $23.00 rebels were advancing in the spreading out across north and south t bu. a now aiming for the city of elevator. this is happening. it's such a rapid pace that it's starting up memories of events of 3 decades ago. many regional plans were involved including uganda, the room, d and south africa. and that's causing concern. the conflict could spread the on the deceit. can m. 23 rebels push all the way to control some more on this. and today's program, which we begin with this report from dmitri. but down in co, a vida, met with the laser can be in the avita. everyone is running away, says the man filming this video. as gun fi is vito local village of fighters urge people not to panic. as companies army troops retreat from

the area, london back and 23 rebels are advancing on this town by lake duncan mika, the board, as boone, the about 80 kilometers south of because of the rebels took control of goma in january. and then bukasa and southern keep 2 weeks later, the pays at which m 23 has been advancing. has a lot of people in the capital contrast to 1500 kilometers away. the government must take its responsibilities to view. how do we function unrestored, the chain of commodity? for example, the tunnel will not gotten, it will sticking without any effort. also, some, you know, what does it fit? that was, i call them the head of states not to negotiate. we must fight against them. if someone hits you, what should you do? you must fight sparks. the un says the war has forced hundreds of thousands of people from the homes. to south africa has been sending additional troops to join the companies army and fighting them. $23.00 of to 14 of its soldiers were reported

to have been killed with last month. the presence of the room, the forces on the ground is funding fee is the fighting and come go get expand into a launch of regional conflict. the commitment to a political solution is one that is an wavering 1st of all for the d r c. but also for all come countries of the region as well as for the security council. so i think it is an important takeaway to say that everyone is committed to a political solution. the fighting must end. and for that, the one been troops must withdraw the democratic republic of congo and the united nation se, but one that supports the m 23 rep, those with arms and troops. the companies government also says key golly is using the group as a proxy army to capture the countries resources in the east with trillions of dollars to meet you met with in co, out to 0 for insight story. well,

let's discuss all of this now with our panel of guests today. and then across and gone, we have come by late, most of really a search at the center for a search on the congo. nope. sort of sweden angela november so strong. she's a senior research of the north african institute. i'm in washington dc. i've the law he how lucky is a piece of policy analyst? i've seen your advocate at refugees international. thank you all of you for joining us today. angela, let me start with you. are you surprised by what we've seen this year? are you surprised by m 20 three's progress? i'm not surprised actually. i mean, and m, 23 has grown in stature and in scale and size in the last 5 years or so at the negotiations that were ongoing and led by angola in december of 2024 broke down. and that was partly because that was a sort of

a dispute between the government and the d. r. c. and, and other actors involved in the process about the inclusion of m. 23 in negotiations. and the result of the last months are also partly a reflection of changes in the geo political landscape. and i think for m 23 and for all other actors it's, it's, it's evident geopolitically that there is an opportunity now to actually in, in, to go on in terms of military goals and objectives and move quite rapidly towards crossing certain boundaries that have existed in the past when external actors would have been much more reluctant to allow or to permit encroachment on territorial sub sovereignty of the state. to come by, let me bring up one of the absolute central issues. if i may,

which is the involvement overland? the real one that says it's not backing them 23, everyone from president pulled to gone me down is saying that what is the reality? because i don't think there's any one in the international community who now believes that i believe for file for president book i me, he actually stated that he doesn't know if he's trips buying a deal to see or not. and for everyone. davey. this is already presented. we have drawn silver on this video for evidence, photographic evidence, and people are on the ground with confirm this so it's no longer in addition, it is clear that tells us of run the troops from the run. the defense forces are in the new york. i'd say it was a totally, definitely jump to there. if i can combine it, do we have estimates of the numbers? how many random trips do we think? because the, how many m 23 falling to is. do we think they are backing just to be clear?

so you want to go over the best product has caught that since last year, at least $4000.00 run the defense for some years. are on come with the sort of and the submitted the site and evidence to the un security council. what we have seen so far that is not being strong actions up until yesterday, yesterday, the us secretary of treasury or the treasury office in the united states put sanction on the run. the a from a run. the general was currently the minister of state for regional paris operation . just got back a bit. and these ma'am, east popped off the run. the defense for soldiers retire and active was being listed into un group of experts, reports as the commander. so the, as all, we've been the run the army to the m $23.00. so seeing that action is it passed to in the right direction, buys read, it's a list spoken with e, as we have saying. that's the step many is a 2. and that's

a csc 12 we've come with these because in the 80 phase that jessica by baby has been active for the past 30 years, a 3 decades of this tells us that the united states government has all the information the needs are required to actually take action before the 30 years, they have not taken action. and i hope that this step in the right direction is a path to justice. so action in terms of some sanctions from the us. but the security council of the law, he, which was meeting on wednesday the un security council has not taken action. it certainly discussed this quite a few times in the meeting. the most recent meeting on wednesday, the u. s. equity general's invoice for the great light. so long see a said, the risk of a regional comfortable gratian is more real than ever. history is repeating itself . i think it might be useful for you to just explain the history of the 19 ninety's

for us and what's at stake. i think what an stake is the regional stability will do what like so each of these has known the 1st time that one visa, intervening in the territorial integrity of, of the democratic republic of congo. you know, towards the end of the cold war, when the former president of the democratic republic vehicles campbell, formerly known as a what was what's wrong to do a combination of the guidance and one that was in games come in a play and a significant role. and not after that, when one does run these on ugandans, but especially the one is thought that they have been stolen them on in the form of can be let's see here, i see time to against them or the very mini mom did one. these soul with that and being marginalized, and therefore they low instead of the military. i talked to withdraw him in 1998, i think creating all gods. but that brought in so many african militaries and what

was defined then us because wild rule way out by some estimate almost 5400000 people died. i think we have no result of some of those type loans that really led to that conflict. we had one that thing cuz i've been very minimal, i'm going to say does that. it doesn't exist initial it went from the government. that was impala ignite that was born in 1994. that is inside the eastern part of the d. c. on the question on that one, these or the very mini mom, the tutsis called by him lang a that ok bye. they. we don't like me to some part of the d. c. okay. i think the one to jump to that, cuz i want angela to take up the story since then. and i think throughout history, the eastern part of d. c has had very weak control from the capital control. so there's more than 1000 kilometers away. and it's been a conference out and ever since. so, isn't it?

that's right. it's been a complex zone ever since. i mean, even just for the, for the ostensible period that we're discussing. i mean it's, it's been impossible for can shasta through successive governments and elections to have full territorial control over that region. none the less, i think that the population in eastern d r. c has been kind of like a football being kicked back and forth between externally supported armed groups like m 23 and the a. the a, there's allied defense forces, the adf. i'm backing by different regional actors, but that's also resulted in mass displacement over one and a half 1000000 people. i've been to play displaced regularly and the scales. i mean, shoot a large scale of the human rights violence including sexual violence and the,

the, the combination of this and the fact that the kids also government hasn't been able to also implement strong governance institutions in eastern d. r c has further left the population sort of prey to the preservation of x terminal actors of external armed groups. and as well as of course the, the number i mean, the over a 100 militias and, and rebel groups and civil defense units. and, and it's a highly militarized area, and i would, i would argue that it is likely that the situation will, can, will worse and, but i don't really think it's going to become a world war 3 for africa. again, i don't think we'll see a complete repeat. i think we'll see something different than we saw in the 1990s

in late. ok, i think let, let me bring it in. come by the let's, if we look at m 23, they have been around for some time and they did take government once before in 2012, only for a short period. and then there was a special enforcement wing of the you enforcement of scope called the false into intervention brigade, deployed within defensive mandate. and they were pushed down and pushed back into rolanda. it's so different this time, isn't it? because i'm in my list to tell me if i've left anyone out, the forces that were in the east and the democratic republic of congo. you had new scope. the un peacekeeping force on paper 11000 strong, although they weren't in the south keyvi, which is where i'm 23. have now gone. they've got the congolese forces. you have a motion res, reportedly from romania, and from the been hired by the congolese. you had another, a peacekeeping force from the south african development community. that's the

regional grouping of it was called semi d. c. that was malawi, and then particularly south african troop $714.00 south africans died. and you had troops from the neighboring country, britain to more than 10000 soldiers that from burgundy and m. 23 has plowed ahead. have they not combine them an succeeded, despite all of those different forces only and that the purpose of dram $23.00 is to run the defense forces. i mean, when, when you read that you want to report is quite clear about what is happening. uh the yeah. fight seeing a super military that's able to uh, jam gps system. what does that mean? the means that the communities army cannot fly the plans in the area where the rep, as are well as the said knowledge of the run, the military. we have a short up system, right? the shot. the defense system used by the m 23. you have not vision. got got go according to our african intelligence newspaper. they've actually mess and that

just the king over the city of golden up. i'll go my was the was done, we've support of a saw drones even on the terrorist. ready un secretary general news interview, we found spring. congress stated that the m 23. that's much more sophisticated with and we'd like to give it to you in forces. so is the context to look at the what is actually happening there? now as you're talking about the different armies involved and they've come with different mandates, the false intervention brigades that came in 2012 was actually inaction of subject . where do you, when do you not want this force to be outside of the you went through his diction. that's the way i actually added. so what were you seeing over the years is best said nations as to bolted it back to piece from immediate terry perspective. to bring about that, but i'm also clear, the path to peace is not going to come to me. the 30 means right is going to couple of diplomacy in 2012 of was stopped. the m $23.00 was aggressive diplomacy that

what are we talking about? western nations and international institutions such as the world bank, the african development bank. all we've allocated to run that. the scene for action caused it providing pressure internationally for renting game around right now that type of action is not the reached. we strongly believe because of run those economy because of a run does military support from the western nations, but the central for them to take similar actions to any and around that to be able to go back to the negotiating table to discuss about the business stability by military solution will not and the conflict is the problem. okay, let me let, let me bring that. let me bring it on to their own that point. i mean, is there anything militarily that can stop and 23? i, one of the things i noticed when they took, because who they also took, couple moves, which is apparently big airport,

which cuts off all of the supplies to the comedies on me. that's right. i mean i, i would just have to agree with the others that i think that it is. it is a question of really being able to militarily engage and this arm, not just necessarily this arm, but neutralize rwanda. persuade and create incentives for the rwandan government to in turn contain and controlled m 23. and i think that at the diplomatically there, there are a lot of weaknesses in such an effort. and you know burundi has withdrawn some of its forces. i don't know if the reports from this week are true or not. they withdrawn, i believe, a $10000.00 of those of those, those forces you've gone down, the other hand is deploying a bit more. i think there's still quite a lot of uncertainty and back and forth. and the region, i believe,

would like to have a sort of a status quote settlement. but i think that the, the real pressure has to come from even further outside of the continental will have to come from us further strengthening. it's a negative message against the golly to contain kigali and to persuade kigali to control and 23. and really that, that, that is really the lever that needs to be pressed in order for it, for all of these actors to go back. i mean, there was some consensus between the east african community and the southern african development community around the diplomatic process to go for proceeding. i think that that that consensus could hold. but i do believe that there are major concessions that could in shots that will have to make an ultimately it will, there will have to be some sort of a,

a negotiation that really takes into account the interest silver wanda, the interest of m, 23, the the territorial integrity of the congo, these people and of the government in, in contrast. but that, that is, will be diplomatic and a political process, but without strong strong leverage against wanda, we will not get that de la. he um, in terms of the m 23 where they are moving. they seem to be moving south rivera and that is right on the border with the run the on the shore of lake tongue mika, less than 30 kilometers away from bush and bordeaux, which is the main city, and used to be the capital i'm going with involving more or more countries will come on so you can do in a minute more and more countries. i mean they already have trips that are under more and more countries and getting directly involved refugees of streaming into birthday. yes it is. i think um,

even why we are discussing the large strategic issues at play. well, we shouldn't lose sight of these. the people who are paying the ultimate price, they can release the children and the women in the see. last year i was in goma. i'm it women, you know, like not a single one of them has no experience and you know, sexual agenda based biden's. and some of them told me the people who committed these people as young as my children. so i think we shouldn't lose sight of that. but i think to your question around, but only is the fact that we're on the and blown the other one that doesn't enjoy your relationship because the ease of little group that is based inside but wound it inside the d as see that the moonbeams think of being supported, let's them being supported by one that to this debbie lies

a little indeed. so therefore that no just the interest of the see the other moving interests of other countries that are using the d. c as a base from where they destabilize no, just the d. c, but countries in the region. but fundamentally though, we have to get back to the question of what, what he's in the interest of the see everybody has their own interest. d r. c also has its own interest on, i think, fundamentally the citizens of the c o will continue to in do, agreed. yes, human rights violation, women and children being ripped on seems simply as a tool rule by various actors, including allied militias. got what with the guy with the d. c. government that has to stop. it doesn't matter how in secured wanda fields, but i think a lot that the people did the see especially these, these are much more than it is getting right now. come out a um,

earlier angela mentioned briefly you guns and forces cuz we got burundi now and then you kind of, they've gone to the capital of a tory province bonia. do we think because in the past they have been allied with rolanda, but they've also recently been in support of the d. c. do we know exactly what you've gone to is doing that? i'm sorry to keep or referencing the you in a group of experts because that being very clear and showing the evidence right now the m 23 had been trimming in compiler according to do you in a group of experts. not only that. so they've been entering the the, or see from that you've done the border, the test. so you're yeah. so you are suggesting that uganda is on the side over one the m the m $23.00. just to put it someplace that is that your understanding? yes, but it's not me, it's the human group of expert for sending that to us or the security council waste . nothing opinion from from a southeast defects on the ground. right. so we do know that you pdf commander as

best. ready you've done that in people's defense, plus the military had been instructors in the camps where the emperor entries training. we also know that m 23 crosses the border gun. that's a d r c. we've being stopped by. you've got the government media, terry oak on the border patrol of whatever the may have, and a recommendation from the proof of expertise that the guns and government needs to take action around the evidence that's being presented to them, which they have not. so i will not be surprised to see you know, the front uh actually create on the top. but i think it's important to point out with the less and less than to eventually buy the interest of the commodities. the interest of the company's lies into breakfast in the womb baz independence. the speech where a phase that goes minerals goes lens color, resources to belong to the community speed you should be exposed to the benefits of

the people. what we're seeing is not that right. as we are talking about attending the interest of a for an extra and it runs what they need on the, in the country. mean our resources need it for the 4th industrial revolutions. continue to come up with the congo congress goats and he's being exposed to come with lead. jim is also being exposed to gold. and so, right, so we must know as to even talking about the complexity of the conflicts that in the real root cause is controlled. i've come with mineral wealth and he has a few of, of homeless history the multiple form. so to address that is for miss shows what go swimming. these are these minerals to all corporations accountable. that's why uh, seeing the essential that got iran terms come back a bit where he pointed up very clearly, right? is run, the defense minister is facilitating the export of minerals from the or seat to the outside world. not, not speculation. so this is what we have functioning here. putting the names on the

company's right, the keystone, the holding register in paris i believe. and also in the u. k, that is, it shouldn't be presented as in mysterious conflict. what we do not know the actors . we do not know the companies africans, i want them the killing of charter. okay. and to the i was interested to read that some embassies in contrast to the west of embassies, including the us, the u. k. have evacuated most the stop because that worried about the situation. i mean, do you think there was any possibility m. 23 may want to push all the way to the capital and just a quick point of geography. that's over 1500 kilometers away. but of course there is the president of 1997 as yes, that's true, but that wasn't, it was a different time. i mean the government and, and the content, the d r. c. government was significantly weak or i think i'm had less experience

with a waging a kind of a dance with rwanda, with k golly. at that time. and in this, in this regard, i think that and that i'm, i'm very skeptical that m 23 will go all the way to can shasta, i don't think it needs to go all the way to control. so i mean, i think it needs to threaten to, i think that the threat of its military success and it's control of eastern the r c. and it's success so far. i'm it support from regional players. really, we'll create a kind of another lever, a kind of lever and negotiation shading position with kinshasa. i do believe that the real um ambition here is to have control of compo, square minerals, particularly from that part of the region. i know that m $23.00 just alone and

taxes, i think paid to it for extraction of some critical minerals makes almost $10000000.00 a month or more just from that, not from the actual cost of, of, of actual profits. so it's a kind of in slave meant of the people of the congo, a to production of an extraction of these minerals and, and, and to the global sort of financial system that supports it, the extraction. but i don't believe that m 23 can actually go all the way to control. so we'll see though, i mean, if the us doesn't really engage, if there's not enough international pressure, i think between now and the next few months, then perhaps i would change my mind. but simply by putting more pressure, like they did, i think in 2012 this a similar situation occurred and there was

a significant pressure from the us and i'm not pulled back. i'm 23. i was occupation of go my then. so i don't, i'm a bit more skeptical. thank you very much. angela. thank you tool. i guess today come validate most of hooley angela of whom, but so strong and of the law here. how lucky, thanks so much for watching. remember, you can always see this program again and all our recent editions. by visiting the inside story page out, is there a dot com or on facebook if you'd like to post your comments. facebook dot com forward slash a inside story, or if you prefer to use ex, look for at a inside story for me, james phase and the production team. please say safe and well bye bye, from the from the impact of the us selections,

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