and, and a palestinian chest, going to call in every journey to discover the roots of our cruising. and don't call the the oldest are a cookbook. it isn't just a cookbook. it's parked recipes and purse socio cultural mix. flo, how a prominent figure broke his passion for food with him from baghdad to southern spain on al jazeera well, the 1st of a 3 part series presents 21st century dishes derived from 1000 years old arab recipes flavors of the our golden age. on al jazeera for us declares the south african and basset or persona non grata sighting his criticism of his front of ministration. south africa expresses redress the expulsion of its own voice for it is taking no action in return. can relations be repaired, so this isn't a side story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm getting you navigate some diplomatic relations between the u. s. and south africa. i have hit a new low after ambassador, but he made us who was told he was no longer welcome in the us bypassing diplomatic norms, the us sex real estate market. rubio made the declaration on x on friday. he cited a right wing website report on comments rest, who had made just hours earlier. critical of the trump administration. south africa has expressed regrets at the expulsion saying it remains committed to building a good relationship with the u. s. and wants to matter to be handled with diplomatic respect. it hasn't taken any action and response, but the incident places further strain on already frayed relations, south africa's genocide case against israel at the international court of justice. ties with iran and lou a new land reform law or some of the difficulties. so is the expulsion or results

of protocol violations by the ambassador or something much deeper on can the relationship be repairs? we'll try to find out from our guests shortly. but 1st this report from laura con. obviously we're going to wait for a re spacing politician who hates america, and it's president strong was from us secretary of state monk who rubio about south african on bus, that abraham russell for washington expelled him from his diplomatic post ruby and refers to a news article on the far right website break bought, which reported that was who had referred to the make america great again movement. as white supremacist, south africa's response the expulsion of its diplomats was meshes with the presidency saying it remains committed to a mutually beneficial relationship to. since you were tons, office president donald trump has been critical of the country. last month he

signed an executive order costing all of us 8. he accuses the government of doing terrible things, referring to a new law, allowing the state to expropriate land for public purposes in some cases without compensation. and although no one has to be seized, senior white house advise that you must, who was born in south africa, described to legislation as racist ownership rules. it also rejected must claim that his styling to satellite company can't operate that because he's not black. the state to comes up, right assess, still a link hadn't applied for license likely adding tension. last month the us gift g 20 meetings in south africa, which currently holds the rotating presidency. it also means that, so that's a good now has the opportunity to open up it's trading partners even more. i mean, we just come out of the h. e. use that africa summit. we saw the 4400000000 the euro investment

package around. could you go areas like just energy manufacturing, vaccine production. another point of conflict is south africa's case against washington's allied israel at the international court of justice, the, the for it so, so they've got to take this data is applied to the in i, c, j. and also by taking that mid to now to the international criminal court will add a walk, right? so that has it turned to be the call of the dispute. so the some diplomatic homeless believe russell's comments overstepped his role and box it up. and the departure from price quote, resulted in his departure. south africa has made it clear that it will not expel in american abbas to that in response nor com for inside story was a 0. the. okay, let's, i'll bring in our guess, we have milanni for a vote who is a political analyst and

a former itself, african and bassett, or to ireland. she's joining us from cape town, mark 5, please. the founder and president of the public relations for off the record strategies, and also a former us deputy national security adviser, 1st with easy communications. joining us from washington, dc and in brussels. frank garrett's, an assistant professor and the history of international relations departments have to put trust, university, specializing an african history on diplomacy. welcome to you. you all. thank you so much for your time. milani's. so this was just the latest spots and a series of incidents as we were hearing in the report. but look, the south african presidency has said that the move to boots russell was quote, regrettable calling on all responses to the situation to remain diplomatic and follow expected protocols as a former diplomat yourself, can you give us a sense of the protocol in place that needs to be adhered to in these types of situations and whether they and bassett or did indeed break protocol as well. i

mean i haven't seen i wasn't on the webinar with these comments were made nor have i been able to find a full transcript of this page. so it's a bit difficult to comment exactly on, on what he sent, whether he broke protocol but, but it's important to note that he brought him right. so yes, he was a antibiotic activism. yes, the one with the politician, but he's also seasoned to come out to in fact, he was south africa's ambassador to the washington between 20102015. so when brock obama was there, and you know generally was loaded as a very, very good ambassador. so i think that's the 1st point to make 2nd, please. yes, of course, from time to time i'm positive, do things that annoy the host country and upsets them or they make mistakes, but they are usually then steps that are taken long before investors get expelled. um, you know, if they personally made a mistake, they would usually be called info's by the host countries department or the

equivalent of the department of foreign affairs. and they were thinking, i never heard of of talking to them. and then of course being the next step would be that they would be discussions between the, the, the president of the ministers of foreign affairs, even on a presidential level. so to kick somebody out of the country is a very extreme one thing to do. and it's usually handled through but channels to us and, you know, it's a 2 years ago. so at the end of 2020, to the american, about the american abbas to allow us to bring it to. and so africa, q, south africa without providing any evidence that they were learning weapons onto the rush and shipped a dropped coast to cape tom. and, and of course, the norm was damage to south africa's economy, the markets coming to the ground, we can do cetera. but don't forget them, just kick off to invest in fact, and that's the state until very recently. and the things were handled to back tunnels. he was called in for the discussion of the department of foreign affairs, etc. so to really kick somebody out on the basis or if so somebody on the basis of

a tweet is very uncommon. i've never heard of it before and certainly would not be regarded as noble. profitable look what just one more for you, maloney. i mean from the trump uh, perspective from the trump camp market. rubio says that russell is a quote, race beating politician. referring to these comments he made accusing trump of promoting global white supremacy. i mean, it, is that within the rebate of an impasse it or to say such things. well, if you don't mind, again, i don't know the context with reaching that was said, but i would think it's not a very wise and a very diplomatic thing to say if you all that i'm boss of the so, you know it's, it's usually, you know, you would stay appear of the kind of controversy if you, if you all of the representative of the country. okay, fine mark what sam baset or have known. but what he had said would lead to around

if occasions do you think one would think, i mean the, the 1st rule of, in bassett or is represent your country and represent the interest of your country and do it in a way that is diplomatic. and i think that the ambassador was saying such a thing, it really did not help and probably the usher through his, his persona non grata of a situation with the us secretary of state is that i think that in the us, the south african relationship is far more important and powerful than any one man or any one diplomat of the statement that was put out from the south african president kind of laid out that he wants to reset essentially what the relations between the 2 countries, south africa and us us is south africa's number 2, largest trading partner, it's extraordinarily important. the relationship has been frayed, as we talked about with mister musk and mr. trump, the series of executive orders cutting off usaid. so there's a time for

a reset. of the south african president is looking to propose a new trade proposal with united states best buy, getting rid of the investor bringing in somebody new i think will help to foster hopefully a better long term relationship between the 2 countries. okay, look, we're going to drill down into some of these issues right that you just mentioned, but let me just ask you this and you talk about south africa wanting a reset. mark, what about the us? do you think the trump camp once a reset? i would hope so, then i think that with the tweets of the social media post put out by the secretary of state, that was there. it's have to say, okay, let's start, let's start over again. there are important issues, important trade and diplomatic things in the future. that the us in south africa has to do, especially as 2 of the leading countries and south africa's important not just an app for couple of larger than that. and in the south africa is number one. trade

partner is china. who is the us is number one, competitive, and competitor and the trade world? well, it's china. so the us should work towards working more closely with south africa so they can have a better trade relationship. and then in the weeks, the months ahead of frank waited on this for us. what do you make of both the south african response as well as the, the american response? or um, yeah. so i think the big question is how much influence does musk and the right wing ideology have in setting out foreign policy? i don't know if it's the drum and the situation has the diplomatic. so ness or did the problematic the same thing, the sort of factor in a gauze, ukraine, all these as the relationship with, with your ok with the wrong i would, i would say that a lot of this a lot of this,

the diplomatic decision making has really been shaped by these right wing conspiracy. this right wing conspiracy is thinking on the internet which has been one of the major, a 101 of the big major voting blog for trump. and i would see this sort of a breach of relationship with sort africa as step one of the steps that concepts has taken in the past months, months to sort of well, you know, to get his folders, depos, voters on board. so i don't know if it, how much of this is part of a, of a genuine diplomatic game, and how much is really genuinely deluxe, the driven by the need to show that the us wants to, well, re make international relations and really, also show to it's folders from wants to show it to his folders that says that that he's really taking this what is a right wing issue and to really to task,

to really make that important. what i find interesting is that by putting the gaza issue into this as well, it has given us that african government, the opportunity to take the moral high ground to not have to explain this land bill that has, has been voting. that has been voted for. they don't have to explain this because that's, you know, that's complicated and that's difficult to explain. but they seem to really, because they've been really emphasizing because the issue here is that is give settled moral high ground the same. ready we are, you know, we are, we have still developing is diplomacy that we find importance and, and we can sort of them for this. so that can government can frame this to sort of push back against these claims of outlined lands. expropriation, which is more difficult to to explain. okay, and look, we'll get on to gaza in a moment. but 1st frank, let me put this to you because on february 7th, so us president, he signed an executive order titled, address addressing agree, guess actions of the republic of south africa directing all us agencies to hold for

an 8 or assistance to south africa, instructing the state department, to prioritize refugee resettlement for a free, connors in south africa, who he says this is in quotes, are victims of unjust racial discrimination. i mean, how plausible is that argument and what you're saying is it, he's purely done this for his domestic audience and the us. so i guess that's the question i, i don't know, right? how much this is a political game as to what extent they're genuinely an ideological beliefs, that this as an issue that needs to be addressed, right? that's really difficult to assess from where we are sitting. and what is clear is that this is sort of the, the end point, a whole long evolution that's been going on for a decade down in which you have this sort of right wing international coalition in which these issues become more and more important. instead, africa has always been because of its particular history with our states, with both of our states has always been the sort of favorite topic of right wing

the right wing. the active is to show this is what happens when you integrate a society and it's really been always been a very, it's a favorite topic for the, for white wing activists to show what, what might happen is if you, if you are to the left wing and it really, i mean, it really sort of plays into the, the, into the diversity attend love that the trump administration wants to undercut. so i don't, i, i don't really see how this is. this is anything else than that. i would need to be convinced that it's, it's more than done simply another step in this long line of decisions that the companies for having this patient has been taking for the past month. and, and really showing that the, his agenda is that he wants to execute as a general frank, i say you're nodding along with what mark has to say. so i'll let you just jump in there and, and tell us what you're thinking at the moment. and also, how far back do you believe relations go between the right

swing offer, connors in south africa and the right wing in the us? i think for really us they need to focus on what are they actually want to accomplish. i think that the, the worry if i was a us, a business or financial entity. it's the south africa has a choice. they could potentially joined a more broader coalition, such as the bricks group that involves russia in iran and brazil, and other non us entities, non western entities, and work more on a potential trade partnership, global currency, and be a real competitor to the us if they chose to do so, and the us has to be cognizant of that mr. trump right now is in the middle of a terrace war with his neighbors, with your, with china, and the economy is on the brink right now. we've seen

a dramatic lower lawrence of the us stock market as last read amount of the value with a valuation of the last several weeks. and we're kind of working in kind of a, a difficult spot financially globally and economically. i think that's the worry and a lot of people's minds and this is not the time. i think a lot of people in the us business in finance are saying to pick another war with another country over something like this, especially as several of the other guy said of about politics and about kind of long seated challenges that the 2 countries have had with the different factions of the us electorate. so i think there's a real difficulty right now in america should take a step back. and i appreciate the south africans and the statement that was put off with the african president, the south africa president where you essentially said, okay, let's start over. essentially they said, our investor made a mistake. recall to coming back, we'll come back with

a new representative and let's start over again. and right, hopefully it's the trustees that milanni looked trumps order. the one i was referring to a moment ago on february 7th does mentioned the accusation of genocide that was leveled against israel by south africa, but really focuses on the south africans governments, affirmative action policies, right. but can you or explain to us what role you think that the gaza war on south africa's case that the i c j has played here and has been us really unhappy about what some says is south africa's strengthening of its international standing. because of this case that it took to the i c j, a good just to say are on demand issue and the discrimination that president trump is saying that's happening in south africa against white and particularly against for congress. i'm hoping to state of white and i am an author connor and both sets of grandparents were farmers and the accusations largest completely and actually incorrect. coincident comp has been mislaid by a small right wing lobby group of,

of con, speaking people in south africa community have access to all k as in america. and haven't made him if it's just a factory income. absolutely untrue. and in fact, the legislation that was part is completely in line with most european countries as well as an american they just nation when it comes to expropriation by the state. and there has been no expropriation of properties in south africa since 1994. despite the fact that that's why just that stage was owning about 98 percent of the land and. and secondly, the discrimination against, by just as much as we hired the constitution prohibits stuff in terms of god's well, it's difficult to know exactly. i mean, clearly it must have played some role to add to the whole complex situation. but, you know, 32 countries of now come out and supported south africa in terms of, of this quote case. and we don't see as some of the reactions to them. so it must have added to the issue. but clearly a, you know, that seems like the,

the race issues in south africa, the false accusations about race discrimination in south africa and play the bigger role or what's the sort of final straw on the camel's back that lead to the executive order. okay, frank deal on mosque of south african or, or origin of course has the presidency or what is their role the the eat on most because played and all of this. i mean, he's recently a to south africa, of discriminating against him by not allowing his starling satellite internet service to, to operate there. i don't think the influenza is, but since i'm been, i mean, it must be really weird if that. what if that didn't play a role in, in this decision, what i think is as striking is the extent to which he will musk seems to misunderstand the issue, being from south africa himself. because the land is for a patient bill, as has been best been said, is, is an improvement on an approximate era law that made,

that didn't really make that much sense. and what you see happening here, i think, is a fundamental misunderstanding by the us administration to understand what is actually going on in south africa. and let's, well, let's remind the viewers that the trump in his state of the union talked about the suit too. who knows what listen to is, but sort of was this baffling admission of not understanding how so that africa is organized, how that part of the world is organized. i think a lot of that really and is now sort of coming to the 4 where the trump administration doesn't understand that. an insult africa, there's been a long standing discussion about land. there's been a lot of unhappiness about, about the, the, the results that came with the end, the ballpark dates, and the discussion that was sort of integrated in a lot of discussions. but the conversations in 2015, the fees must fall,

protest where students were unhappy about a fee hikes at universities. and all this sort of debate about fundamental inequality is that africa then is, you know, being tackled in a sort african setting. and then us that ministration looks at this from the outside and complete seat completely pulls that into their own framework of, oh, this is the diversity issue. this is an issue where people are being at some mistreated and there's sort of this honesty when it comes to when it comes to handing out the and you can only the benefits, right? so that's, i think that's the most best way seeing here. okay. mark um, what about the issue of ukraine and russia right, the war there? because some in fact say look, relations became strain between the south africa and the us. even under the bi, isn't administration one south africa had taken that non outline stance on the war between russia and ukraine? i think that's right. i think that this has been simmering for some time,

leading back to russia's invasion of ukraine. and then you add the added elements of mr. trump's victory, then his out sized advisor. mr. musk coming into the picture with the baggage that he brings in as a citizenship of the south africa. now you bring in gaza the international courts and the, the attempts to bring that forward with genocide claims. all of that together means that the us in south africa have a, a difficult role ahead. but i think that, uh, bring in a fresh ambassador up in somebody, this is what mr. what mr. russell should have been doing was having these conversations with the incoming trump administration. and i think instead of that, that he was obviously simmering, potentially with, with some emotions that allowed him to then go on that on that web a website and read that conversation that made its way to the right wing media.

look, mark maloney, i'll come over to you in just a moment, but mart cuz you were saying a moment ago that there are obviously close trade relations between south africa and china for example. so if you look at the broad implications of all of this does less then push south africa to look elsewhere to other countries. i think that's the challenge, and i think that sounds good, mr. trump and his economic team and his diplomatic team have to keep focused on not just in south africa, but other countries as well. there are other places to go other choices to make, including china, including russia, including iran. and the us has to be cognizant of that and we have to be looking at the around the edges of our diplomacy and making sure that yes, we're not gonna agree with everybody on everything. that's impossible. but we can do is have a dialogue. and what we can do, do you have a conversation about how we're gonna work together in the future? okay. um allow me, how much support do you think is there in, within south africa itself, right? what for the government?

a band. and let's say it's policy when it comes to rest. so ukraine, it's not aligned status to exit the bricks, grouping to withdraw the i c, g i c j. case to basically align with you with the us. oh no, i don't think that would be a very popular position and so the title of the majority of people would not agree with that position. oh, we've heard of the majority of people will also say that all relationship with america has an important relationship generated as uh, as you've mentioned, austic and biggest trading partner. and, and also, you know, there's more than 600 american companies based in south africa. so it is an important relationship, and we would argue that you could hold those positions, you know? so how could it be meant that we're coming to the end of the program? and once a final thought from each of you, melanie, i'll start with you. how can it be mended? well, you know, south africa is democracy. it's built on the track that we are able to have to have difficult conversations across and rebuild relationships. we wouldn't have had

a democracy and our president as well to now full and building relationships. so i mean, so that i forget, is kenneth, very willing and is determined to rebuild this relationship on the magic level and hopefully that frank, what do you think? i, i mean, i think so definitely it has the has to, it has to show that it has a lot of economic that the relationship has a lot of economic benefits from listens to transactional diplomacy. it has a transactional logic and so that africa can show that it plays a big part diplomatically in the bricks, groups with russia, with around. and they can act as a diplomatic channel to a lot of countries that the us sometimes has a difficult time talking to. so i think that africa has a lot of weighing cards on the table. if we're going to use the, the trunk language. martha, i'll give the final word to you. what do you think? how can this relationship be mended? and if, if you look at it, sort of on a scale of $1.00 to $10.00, right?

where would you rate the us? south africa relationship right now? right, right now it's probably a 2 or 3 unfortunately out of 10, a dialogue has to be renewed and do ambassador as the south african president, his union is, has said what they want to work and put together a long term trade partnership. that could be a new way to look forward to the relationship in a way that's proactive, and that's helpful to both populations in both countries. okay, we'll leave it there. thank you so much melanie fervid, mark 5 for the in frank garrett's. thanks for joining us. thanks for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i'll just 0. com for further discussion and go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash adrian side story. turn the conversation on x or handle is a insights story from myself and the whole team here in delphi. thanks for watching, bye bye for the

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please visit the awards official website at w w. w dot h t a dr. q a, the main site and on the top stories on the out is there. you happens. hey, fees say they will hit back against the us. softest strikes across the country on site. today the us says several who the leaders are among the 53 people killed in those attacks. they say they will continue to carry out attacks and the red c until as well lift its blockade of gaza. what are the done in response to this american aggression the many armed forces carried out to

a specific military operation talk.