friends are being killed in this country. we're blessed. we live in harmony with all different regions. all does he have a wealth, travels to south america for a guy, and he's remington, as long as the of late and they enjoy doing it. we have a rich country in terms of diversity. dot is something that we can celebrate grammar time in diana, on alex's era the jail found the leader of the p k. k tools on the curtis group to this fund that follows for decades of fund team, a tech here, costing 40000 lives. so was coming now and what impacts could it have on? so okay, i'm the region. this is inside story the

other than welcome to the program. i'm the clock. there is no alternative to democracy in the pursuit and realization of a political system. a reasonable statement base would agree. but when those very woods come from the lead of a group that is for the bits a conflict for, for decades. while it's world news. and they were part of the statements, but at the atlanta founder and leader of the code has done work, is bought t o p k k issued from his jail cell in a prison on a tucker shine. and he's being behind boss, since he was abducted in kenya by tucker, special forces to say that 26 years ago and man revered by his people but reviled by many and took a he now wants his group to lay down at toms and despond. his coolness of major regional political significance reverberating across not just took a but serious a rack and around to so why now could it and decades of conflict? and what might the political implications for took a b and the region will discuss all this and more with, i guess. but 1st,

this report from michael soon, sharp of culture and addicted to complex. that's claim, tens of thousands of lives. us up the level of chill on the lead of the co dish woke us pop t o p k k says that someone for the group to lay down its arms and to spend nothing of the statement was read out by politicians from the protocol dish, peoples equality and democracy party of to be visited him in a prison on an island in the sea of my motto of is steinberg. so you and he's of the groups congress to rectify his deficient will not put you on the b, that's the total grades they should lay down that um and the p k. k most dissolve itself took as president jeff tire and other ones. a party has called on the groups, the heat or challenge is called the message of the p k. k is found to was created

with celebrations in southeastern toad, key, the country's code to hop land if waterline beams, this appropriate. we will ebay him because this issue cannot be solved with weapons and force because we don't want to see blood on all those steps anymore. enough is enough. turkey and the p k. k had been at war for more than 4 decades. but the talk is from industry attacking targets within the country and the neighboring iraq. and sylvia and colorado has designated the p k. k as a texas group, as has the us and it's best and allies. at least 40000 people have been killed in the conflict. as the b k date came to establish an independent code the state. although in recent times, the focus has been on retail autonomy and rights for pets, which helen has been serving a life sentence since 1999 after being convicted of treason. and his goal comes

months of to enter a suggested he could be drawn to parole. if the p k gave renounces violence and dispense in a peace process between the p k k and the toughest state collapse addicted to go, the group has since launched regular attacks in the country. some believe that will challenge called may bring historic changes was the, the, i'm starting the picture, probably the, the courteous struggle post, right. and remember, this will be given a more legitimate for internal and external really, despite being in china, a challenge remains a huge, influential leader for many cuts. his goal for b is, could have major implications for the region by the p. k. k has flits and syria, iran and iraq, and where his announcement was met with the products and syria co disposes whole significant touch trees. but what influence of children has over them is not care.

they come on the region. welcome, trelin statesman saying the call is not directed at his forces in yeah, the issue is related to the p j. k. the issue of laying down arms and it has nothing to do with us and it's nothing directed at us and our forces. turkey is will with the p k. k has led to a sweeping crack down against pro kurdish parties and recent yes, the to cause government has accused them of links to the group. for tenants called for peas is being seen the many as a challenge to reset ties, but others awesome skeptical. the outcome may be positive on the consumption, these arches 0 for inside story as well. this all started when the peak of a launch a non insurgency against tech a back in 1984. but as far as is urls that presents in the neighboring region, no freights from mountain strongholds in northern iraq and is linked to the y p g

fight is in syria, a key ally of the united states. the p. k. k also has forces in iran. all right, let's get into this with, i guess, straight away n n a. we have um a who's gainesville j, a non resident fellow at the atlantic council's middle east program director of tucker studies at the on the center for strategic studies. and caro is h, i have the senior fellow and geo politics, international security, and middle east studies at the role united services institute of defense and security think tank and in the united states in virginia. or indeed my have to sell a non resident senior fellow at the foreign policy research institute. here's what laws the focuses on regional kurdish affairs. a very warm welcome to oh, it is a big deal. and date the story. i'm actually highly. i'd like to start with you for decades of almond struggle for 2000 killed, and now the prospect to pace before we delve into the nitty gritty of old is,

could you just contextualize as far as just how much of a turning point in history could this be if the p k k and they do lay down their own. thank you for having me on the program. so i'm glad you said good because of course there are multiple possibilities and potentiality is here. but in the event that this does actually leads to a genuine piece and the, the lang donna barnes by the p k k. then i think the ramifications are quite significant, not simply for turkey, but also in syria, a somewhat in iraq as well. and i think that that's the, the key is through here over the past few months. there been a number of, frankly, seismic changes in the region. and they were unrelated, but will interact with each other in quite significant ways. so the fall of the acid regime, for example, keeping in mind that for example, when it comes to the p, k, k, many of their leaders had saw a refuge in,

in this area under the situation. going back many, many years since i alter, learned himself was based out of syria and very. ready the on until the mid late ninety's, right. when you think about the coming to power of, uh, president trump, in the united states that has had an impact in terms of support for produce forces in ne, syria. so there are a number of things that have happened over the past few months that i think it will come together. okay, well, we'll get into those things that shortly. the short will get into all these things shortly, but not having to sell it for us. what does this mean at this moment for goods of to 40 is, is this, is this, the feats is this disappointment? is this disillusion mental is this moment moments of opportunity that the struggle of 40 years has yielded to really depends on who you are asking the but the,

the consensus among the majority of curves the in the region is that uh, you know, this is the moment of the hope uh maybe it is offering a glimmer of hope that the longest sending conflict that as you said, has claimed uh over 40000 lives so far across a period of uh for the case of conflict. uh. and might be actually uh, coming to an end that houses are also, you know, given the complexity and complications of this situation, people are old. so treating this uh, with quiet uh, you know, a significant amount of, of skepticism. it is not that people are expecting. there is going to be a new sort of a quick and easy fix is the, this is definitely not going to be a straightforward, smooth, and linear process, but we'll be most probably, even in the best case scenario, if uh, some sort of a, uh, you know, of an agreement is actually going to be achieved and peace is going to be realized

. we're going to be witnessing ups and downs us throughout this process. and it's not going to, you know, be something that will happen in a matter of weeks or even months. probably, and i'm off from your point of view from where you're sitting and incorrect from your perspective. uh, do you agree with that? that is not going to be a straightforward process that perhaps this is being greeted with skepticism skepticism, to kentucky. so yes, i'll use the to key is breaking out to see how duplicates come. did you this should be, where do we x and how to protect the serial branch most will keep due to act or this is the creation. however, we have done that. i knew was saying this, the statement about a 100 on does not come out of nowhere because the 2 contractors and strategic has pushed this to happen in the past in 2015. the key was function woburn, nebraska into cities in the southeast. so the 2 here, now the peak,

it has no operational cap of the 2 types of security level for introduced. se the peak case, a per line of infiltration from you walk into to get has to be crushed the ticket and see some of the huge pressure, but losing all of the code to know on the investment site to do freight service. so with all of these coming to get to the turkish concert has some stuff that he has achieved quite a lot. and now the callback, la jolla then gets the opportunity for the p k k n for the cookies. probably to get spill together to get with of the terrorism aspect and to and gauge phone mean products. this is the may, the thing that i provide you here the most. because even if the key doesn't, they don't it's weapon. now we have the chance that the tool could, this is according to can pop this may dispense themselves from the p k, k and it was take it the, it, the so it's a possibility that this might be right to kick it into 2 branches, documented quite the car link and the movie as we speak and apart from i think we ought to pick him,

accepted the despond and discernment the sofa and said we have yet to see how the p k case come to the district. good way to this, but don't let me be clear. if this phase, the turkish made it to come to terms of equations would only be facilitated after this and took it has now to move and how you ground, much more than it has. it has a deep ever before. all right, which leads me ha ha to the quote that i read at the beginning of the program. there is no alternative if to democracy in the procedure and realization of a political system as well as one has said. and it's not something that he would have said back in the 19 eighties and nineties is nothing is not something he would have written today. here think that the channels of democratic politics on now a newly open so i'm not sure that it's about it being newly opened as much as i think a pragmatic assessment of where the kurdish question actually is given everything

that your, your other guests have mentioned. and also, as i described, visa viewed the fall of the acid regime and frankly a change in the. busy remains of the rules based international. ready under which is of course become incredibly fragmented following russia's invasion of ukraine as well as, of course, israel's more on gaza. i think that there's a recognition not simply within the b k k. but more generally, throughout the region, the look we're, we're not going to be able to count on external forces at all. we're going to have to rely on engaging within our own region in order to try to find solutions for particular problems. and i think that that's part of what's going on here. i think that the, i think that what you learn and probably of the quite a few among the, the, the kurdish leadership more generally. because they wouldn't have done this simply on his own. i recognize that, you know, the,

the balance of power has definitely shift bids and in order to get the best possible outcome for their people for their cause. this is the way to go in the habit because we don't know if the p k. k will accept the system has to be reckoned ratified by the p k. k party congress does not. yes, absolutely. and that was also mentioned in the of the loud yolanda announcement. yes sir, the party leaders in the mountains can do a little bit racket. curtis, um, i have uh set over the past couple of weeks that while let, you know, they will come this kind of initiative from the old yolanda and you know, the possibility of an agreement of a peace agreement between the old yolanda and the turkish government. above defaults, have been very much clear that uh, there has to be some sort of a uh, you know, legal and constitutional uh, solution to the uh, you know, a longer standing curtis conflict. uh, an issue in the country. in fact, a few days ago,

more odd career language is the one of the senior military commanders of the p k k . a. so do you know that there have to be also a steps addressing the faith of the groups fighters and leaders in the mountains. and you know that this was not the kind of girl that would be um, you know, just the spot ended upon an order from college alarm that there need to be there needs to be practical steps agreed upon by all sides for this process to actually move forward in practice and you know that that is what also a lot of people have been pointing out basically since yesterday that as much as they or chill on the announcement is important is a historic and offers on opportunity for peace. this needs to be followed by uh, you know, practical steps on the ground in terms of, um, offering uh, you know, certain uh, rights to the curtis people in turkey in for writing these arrives in the turkish

constitution. and also uh, you know, other important details such as the issue and an amnesty for the 2 fighters. i'm leaders facilitate team or allowing uh, you know, refuge for the part of the senior leadership in other countries. the in any, either in the region or in the west. so there are all these, the important details that, that need to be worked out on. so just looking at the announcement itself, i should not really, you know, give the impression that the piece has been achieved and the, you know, that everything is going to fall into place automatically from here on there is a lot in terms of the need to greet you of the process of an agreement between the, the p j. k. and the more broadly the curtis movement in turkey and the turkish government that needs to be worked out. and i'm a, we've something we've already alluded to. how much do you think the changing dynamics in syria are effectiveness?

yeah, i think so. yeah, it's a huge part of this because in the past the peak instructed us quite well, came out and see where they were. almost the grew close to establishing an autonomous region. didn't know if he's in a pre dom nicky. i'm up area which was quite the one that the tradition majority of the pgp try to step this down. however, they try stuck on the wash as a protection, and they trusted the americans support the trusted and payment for the desktop publishing and the one in reference christ. now that you are new investing supplies on knowing that that russia is no longer a dr. protected by p, p k, k 2 in branch to y, p g, and d as yet. there is no, don't that does have to be seen. they kind of named but it appears that the top optimization but eventually also bit talk i'm serious with the patient is not the 1010 ship and the not sustainable. so that this is something that made me and i do nothing to upload and then posey, this quote may result in a change of attitude probably to come d the ship and

d. c ma'am bench p t k. but this call can be used as an excuse for internal voices who think that despite that should not continue any more. i probably heard from the later the yes to me saying that this does not apply to us or law. yes it does. he does, but he wants also to each of the schools and so far the can be leadership was quite a game to speed with them. i suppose now with a large amounts calling, his hands has been in power against his own support base, who did not agree to a deed without moscow said if they say the between the stiff and them must cause this it, but also facilitate the post this in to get but let me be clear about one particular thing in the past and the piece of process we try to negotiate to supplement between 2 cans to predict k. as of now we don't have to negotiate to set them up to something similar to that. there will be no tit for tat. they wouldn't be, as i've said, no separate stage, no for the tournaments each. oh,

not even culture. the rights, especially in the book codes. but this is a government victory. and to get a basic, you know, put uploads or if he can succeed this, that they can get into how service they need the code. these put it to get movement in to get within the limits of to, to, to stomach and key. okay. i think, yeah, that's the see. i think the best thank you i'm, i was in the how much is, is that something that's going to be satisfactory to cuts across the region? because effectively what we're saying is that this is the end of the dream of a avenue independent cody state. sure, well, it is important to realize that the p k. k has the, you know, officially given up uh on demanding, i mean, defendant curtis of state in turkey does not even been asking for federalism up until recently. you know, it made the mass for some sort of uh, autonomy. yeah. within the borders of the state of cherokee. but the, it's also important to really realized that the origin lines message was quite

general. and in some ways also a cryptic which allows a lot of room for interpretation. it can be a stretch in terms of what it contains, what it implies, and what a, you know, things to achieve. and we have already seen signs of that. for example, you know, the 3rd case, a government and the ruling dog party officials and turkey have said that, oh, jones, coal for disarmament. and there's a lucian of the p k. k. should also include the sds, is also uh, you know, important to note here that the following the press conference or the event to yesterday were or july announcement was a read out that the one of the damn party, which is the pro curtis part in turkey. one of their m p is the service already on there that all gilan had also told them verbally, that this announcement can not really, you know, be realized without

a democratic and legal framework to support that. and so there will be a lot of detail that has to be worked out then even though or deal on in these announcement. uh, you know, said that the curves are no longer even asking for autonomy, which was, you know, sort of the bare minimum of the curtis, the minds a, at least up until recently. there is going to be a certain degree of resistance to that within the broader current aisha public and political move mine. so there has to be some sort of a trade off for otherwise this announcement would be, you know, practically nothing but just some announcement or declaration of surrender and calculation. and i doubt the given, you know, the long history of the curtis issue, inter key, which goes, you know, way beyond m d for the p k. you can tracy back to, to the late autumn and times event. and in particular, you know,

sense displacement of the 3rd category, probably given this a historical def, historical dimension. and the roots of this issue that neither of july nor the p k, k. really, or for that matter, if and you know, the curtis empties in the chart, this problem and we'll be in a position to say that they are going to accept all the conditions of the product. let's come over here in terms of that, does it lucian, of the p k. k. i, thanks for how much or nothing concret in return really. right, well let's put that point to a hell. yeah. do you think that will, it will be possible to produce a satisfactory tradeoff between to k and the end the p k. k. that will enable because to continue with the dream of what's on them in some sense so that there are 2 things here that i think on part one of the possibilities are open. okay?

so you could see the, the, the p, k, k go forward to this, you can see it splits. and as you alluded to earlier, i don't see signs of that at the moment, but i think it's entirely possible. but i think that this and this is my 2nd point, there's a broader moment as a result of the fall of the acid regime in syria. that i think is really sending ripple effects. and not just in ne syria with the kurds. but more generally that low um the, the conditions that allowed for this sort of armed struggle or this sort of fight within turkey and in the region more generally over what is considered to be a historical card. this done the, those conditions of fundamentally changed. and i think that when they see particularly as your other gus mentioned, the americans not being willing to support the c f in ne syria when they see the uh, the, the, the empowering of

a new regime in damascus that is very clearly aligned with ankara in many ways i think that they realize that there is a historic moments here and this one that they can try to take advantage of and salvage as much as they can, or one that they can fight against. and right now it seems that at least or to lot has chosen the former ends of them are, as far as tech is concerned, what will 3rd one's position be on a p k, k affiliates say for example in northern syria, moving forwards now. so the tricks position is great, it took, you would not turn away if you have to be an autonomous region in syria, all to remain as a separate product within the c. i mean it's when it's done, most of us would not accept this. and here we have done that stand as the from the speaker, just it took, it has a stablish a new way it can be reached. you quit good. do to get as an a close cooperation with the muskets, which sylvia to kissing good coordination should include the nation. but the rocky crew this time. and you are concerned,

isn't it the expect the support for the genetics quote to get has agreed with the iraqi government on the p k. k being a bent organization in the lock and key one has to be defeated. reach the new one, but one of the major support this of the p 2 k as what so is this, it indicates that ticket would not to do it. that's a alternative and po, separate entity within the army. there is only one grateful. this is to this find this um engage politically and click the key here to key, even though it has a pro se is spend the best them clicking the reason and put them in this new atmosphere. if there is no more the type of terrorism, there's no more the security aspect that could occur discretion and to get if there's no more the type of it to the shuttles to encourage politics into the society. i expect that the 2 people put it to despair open not very much that the tooth was stupid, opened up pretty much. and we can be able to discuss many different things that we

have available to discuss some things that i'm off of that to have it to you at agreement with the p k. k must include part of a laundry arrangement that includes equal status and, and the democratic rights of a tech is curtis population. because if that doesn't happen at the very least, this could once again spill over into violence. couldn't. yeah, absolutely. i mean, the, you know, it remains definitely to be seen what kind of details would be worked out between both sides of the curtis uh, representatives and the turkish government. and uh, you know, whether, uh, these kind of a, this kind of agreement or the points agreed upon would be actually given a legal and constitutional law, legitimacy and framework. however, again, as i said before that you know where the p take, the issue should be really seen as part of a dig around broader. uh, you know,

problem an issue in turkey. that goes back to the very origins of the targeted republic. there is definitely a way forward in terms of uh, keys and that in terms of settling this conflict, it definitely depends on the uh, you know, good wheel and uh, the, the understanding of the interest of both sides. but uh, you know, even though there has been, uh, conflict over the past several decades or in the early republican era, between the curves on the charge of republic that are just government. that does not mean that, that has to be the, you know, the future of course, of this relationship that there is a historical precedents which can be drawn upon cold upon in terms of charging and new passing turkey on. i think, you know, as long as there is some serious goodwill and if negotiations are being conducted in good faith on both sides,

but in particular uh on the side of the turkish government, given that it to the dominant, the party in this conflict that there is a very good and decent chance for peace. who knows this may yet, harold, a new era of equitable peace attends when we're going to have to leave it. the thanks very much indeed for joining us. i'm a risky little dick. ha ha, i'm a habit seller. thanks very much indeed. as i thought you'd say is watching 1st and all the story is recovery. just go to my website that out. is there a dot com? and if you want to take the discussion on, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. and of course you can also join the conversation on x. a handle is, it's a inside story for me, mccloud, the whole team has escobar, the effect of shifting power dynamics probably have to do is flip switch and he has

a thorough tearing state is 1st made in is to take a foot unity or any weakness there would show up thought takes on the biggest one out here in a dog chrome with no electricity, fucked. my id shows us how she makes a living. she's displaced from cup to has been missing since the war began. she's been shoved. cutting with has 7 children in a school room. she just had the, the income is $5000.00, so then he's pounds. that's just to us dollars. this is and he said, custom says more than 70 percent of the people just based by the conflict women and children, most of them are really unhappy with those or are raising their children alone. aside from displacement, video, human rights organizations say they've are just an endless cases of a function of sexual abuse. again. so then these women, local assistance communities organize web shops for hundreds of women and girls, willing to acquire all types of skills that are on is hospitalization. but these

women are showing, could have simians, and the local community insta, not just fine to help the, to hello nick lock into how the top stories here on out is era. and the 1st phase of the guns us these 5 deal is scheduled to end on saturday. but with him i saying the on know towards taking place. well, the 2nd phase, its features, and the group accuses is rather breeching some parts of the agreement target resume has more from 0, bala and central casa gaps that we is ryland mos regarding negotiations for the 2nd phase are still wides. as a regional mediators, us crumbling to find a common ground, but when both sides due to.