in sunday, everybody who has spoken to wants peace with many of the don't think so any cost i'll just say with teams across the world. when you closer to the hosp to the store, the pricing is intensifying in eastern democratic republic of congo. the one in the back to m 23 group is making further territorial advances. so with diplomacy failing both of the risks, the conflict may escalate into a know the regional war. this is inside store the hello again on james bays, and the democratic republic of congo, anxiety is growing in the capital control. so london bank am $23.00 rebels are advancing and the spreading out across north and south

t bu. a now aiming for the city of vera. this is happening. it's such a rapid pace that it's starting up memories of events of 3 decades ago. many regional plans were involved including uganda, the room day on south africa, and that's causing concern. the conflict could spread the on the deceit can m 23 rebels push all the way to control some more on this. and today's program, which we begin with this report from dmitri, but that in co, a view to met with dealers or it can be in the avita. everyone is running away, says the man filming this video, as gun fine as to the local village of fighters. urge people not to panic. as companies army troops retreat from the area, london back and 23 rebels are advancing on this town by lake duncan mika, the board as balloon d, about a 2 kilometers south of because of the rebels took control of goma in january and

then bukasa in southern keep 2 weeks later, the pace at which m 23 has been advancing. has a lot of people in the capital, contrast to 1500 kilometers away from the government must take its responsibilities to view. how do we function unrestored, the chain of commodity? for example, the tunnel will not gotten, it will sticking without any effort. also, some, you know, what does it fit? that was, i call them the head of states not to negotiate. we must fight against them. if someone hits you, what should you do? you must fight sparks. the un says the war has forced hundreds of thousands of people from the homes. to south africa has been sending additional troops to join the companies army and fighting them. $23.00 of the 14 of its soldiers were reported to have been killed with last month. the presence of the room, the forces on the ground is fanning fee is the fighting and congo could expand into

a larger regional conflict. the commitment to a political solution is one that is unwavering. first of all, for the d r c, but also for all come countries of the region as well as for the security council. so i think it is an important take away to say that everyone is committed to a political solution. the fighting must end. and for that, the one, the troops must withdraw the democratic republic of congo and the united nation se, but one that supports the m $23.00 rep, those with arms and troops. the companies government also says kigali is using the group as a proxy army to capture the countries resources in the least with trillions of dollars to meet you met with in co, out to 0 for insight story. well, let's discuss all of this now with the approval of guests today, and then i cried and gone. now we have come by late, most of really a search at the center for a search on the congo. nope. sort of sweden angela november. so strong. she's

a senior research here, the north african institute. i'm in washington dc. i've the law he how lucky is a piece of policy analyst? i've seen your advocate at refugees international. thank you all of you for joining us today. angela, let me start with you. are you surprised by what we've seen this year? are you surprised by m 20 three's progress? i'm not surprised actually. i mean, i'm to m 23 has grown in stature and in scale and size in the last 5 years or so at the negotiations that were ongoing and led by angola in december of 2024 broke down. and that was partly because that was the sort of a dispute between the government and the d. r. c. and, and other actors involved in the process about the inclusion of m. 23 in

negotiations. and the result of the last months are also partly a reflection of changes in the geo political landscape. and i think for m 23 and for other actors it's, it's, it's evident geopolitically that there is an opportunity now to actually in, in, to go on in terms of military goals and objectives and move quite rapidly towards crossing certain boundaries that have existed in the past when external actors would have been much more reluctant to allow or to permit encroachment on territorial sub sovereignty of the state. to come by, let me bring up one of the absolute central issues. if i may, which is the involvement overland. the real one that says it's not backing them 23, everyone from present pull to gummy down is saying that what is the reality?

because i don't think there's any one in the international community who now believes that i believe for president polk, i mean he actually stated that he doesn't know if he's trips buying a deal to see or not. and for everyone. davey. this is already presented. we have drawn silver on this video for evidence, photographic evidence that people are on the ground web, confirm this so it is no longer in addition, it is clear that tells us of run the troops from the run. the defense forces are in the new york. i'd say it was a total, it definitely can jump to there. if i can combine it, do we have estimates of the numbers? how many random trips do we think? because the how many m $23.00 falling to is, do we think they are backing just to be clear? the expert has quoted that says last year, at least $4000.00 run the defense force saw years are on commodity. so and the

submitted the signed evidence to the un security council. what we have seen so far that has not been strong actions up until yesterday. yesterday the us secretary of treasury of the treasury office in the united states put the sanction on the run, the a from a run. the general was currently the minister of state for regional paris corporation . just got back a bit. and these ma'am, east popped off the run. the defense for soldiers retire and back to you was being listed into you. one group of experts, reports as the commander. so the, as all, we've been the run the army to the m $23.00. so seeing that action is it passed to in the right direction, buys read, it's a list spoken with e as we are saying. that's the step many is a 2. so that's a c, a c 12 we've gone with these because in the 80 phase that jessica by baby has been active for the past 30 years,

a 3 decades of this tells us that the united states government has all the information of the needs are required to actually take action, but for 30 years they have not the connection and hopes of the step in the right direction is a path to justice. so action in terms of some sanctions from the us. but the security council of the law, he, which was meeting on wednesday the un security council has not taken action. it certainly discussed this quite a few times in the meeting. the most recent meeting on wednesday, the you inspector general's invoice for the great lights along c, a said. the risk of a regional comfortable gratian is more real than ever. history is repeating itself . i think it might be useful for you to just explain the history of the 19 ninety's for us and what's at stake. i think what an stake is the regional stability westlake. so each of these has known the 1st time that one visa,

intervening in the territorial integrity of, of the democratic republic of congo. you know, towards the end of the cold war, when the former president of the democratic republic of congo formerly known as a what was that, what's going on to a combination of the guidance and one that was in games come in a play and a significant role and not, and after that, when alonda was one of these ugandans that special one is thought that they have installed them on in the form of camille. i've seen you, i see time to against them or the very mini mom did one these soul with that. and being marginalized, and therefore they lo, instead of the military attack to overall he in 1998 i think in august. but that brought in so many african militaries and what was defined then as africa's wild rule way out by some estimate almost 5400000 people died. i think

we've not resolved some of those types loans that really. busy conflict, we had one the thing cuz i've been very minimal. i'm going to say does that. it doesn't exist initial it's away from the government that was in pilot in night that was deposed in 1994. that is inside the eastern part of the d. c. on the question on that one, these or the very mini mom, the tutsis called by him lang a that ok bye. they the regional some part of the d. c. okay, i think the interrupt you this one and let's take out the story of since then, and i think throughout history, the eastern part of the all see who's had very weak control from the capital control. so there's more than 1000 kilometers away, and it's been a conflict 7 ever since, isn't it? that's right. it's been a complex zone ever since. i mean, even just for the, for the a sensible period that we're discussing. i mean it's,

it's been impossible for kinshasa through successive governments and elections to have full territorial control over that region. non, the less i think that the population in eastern d r c has been kind of like a football being kicked back and forth between externally supported armed groups like m 23 and the a, the a, there's allied defense forces, the adf. i'm backing by different regional actors, but that's also resulted in mass displacement over one and a half 1000000 people. i've been to play displaced regularly and scales. i mean, shoot a large scale of the human rights violence including sexual violence and the, the, the combination of this and the fact that the kinshasa government hasn't been able

to also implement strong governance institutions in eastern d. r c has further left the population sort of prey to the preservation of x terminal actors of external armed groups. and as well as of course the, the number i mean, the over a 100 militias and, and rebel groups and civil defense units. and, and it's a highly militarized area, and i would, i would argue that it is likely that the situation will, can, will worse and, but i don't really think it's going to become a world worth 3 for africa. again, i don't think we'll see a complete repeat. i think we'll see something different than we saw in the 1990s in late. okay. i think let, let me bring it in. come about it. um, if we look at m 23, they have been around for some time and they did take government one as before in

2012, only for a short period. then there was a special enforcement wing of the you enforcement of sco cold, the false into intervention brigade deployed within defensive mandate, and they were pushed down and pushed back into rolanda. it's so different this time, isn't it? because i'm in my list to tell me if i've left anyone out, the forces that were in the east and the democratic republic of congo. you had my new scope. the un peacekeeping force on paper $11000.00 strong, although they weren't in the south keyvi, which is where m. 23 have now gone. they've got the congolese forces. you have a motion res, reportedly from romania, and from that been hired by the congolese. you had another peacekeeping force from the south african development community. that's the regional grouping. that was called semi d. c. that was malawi, and then particularly south african troop $714.00 south africans died. and you had

troops from the neighboring country, britain to more than 10000 soldiers that from burgundy and m. 23 has plowed ahead. have they not come by and an succeeded, despite all of those different forces only. and the purpose of dram $23.00 is to run the defense forces. i mean, when, when you read the, you and report is quite clear about what is happening. uh the we are fight scene based support military best able to, uh, jam gps system. or does that mean the means that the communities army cannot fly their plans in the area where the rep as are well as they said, not much of the run the military. we have a short up system, right? the shot, the defense system used by the m 23. you have not vision. got got going according to our african intelligence newspaper. they've actually mentioned that the king over the city of golden up. i'll go my was the was done. we've support us drones.

even the terrorist. ready us secretary general news interview, we false rank up the stated that the company 3, that's much more sophisticated with and we'd like to give it to you in forces. so is the context to look at the what is actually happening there? now as you're talking about the different armies involved and they come with different mandates, the false intervention brigades about came 2012 was actually in action of subject. where do you, when do you not want this force to be outside of the you interest diction. that's the way i actually added. so what were you seeing over the years is best said nations as she bolted it back to pieces from a military perspective, to bring about that. but i'm also clear the path to peace is not going to come. community 30 means right is going to come to diplomacy in 2012 oh, was stopped in 23. was aggressive diplomacy. that what are we talking about? western nations and international institutions, such as the world bank,

the african development bank. all we've allocated to run to the scene for action caused to be promoted pressure internationally for reigning game around right now that type of action is both reached. we strongly believe because one does economy because of one does meet, that we support from the western nations. but this essential for them to take similar actions to any and around that to be able to go back to the negotiating table to discuss about peace and stability by military solution will not. and the conflict is the problem. okay, let me let, let me bring that, let me bring it on to their own that point. i mean, is there anything militarily that can stop and 23 i, one of the things i noticed when they took, because who they also took, couple moves, which is apparently big airport, which cuts off all of the supplies to the comedies on me. that's right. i mean i, i would just have to agree with others that i think that it is, it is a question of relate, being able to militarily, engage and disarm,

not just necessarily this arm, but neutralize rwanda. persuade and create incentives for the rwandan government to in turn contain and controlled m 23. and i think that at the diplomatically there, there are a lot of weaknesses in such an effort. and you know burundi has withdrawn some of its forces. i don't know if the reports from this week are true or not. they withdrawn, i believe, a $10000.00 of those of those, those forces you've gone down, the other hand is deploying a bit more. i think there's still quite a lot of uncertainty and back and forth. and the region, i believe, would like to have a sort of a status quote settlement. but i think that the, the real pressure has to come from even further outside of the continent. it will

have to come from us further strengthening. it's a negative message against the golly to contain kigali and to persuade kigali to control and 23. and really that, that, that is really the level could hold. but i do believe that there are major concessions that could in shots that will have to make an ultimately, it will, there will have to be some sort of a negotiation that really takes into account the interests of rwanda. the interest of m, $23.00, the, the territorial integrity of the congo. these people and of the government in, in contrast. but that, that is, will be diplomatic and a political process, but without strong strong leverage against one guy, we will not get that of the law. he, i'm in terms of the m 23 and where they are moving. they seem to be moving south

rivera, that is right on the border with the run the on the shore of lake tank mika, less than 30 kilometers away from bush in bordeaux, which is the main city, and used to be the capital. i'm going with involving more or more countries will come on so you can do in a minute more and more countries. i mean, they already have trips that are under more and more countries are getting directly involved. refugees of screaming into burgundy. yes. cities. i think even why we are discussing the large strategic issues at play. well, we shouldn't lose sight of these. the people who are paying the ultimate price, they can release the children and women in the see. last year i was in goma. i meant women, you know, like not a single one of them has no experience and you know, sexual agenda based violence. and some of them told me the people who committed

these people as young as my children. so i think we shouldn't lose sight of that. but i think to the question around, but only is the fact that we're on the and we're on the other one. that doesn't, didn't julie, who religion should be close, that he's a rental group that is based inside, brutally and inside the d. c. that the moonbeams think of being supported or unless they are being supported by one back to the stabilize a blow. indeed. so therefore that no just the interest of the see the other moving interests of other countries that are using the d. c as a base from where they destabilize no, just the d. c, but countries in the region. but fundamentally though, we have to get back to the question of what, what he's in the interest of the see everybody has their own interest. d. c also has its own interest, and i think fundamentally,

the citizens of the c o will continue to in do, agreed. yes, human rights violation women and children being ripped on suspend lee as a tune of role by various actors, including allied militias dot what with the with the d. c. government that has to stop. it doesn't matter how in secured wanda fields, but i think a lot of the people did the specially these, these are much more than it is getting right now. come out a um, earlier angela mentioned briefly you guns and forces because we got burundi now. and then you kind of, they've gone to the capital of a tory province bonia. do we think because in the past they have been allied with rolanda, but they've also recently been in support of the d. c. do we know exactly what you've gone to is doing that? i'm sorry to keep or referencing the you in a group of experts because that being very clear and showing the evidence right now

the m 23 had been trimming. incompatible according to do you in a group of experts, not only that. so they've been entering the the r c from that you've done the border, the test. so you're yeah. so you are suggesting that uganda is on the side overall one, the end, the end 23, just to put it simply is that, is that your understanding? yes, but it's not me. it's the human group of expert for sending that to us, or the security council waste. nothing opinion from, from a southeast defects on the ground. right. so we do know that you pdf commander, and that's the, you've done that in people's defense. plus the military had been instructors in the camps where the emperor entries training. we also know that m 23 crosses the border gun. that's a d r c. we've being stuff, but you've gone down the, the government, media, terry, or the border patrol of whatever the may have. and a recommendation from the proof of expertise that the govern government needs to take action around the evidence that's been presented to them,

which they have not. so i will not be surprised to see you know, the front uh extra to create on the top. but i think it's important to point out with the less and less than to eventually buy the interest of the commodities. the interest of the commodities lies into purchasing a home. buyers, independence based speech, where a sais, the colors, minerals, colors, land color, resources to belong to the communities people. you should be exposed to the benefits of the people. what we're seeing is not that right, as we are talking about the tooling, the interest of a, for an extra, a runs of what they need on the, in the country. mean our resources need it for the full industrial relations. continue to come up with the condo complex goats and he's being exposed to come was lead. jim is also being exposed to gold. and so, right, so we must know as to even talk about the complexity of the conflicts that in the

real root cause is control of homeless mineral wealth. and he has a pure of homeless history, the multiple fact. so to address that is for miss shows what go swimming. these are these minerals to all corporations accountable. that's why i've seen the sanctions . i got it wrong terms come back a bit where he pointed up very clearly. right? is london defense. the minister is facilitating the export of minerals from the or seat to the outside world, not, not speculation. so this is what we have functioning him. putting the names of the companies right. the keystone, the holding racist are in paris i believe. and also in the u. k, that is issued be presented as an mysterious conflict. what we do not know the actors. we do not know the companies africans, i want them to the killing of charter. okay. and to the, i was interested to read that some embassies in control. so the west of embassy is including the us, the u. k. have, if i q a suit most the stock because that worried about the situation. i mean,

do you think there was any possibility m. 23 may want to push all the way to the capital and just a quick point of geography. that's over 1500 kilometers away. but of course there is the president of 1997 as yes, that's true, but that wasn't, it was a different time. i mean the government and, and the contract, the d r. c. government was significantly weaker. i think i've had less experience with a waging and a kind of a dance with rolanda, with k golly. at that time. and in this, in this regard, i think that and that i'm, i'm very skeptical that m 23 will go all the way to can shasta, i don't think it needs to go all the way to control. so i mean, i think it needs to threaten to, i think that the threat of its military success and its control of eastern the

r c and its success so far. and it's support from regional players really will create a kind of another lever, a kind of lever and negotiation shading position with kinshasa. i do believe that the real ambition here is to have control of conch goes bare minerals, particularly from that part of the region. i know that m $23.00 just alone and taxes, i think paid to it for extraction of some critical minerals makes almost $10000000.00 a month or more just from that, not from the actual cost of, of, of actual profits. so it's a kind of in slave meant of the people of the congo, a to production of an extraction of these minerals and, and, and to the global sort of financial system that supports it,

the extraction. but i don't believe that m 23 can actually go all the way to control. so we will see though, i mean, if the us doesn't really engage, if there's not enough international pressure, i think between now and the next few months, then perhaps i would change my mind. but simply by putting more pressure, like they did, i think in 2012 this a similar situation occurred and there was a significant pressure from the us then. and that pulled back. i'm 23. i was occupation of go my then so i, i don't, i'm a bit more skeptical. thank you very much. i enjoy last night you tool, i guess today come validate most of who really angela of them, but cell strong and of the law here. how lucky, thanks so much for watching. remember, you can always see this program again and all our recent editions. by visiting the inside story page elders, they were adult calm with on facebook. if you'd like to post your comments.

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handed the remains of his rarely captive should be the best of the red cross top, the israel's prime minister. benjamin netanyahu accused the group violating the ceasefire deal or turning the wrong body on thursday. as or else as a forensic team has been sent to confirm the identity of the body. and i says last investigation into the era. i know all day reports, i'm jordan's capital i'm on she said because these very government and put a single starting a band out just from reporting from inside the israel and the occupied west bank. it will take the forensic teams in israel several hours before they can determine the identity of the remains handed over to the red cross.